Topic on Talk:Wikimedia Release Engineering Team/GitLab

Jump to navigation Jump to search

Consultation, requirements gathering?

57
Summary last edited by Greg (WMF) 19:17, 2 September 2020 1 month ago

Please see GitLab consultation!

Legoktm (talkcontribs)

Is there going to be an actual consultation/RfC/gathering of requirements from the development community as to what is wanted out of a code review platform, and not just CI? Or did this already happen and I just missed it? The only thing I'm aware of is T167547 which was declined.

FWIW most of the feedback on Talk:Wikimedia Release Engineering Team/CI Futures WG/Requirements seems to have gone unanswered, so it's not clear to me exactly how to contribute to this process.

GIngersoll (WMF) (talkcontribs)

There won’t be an official RFC (or RFC-like) process for this. The Eng Productivity team has been working on CI planning for some time now and more recently taken up the question of code review based on feedback. After discussing with the Architecture team lead, we decided that an RFC process wasn’t the right choice.

We welcome, expect, and encourage feedback and recommendations along the way as we move to GitLab so that we can address as many needs as possible. That’s me saying: no one tool will address everyone’s needs and also we shouldn’t expect a complete 1:1 parity between GitLab and Gerrit.

Legoktm (talkcontribs)

Just to be clear, you're saying that a firm decision has already been made, and there's no turning back now?

If so, that's incredibly frustrating to hear, that a decision has already been made, in private, without consulting other technical community members. It gives the feeling that our opinions and values are not important enough to even justify asking for them, let alone incorporating them. I think many of us would've been excited about GitLab, but right now this process is leaving a sour taste in my mouth.

It's hard for me to now justify the time I've spent developing Gerrit-specific tooling over the past few months for people to use when it was clear that in the long run it would be worthless.

Tgr (talkcontribs)

Are there any guidelines on when an RFC-like process is the right choice? If so, are they public?

Naively I would think replacing one of the two essential tools all developers rely on is exactly the kind of thing where gathering feedback first would be the right choice. So this leaves me a bit worried about what else is considered now to be better handled by a WMF-appointed Director of Something deciding it alone, without even trying to understand how users will be affected by the decision, much less giving them a voice.

Ladsgroup (talkcontribs)
GLavagetto (WMF) (talkcontribs)

TechComm is being phased out, with the introduction of the Architecture team. I'm not sure there will be an RFC process going forward, at least not in the format we're used to.

Tgr (talkcontribs)

Which I'll note is the polar opposite of what has been accepted in the movement strategy (See Coordinate Across Stakeholders: "Create a Technology Council to establish processes for introducing new functionalities onto Wikimedia platforms and tools. The aim is to improve communication between staff developers and other technical contributors to better network, coordinate innovation, provide and obtain support, and foster input on decisions and resource allocations that impact communities."; and the older and less mature but more detailed Evaluate and Decentralize Technology Components: "Set-up an iterative strategic consultation in which long-term goals and visions can be determined in a participatory manner. This process should lead to a maintained public roadmap with project dependencies outlined. From the roadmap affiliates and volunteers can make proposals to build components of the roadmap. These proposals will be vetted for their technical merit, cohesiveness with the technology architecture through the “Technology Council”.") But presumably there will be a better place to discuss that when that decision gets announced.

MGChecker (talkcontribs)

It should be clear that an architecture process not involving volunteer developers and open discussions can not work in this community. Being open to input from anyone makes reaching the optimal solution possible.

TechCom has worked out very well so far, and I see no reason to replace it. Why do we have to reiterate such situations again and again, with the WMF obviously not learning anything along the way? It can not be so hard to be so hard to understand which kind of decision-making usually leads to a huge public outcry and to just not do it this way. Unless, of course, it is happening with intent.

KChapman (WMF) (talkcontribs)

@Tgr thank you for assuming good intent. As you know I was involved in the movement strategy and my intention is not to consolidate decision making into the Architecture Team. I do seek to improve our decision making processes by making sure we clarify who the stakeholders are up front and what the problem is we seek to solve prior to discussing solutions. While a move to GitLab is a big decision it is not a system architecture decision in my view. I also don't think it falls under the TechCom charter.


@MGChecker There is no intention to not involve volunteers, nor only have closed discussions.

Tgr (talkcontribs)

@KChapman (WMF) I apologize, that comment was unfair, given that you are the main author of one of the aforementioned recommendations. I still think it was unfortunate to make that kind of decision without any kind of public feedback. From within the organization it might look like just another restructuring, but for the technical community, TechCom has been its core governance structure, and despite technically being selected by the WMF, in practice it has been a fairly meritocratic one, with an open application process and whatnot. Replacing it with something regulated by opaque HR decisions is going to raise eyebrows; quite possibly just due to lack of information, and if we understood the planned role of the Architecture team, we'd be perfectly happy (there is certainly a need for better resourced and better connected architectural planning! We even had a draft recommendation about it), but there's an issue here with communication, at least.

Anyway, looking forward to hearing more about that plan and maybe discussing it at some other place and time.

Skizzerz (talkcontribs)

@KChapman (WMF): I would personally consider the people using the software the most (which includes the volunteers) as a very important group of stakeholders. Being blindsided by what appears to be a decision that has already been made without any prior consultation leaves a very sour taste. The sad part is that, if the WMF did bother to surface this before making a decision, I'm pretty sure there would be overwhelming community support in moving away from Gerrit and into GitLab.

The initial announcement however made clear that a decision was already made behind closed-doors, with no statement that the community could modify the decision, only that we'd be consulted for "feedback and recommendations" that is likely to be ignored if it doesn't already fit the "we're moving to GitLab" decision. While it is true that this is explicitly out of scope of the TechCom charter, surfacing the idea here on MediaWiki.org for community involvement before making a decision that completely upends the workflows of every volunteer developer still would have been a smart move.

However, it's not too late to start bringing the planning into the community. I strongly suggest that the WMF creates an informal RfC here on MediaWiki.org ("informal" in this case meaning "not under TechCom's purview"). Even if the WMF views decisions made as a result of the RfC as advisory instead of binding (although I'd hope they'd be binding), a move to a completely different code review platform brings in a lot of complications, and the earlier you can get community feedback on what sorts of workflows and use cases need to be supported, the better everyone can plan for a migration.

As someone else mentioned in a previous comment, having a backout plan in the event GitLab's code review features prove to be untenable should also be part of the planning (meaning, we'd also want to investigate ways to integrate Gerrit with GitLab CI).

KChapman (WMF) (talkcontribs)

@Skizzerz I'm not sure if "you" in this case means me personally, I wanted to be sure there wasn't an expectation of action on my part. I wanted to clarify that the GitLab discussion is outside of my scope. If "you" means the WMF then fair enough.

Skizzerz (talkcontribs)

Sorry, I did mean "you" to mean the WMF. I thought I caught all instances of that when copyediting before posting it originally, but I guess I missed some. I've edited the comment to reflect the intent :)

My call to action is for the WMF as an organization to begin an informal RFC so that we can start the process (better late than never). Specifically who within the WMF champions that is not my call to make. If there is something you personally can do, it would be encouraging the appropriate people to make that happen.

Ladsgroup (talkcontribs)

The fact that the TechCom is being phased out in favor of Architecture team is quite concerning to me and I have no venue to give the feedback (and I assume it's already decided behind closed doors since this is the first time I hear about it...). For example, I read Wikimedia Architecture Team#Decision making to understand how gitlab is decided and this is the text:

Conway’s Law is truth: The way we structure communication as an organization inherently designs our solutions and the system as a whole.
To be effective, we are strongly focused on improving the way we "architect" solutions by improving the structure of solutioning together. Beginning with structuring recommendations that are more integrative and tolerant of ambiguity, while still actionable and quickly iterative.
We are actively working with engineering and product to understand how best to support organizational decision making without inadvertently rebuilding the same structures that created our legacy system. We are also creating a “system view” framework in which people can position decisions and connect them to other decisions in a more meaningful way.

This is too general and vague to be of any use. You can put this as "decision making process" of every other team at WMF and you would see it applies there too. Compare it with Requests for comment that is extremely detailed and well defined and went through several iterations already (the last one was quite recent). It seems we are throwing lots of years of work with this.

Legoktm (talkcontribs)

It's probably worth starting another discussion (where?) about the future of TechCom. In any case, I see no reason a community-empowered TechCom (rather than given authority from the WMF CTO) cannot coexist with a WMF Architecture Team.

Martin Urbanec (talkcontribs)

Well, maybe it's being phased out, but so far, it's a MediaWiki.org policy. I think we should follow policies which are currently available at MediaWiki.org, because that's what people uninvolved in changes will expect to be followed.

Tgr (talkcontribs)

Per Wikimedia Technical Committee/Charter#Areas within scope (emphasis mine), "The scope of the committee includes all the official software that serves Wikimedia users. That includes MediaWiki and extensions, services, and other software running on the production cluster ... The scope also does not include developer tools ... or other non-production technologies."

So Gerrit (and in general developer productivity infrastructure) changes are clearly outside TechCom scope.

Multichill (talkcontribs)

Hi Grant, welcome to Wikimedia. I see this is your first time using this account. Who or what made you think that making such a huge decision on your own without community consultation was a good plan? You might have consulted other people, but you're the top of the corporate chain, so in the end, it's your decision.

It shows severe lack of awareness of how things work around here. Are you even aware of the big community uproar around the renaming? You seem to be acting like you are the CTO of some kind of corporate entity. Wikimedia isn't. Big changes are usually discussed with community members to reach consensus. Just announcing a change like this is a slap in the face for members of the community.

Applying Hanlon's razor here: I'm assume you weren't aware of this. So please reconsider and act on it now.

Reedy (talkcontribs)
GIngersoll (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Yes, that is correct, @Reedy

Nikerabbit (talkcontribs)
Skizzerz (talkcontribs)

This should certainly be an RFC and go through the formal process the moment it touches the wider MediaWiki development community. Swapping just CI out would be an infrastructure change that doesn't modify the workflows that the vast majority of contributors are using (as the vast majority of contributors are just publishing and reviewing patches, and the CI component is largely just a "black box"). Changing out the Code Review platform entirely however must go to the wider community for feedback before any changes are implemented. Doing otherwise is equivalent to the WMF saying "fuck you" to the community of developers and contributors by depriving them of any meaningful voice and will likely drive away contributors even if GitLab ends up being a better platform for that reason alone.

AntiCompositeNumber (talkcontribs)

Another voice urging reconsideration of the decision not to RFC this. Code review tools exist to serve the needs of contributors and reviewers, be them WMF staff, affiliates, or volunteers. The RFC process exists to ensure drastic decisions with wide-ranging implications like this one are actually in the best interests of everyone involved. Making a decision like this without any outside review is quite daft and downright dangerous.

Bawolff (talkcontribs)

Even as someone who really really hates gerrit, I'm rather disappointed i'm hearing about such a wide reaching change second hand, after the decision has already been made.

Multichill (talkcontribs)

I would like to echo what Bawolff and others are saying. Quite disappointed about the process. This process seems very similar to what is currently happening at meta:Community open letter on renaming.

TheDJ (talkcontribs)

What in the world ? I mean I’m first in line to switch to Gitlab, I even chose it over phabricator back when we picked that, but this is very unexpected... I’d like to hear more

MZMcBride (talkcontribs)

Wikimedia Foundation Inc. is bad. I'm not sure how many more examples we need of this, but we can certainly add this one to the very large pile.

Ladsgroup (talkcontribs)

Seconding what has been said here. As the person who hated gerrit so much that wrote a bot to mirror PRs in Gtihub to gerrit six years ago for pywikibot, I'd really appreciate following the proper formal process for this. We have an ARB for a reason.

Martin Urbanec (talkcontribs)

Plus one. If anything needs a RfC, it's definitely changing one of core developer tools. We are a community, not an authoritarian group with an all-mighty dictator.

MarcoAurelio (talkcontribs)

I'd like to echo the feelings of @Legoktm and many others above regarding this unconsulted migration. I feel very dissapointed. MediaWiki and its extensions are developed by many volunteers that deserve being asked before taking such drastic decisions. Please reconsider and open a RfC.

Majavah (talkcontribs)

I am echoing what everyone else has already said. The code review tool is one of the most important tools used in an environment like this. Please do not completely change it without asking everyone what they think about the change.

Naypta (talkcontribs)

I'm personally very strongly in favour of a switch to GitLab; as a new contributor, Gerrit is alienating and confusing, and that's not even mentioning the trouble inherent with git-review and its "pretend to be part of Git but actually don't really be" hacks. That being said, I agree that it's important that this is a community decision - the MediaWiki codebase is not owned by any one single person or team.

GIngersoll (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hi All,

Responding to several questions and asks around this instead of replying directly to each.

It is certainly not our intent for this to be a decision made without consultation. I very much expect the teams involved here to consult with the community on how this gets implemented in terms of critical technical issues and developer workflows, as is already happening on other threads on this talk page. As for the choice of the tool itself, I believe the Engineering Productivity team did their homework in terms of recognizing a trend in our developer satisfaction survey that pointed at an underlying issue with code review that needs addressing and worked through a series of options to arrive at the recommendation they made to me for us to move forward on Gitlab.

As for the broader decision itself, I was trying to balance out moving forward on a decision that is never going to please everyone with a need to work towards solving very real concerns in both our continuous integration and code review tools that Greg and team have outlined on this page, knowing full well that us developers get very used to their version control and code review workflows. My overall sense is this is not an area we as a community and staff should be maintaining one-off solutions in, as it reduces all developer's effectiveness and makes our community less welcoming, even if it is very much a set of tools people are used to. In other words, my hope was that by picking a tool that is well accepted in the broader open source community, is in line with our values as an open source project, and has standard developer workflows that *most* developers are familiar with, we'd be able to please most people, even if there is some relatively short term pain (in the grand arc of what we are all trying to do) for folks on their particular toolchains.

As @Tgr cited above, my impression was that we didn't need to do an RFC for this kind of decision, even if sometimes in the past it has been done (or not, as seems to be the case too).

MaxSem (talkcontribs)

Grant, I'm sorry, I fully realise that what I'm writing is inflammatory, but there's really no other way to get this point across. Is WMF never going to learn from its mistakes of pushing its decisions down users' throats?

GIngersoll (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hey @MaxSem,

No worries, I get it. I've been in open source as a volunteer myself for a long time. I'm not trying to shove this down anyone's throat. This is an important part of people's workflows, as a dev, I get that. I'm reviewing with the team how to incorporate the feedback here. I thought the main consultation part, to take place over the next year, would be around how to port the workflows and make sure people's needs are met, but clearly we need to step back one layer on that.

TheDJ (talkcontribs)

I'm extremely worried by this trend of WMF management not to consult their customers anymore. I'm seeing it all over the place recently. This isn't Facebook or Google. Get out of the SF bubble.

I'm sorry if this comes across as unsensitive, but as a long term volunteer contributor and arguable one of the people who tends to stick up for WMF in our communities, when there are actual problems that WMF needs to deal with, you are making it VERY hard on me/us to defend WMF when it creates transparency and equity problems like this where they simply DO NOT need to exist.

And I'm in FAVOR of gitlab and I feel that way.

GIngersoll (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hey @TheDJ,

Apologies, it is my intent to consult the community. I thought that would take place as it relates to the porting of code review workflows and wasn't necessarily needed on the choice of the tool itself, but clearly we need to step back one layer based on this feedback.


FWIW, I don't live in SF and I'm thankful every day this isn't either of those two companies you mentioned. :-)

Legoktm (talkcontribs)

Sorry, I don't think you answered the initial questions I had.

  • Is this a firm decision that's already been made?
  • Why was there no public announcement or discussion that evaluating and considering a switch of code review platforms was even on the table?

I have plenty of more questions, but right now I'm having difficulty even fathoming why the mere existence of this process had to be kept secret, it's just not what we do.

The Wikimedia technical spaces are made up of a different number of communities, sure it's dominated by MediaWiki, but there's Toolforge users, Pywikibot developers and so on. Then there's all the projects that have gone to off-site (usually proprietary) hosting sites, like the Commons app, OpenZIM, various tool developers, UTRS, and so forth. GitLab should have been an opportunity to reach out to those communities, figure out what they're missing and see how to bring them back onto our shared, free code hosting and review platform for a stronger and more unified Wikimedia technical community.

Instead, it's just being fractured even further.

GIngersoll (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hey @Legoktm,

I'm reviewing based on the feedback here. I don't believe there was some intent to keep this secret so much as we thought the main consultation would be around porting of workflows, but I get it can feel that way. I do agree there is a lot of splintering (which is both a strength and a weakness of open source) and I would like for us to be able to reach out to those communities with tooling that addresses the reasons they felt compelled to leave.

Legoktm (talkcontribs)

I'm not really interested in peoples' intents because then that leads down the path of the blame game, which I don't want to play. I'm more interested in identifying and fixing the process problem, which is what will actually prevent this from happening again.

As I see it, there should have been a notification/announcement/etc. that the scope of the CI refactoring project was expanding to include code review. That would have triggered a broader notification that moving to a new code review platform was on the table and solicited wider input, and so forth.

Tgr (talkcontribs)

Hi Grant, thank you for engaging with the concerns here!

About the naming, RfC can (somwhat unhelpfully) mean either the TechCom process or feedback gathering and discussion in general. Up until about 2015, we had an unstructured RfC process for large-scale decisionmaking, which was used for both architectural and non-architectural decisionmaking, including things such as switching from Bugzilla to Phabricator and switching from Gerrit to Phabricator (eventually rejected, after the first few experiments turned out not so impressive while Gerrit improved). (I don't think there was any kind of explicit process for switching from SVN / Extension:CodeReview to Git / Gerrit, the third past change comparable to the one we are discussing now, but it was preceded by massive amounts of mailing list discussion.) After ArchCom / TechCom was established, it took over managing RfCs related to system architecture, which in practice is almost all of them; we had a separate Phabricator board for TechCom RfCs and generic RfCs (the latter was more recently renamed to Proposals to reduce confusion).

So I don't think most people talking here about an RfC mean there should have been a TechCom RfC, but that there should have been a participative decisionmaking process (the Foundation has recently started calling these consultations, in part to avoid the different and very specific connotations the term "RfC" has on content wikis). Both because we have an intricate and diverse tech ecosystem with many different niches with different requirements, workflow needs and contributor backgrounds, and the information needed to understanding that environment is distributed in many heads, and we need to bring it together to make the right decision; and because that's what aligns with the culture and values of our movement, and open source in general. The Foundation's guiding principles say that the WMF should share decision-making power with the community; the movement strategy principles likewise ask for participatory decision-making. More generally, and at the risk of being mistaken for a Marxist :), open source is one of the very few special environments where workers can truly own their means of production, and excluding them from that ownership will alienate them from their work. Fundamental changes to your work environment happening over your head are disempowering and disaffecting, even if they are otherwise reasonable changes. (It doesn't help that this is happening in the context of the Foundation having announced other, non-technical fundamental changes, which are far more controversial. So tensions were high anyway.)

I find the current course all the more unfortunate because I don't think there's all that much difference between a consultation and a precommitted decision in terms of what specific actions will be taken. A consultation would include gathering feedback on how people used Gerrit (or whatever else they were using), pain points and high points, things they would like to see improved and things they would like to be preserved. It would gather feedback from people with experience with GitLab. It would result in creating some kind of feature comparison matrix, with a summary of what we would gain and how we'd minimize losses. It would set up a trial GitLab instance and migrate some projects that volunteer for it, to verify that our understanding matches reality. These are all things that will mostly have to be done anyway! So IMO the best course of action would be to un-commit to a specific outcome, set up a working group (ideally with some volunteer participation) to do the work of surveying, requirements gathering, feature comparison and testing, with various feedback opportunities along the way; and have them make a go/no-go decision at the end of that process. Again, I think most of those steps would be necessary in some form anyway, so we'd get a more aligned and empowering process almost for free.

Tgr (talkcontribs)

Also, I would like to caution against interpreting things in the narrative of old vs. new users. (More as a precaution, not because of anything specific you have said.) On content wikis it is an unfortunately common pattern that established users prioritize their own productivity above the ease of use of the software by newly joined editors, and the core community gets into fights with the WMF which considers community growth more important in the long term than power-user efficiency.

That kind of conflict is almost nonexistent in the technical community. Most people here care a lot about engaging new developers; all the feedback we got about the related movement strategy recommendation was positive; pretty much everyone commenting on this page has spent many volunteer hours supporting new developers in one capacity or another. To the extent people are skeptical about replacing Gerrit with GitLab (which might well be a small extent, if we put process concerns aside), it's because they are doubtful about it being a significant improvement to the openness and inclusiveness of our community, not because they don't care about that aspect.

More specifically: I think there is a widespread consensus that the main problem with our onboarding and retention of new developers is code review. As in, not code review tooling, but someone actually spending time on reviewing their code. Patches go unanswered for months or years (or, often, forever) because of insufficient capacity for code review; that capacity is by far our worst bottleneck for developer engagement. A tooling change that reduces that capacity will be a net negative; it doesn't matter whether it will be easier for newcomers to contribute patches or not, if there's no one to merge it. Becoming serious about code review would be a painful decision for the Foundation, because all that review time will have to come from somewhere, and thus result in less time for the Foundation's own programmatic goals; but in my opinion, it is a necessary one. I'm somewhat skeptical about attempts to make our community more welcoming which don't try to address this fundamental problem.

(As a corollary to that, I'd really like to see GitLab evaluated specifically for its ability to support code review of volunteer patches. Gerrit has many weaknesses, but one thing it is pretty good at is searching and dashboarding across many projects, useful for keeping track of volunteers patches needing code review or guidance in areas of code with unclear ownership, which is most of our code. Github, with its sweet spot of small unrelated projects with a small group of maintainers, used to be almost unusable in that regard, although I haven't used it recently so maybe they are better now.)

KHarlan (WMF) (talkcontribs)

In the most recent developer satisfaction survey 77% marked code review workflows as a 5/5 (and another 18.7% gave it a 4/5) for how important it is to their work. In terms of the "glue" that holds the developer community together, code review (along with phabricator, mailing lists, IRC, and in person or virtual hackathons) is one of the main places where we talk to each other, critique ideas, improve things, etc. It's a key social space as much as a technical one, is what I'm trying to say.

So, while understanding that good intent is behind this move (the desire to improve weaknesses in the current code review workflows, and to do so quickly), I think it is understandable that folks are upset that something so ingrained in day-to-day workflows is being replaced without asking for consent or feedback.

With regards to whether an RFC is required for this or not, I guess I would say that just because something can be done in a certain way doesn't mean it should be. Even without a formal RFC, something like "hey, after studying this and for X, Y, Z reasons, we are proposing GitLab, we'd like to hear if the are any blocking concerns, these are open questions we would like your feedback on. Unless there are blocking concerns we will start the migration work in N weeks" would have been IMO much better received. I assume this project will take months if not years; would a small consultation period really have hurt? It feels like this move could have been a nice "win" for our developer community but instead we are expending time & energy talking about process failures, and making people feel as though the things that they themselves have ranked as being of highest importance to them, are not worth consulting with them about.

Anyway, sorry if the above sounds too negative; I really appreciate the hard work that everyone has put into our code review and CI infrastructure more generally. I hope the outcome from this discussion is that we find a way that folks can feel heard, engaged and invested in the success of the proposed changes to our code review system.

Naypta (talkcontribs)

I echo this. It's important for us all to remember that real people have spent a significant amount of time working on this, trying to find a good solution, and they shouldn't feel like their efforts have been in vain, or that people are trying to say that what they did isn't worthwhile. It's simply a question of trying to make decisions together, rather than in silos.

This post was hidden by Naypta (history)
GIngersoll (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hi All,

I appreciate the feedback and the many thoughtful comments. As many have pointed out, this is a long process and we don't need to rush the Code Review side of this, even if I know the teams involved are anxious to have clarity in what their upcoming work looks like. I thought we were doing a consultation as part of working through what the migrations of workflows would look like and how it will affect all involved, but after reviewing the comments here, it feels like we should step back and be sure to consult one level up on the choice itself.

Ideally, I'd like to give the team the go ahead to use Gitlab for CI, as that is a behind the scenes implementation detail and our current solution is not viable (Python 2.x EOL, Zuul upgrade needs.) At the same time, though, I worry that if we do that a Code Review consultation will feel like it is then biased towards Gitlab or already the choice. I'm asking @Greg (WMF) to take the lead on setting up a working group to address the concerns here and they will commit to gathering the feedback on code review and reporting out. We will pause on the code review decision for now.

Skizzerz (talkcontribs)

I agree that the CI part can move forwards as that is a backend change and won't result in any changes to existing developer workflows for the majority of developers.

One note I'll bring up about the CI migration: can we look into making a "default" profile that runs on all repositories, or at least all repositories that match a particular naming pattern (such as extension-*)? Right now if we onboard a new extension, we need to also remember to manually make a patch against Zuul's config to enable CI for the new extension repository. It would be nice if new extension repositories were automatically opted into CI, and only those that need special configurations or to opt out would need to submit config changes.

Legoktm (talkcontribs)

I think you're somewhat underestimating the impact of switching CI platforms would have on developers. If you look at the requirements, a big one is self-serve CI, which does significantly impact how people work with CI.

(As for your feature request...I remember filing something similar but can't find it offhand. But addressing that is hopefully going to be done in the new CI system.)

Legoktm (talkcontribs)

No, I don't think that's appropriate yet. My understanding is that GitLab CI was chosen on the merits that it provides a better experience when integrated along with GitLab. On just CI platforms alone, Argo was chosen.

Switching to GitLab CI now, presupposes that we're switching code review to GitLab, otherwise we're picking the inferior solution.

If maintaining Zuul until the code review+CI consultation is completed is so untenable that it can't wait, then code review platform switching shouldn't be part of that process and should be evaluated independently (as it originally was).

Nemo bis (talkcontribs)

Intuitively, Argo should also be much more straightforward to implement. GitLab is much larger and contains all sorts of things; big projects which have tried migrating to it seriously have reported all sorts of unexpected friction (things like it was surprisingly hard to replace the GitLab.com logo everywhere, reliance on Google ReCaptcha etc.).

GIngersoll (WMF) (talkcontribs)

I'll let the Eng Prod folks who evaluated weigh in, but I don't think Gitlab is an inferior solution even on CI. My review of the analysis put those two (Argo and Gitlab) neck and neck. Gitlab for CI I don't think needs to presuppose Gitlab for Code Review, even if it is an integrated solution.

KHarlan (WMF) (talkcontribs)

@GIngersoll (WMF) and @Greg (WMF) thank you for responding to the concerns here and broadening the scope of the consultation with the developer community, I really appreciate it.

Greg (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Thanks Grant. I look forward to having this discussion publicly.

I'll reach out to a few additional people/representatives from the volunteer/non-Foundation community to fill out the current Working Group and will treat that group as "Consulted" in the RACI sense. For the nebulous "newbie" group of users (aka: those who have not yet engaged with Wikimedia projects) I'll be using the expertise of our Technical Engagement team. I will provide updates to the public as we work (at some sub-page of this GitLab page, to be created), so in essence "everyone" is in the Informed category.

As we go through this discussion I expect the conversation to continue here on more focused workflow questions (best practices etc) in a two-way manner with the working group.

Thank you to everyone for your feedback thus far.

Legoktm (talkcontribs)

Thanks Greg. I'd suggest having at least one person from: the Pywikibot community, given that it was the last straggler in the SVN -> Git migration and have had real trouble having our needs met by the current CI system; and the Toolforge community, which has mostly not been successful in using Gerrit, instead hosting most code on Diffusion or external sites like GitHub and Bitbucket.

(I'm a member of both communities, so that's what I'm most familiar with but also my bias.)

Tgr (talkcontribs)

This might be also a good opportunity to involve communities who have not used our CR/CI systems so far and see if a switch would make them more excited about it. Semantic MediaWiki would be the big one.

Reedy (talkcontribs)