Talk:Flow

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The Collaboration team has enabled Flow on this talk page.

Previous feedback is on Talk:Flow Portal/Archive2 (using old Liquid Threads), and on our labs server.

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Priorities for the Collaboration (Flow) team

2
Quiddity (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hi everyone, here's a copy of the message from Dannyh:

For a while now, the Collaboration team has been working on Flow, the structured discussion system. I want to let you know about some changes in that long-term plan.

While initial announcements about Flow said that it would be a universal replacement for talk pages, the features that were ultimately built into Flow were specifically forum-style group discussion tools. But article and project talk pages are used for a number of important and complex processes that those tools aren't able to handle, making Flow unsuitable for deployment on those kinds of pages.

To better address the needs of our core contributors, we're now focusing our strategy on the curation, collaboration, and admin processes that take place on a variety of pages. Many of these processes use complex workarounds -- templates, categories, transclusions, and lots of instructions -- that turn blank wikitext talk pages into structured workflows. There are gadgets and user scripts on the larger wikis to help with some of these workflows, but these tools aren't standardized or universally available.

As these workflows grow in complexity, they become more difficult for the next generation of editors to learn and use. This has increased the workload on the people who maintain those systems today. Complex workflows are also difficult to adapt to other languages, because a wiki with thousands of articles may not need the kind of complexity that comes with managing a wiki with millions of articles. We've talked about this kind of structured workflow support at Wikimania, in user research sessions, and on wikis. It's an important area that needs a lot of discussion, exploration, and work.

Starting in October, Flow will not be in active development, as we shift the team's focus to these other priorities. We'll be helping core contributors reduce the stress of an ever-growing workload, and helping the next generation of contributors participate in those processes. Further development on these projects will be driven by the needs expressed by wiki communities.

Flow will be maintained and supported, and communities that are excited about Flow discussions will be able to use it. There are places where the discussion features are working well, with communities that are enthusiastic about them: on user talk pages, help pages, and forum/village pump-style discussion spaces. By the end of September, we'll have an opt-in Beta feature available to communities that want it, allowing users to enable Flow on their own user talk pages.

I'm sure people will want to know more about these projects, and we're looking forward to those conversations. We'll be reaching out for lots of input and feedback over the coming months.

Quiddity (WMF) (talkcontribs)

T​o clarify: Starting in October, Flow will be maintained; it's not being abandoned. Further work on the discussion system will need to be driven by communities voicing their desire for further work on it.

As a pattern that we're all familiar with, it's more likely that people will comment when they have negative or critical feedback, particularly at a centralized forum. While it's helpful to point out things that are not user-friendly or frustrating to use, it's also helpful for the team to know what is going well - so we can do more of it. I’d like to encourage people to speak up (here or onwiki) when there's positive feedback as well – this goes for article-editors as much as software-developers. There are people on many wikis who have been happily using Flow, but they haven't gone out of their way to broadcast that information off of their usual home wiki. What do you like about this software? Is it headed in the right direction, even if it doesn’t seem complete? Are there things about it that the Collaboration team could continue to focus on?

See also, the threads on wikitech-l and on wikimedia-l, for additional discussion.

Reply to "Priorities for the Collaboration (Flow) team"

In another languages section

1
Summary by Jay8g
ConnieGB (talkcontribs)

The link in the page to Flow in english wikipedia page is wrong :/ . The link is "Wikipedia:Flow" and not "Natural selection".

Base (talkcontribs)

What a human readable thing. Can't they contain at least talk page's name? --~~~~

Base (talkcontribs)

Oh and it seems I cant even make a link in the heading. How is it expected to be used? --~~~~

He7d3r (talkcontribs)

phab:T59153]]

Reply to "[[Topic:Sh1c1yo99eqr7h78]]"
Ruud Koot (talkcontribs)

I just had my talk page converted to Flow on Wikidata and I notice Flow is often very slow to load (also happens on this page). A dimmed preview will appear quickly, but it can then take over 14 seconds before you can actually interact with the page. All the time Firefox is indicating it is waiting for some stuff to be loaded from www.wikidata.org/upload.wikimedia.org. Occasionally the whole page will load in about a second, so it seems this is not inherent slowness, but that there are some network issues going on?

This also sometimes happens when trying to edit a previous comment (takes a long time before the slanted gray bars disappear) and often when using the "View history" tab of Flow-enabled pages. I've not seen this happen on any non-Flow related pages on any Wikimedia sites.

Ruud Koot (talkcontribs)

Actually, if I use Special:Random a few times then occasionally the "Reading from www.mediawiki.org" or "Reading from upload.wikimedia.org" message will stay visible for several seconds after the page seems to have been loaded. Although not as often as Flow seems to experience slow loading times (perhaps Flow needs to load more resources, causing this to be triggered more often?)

So the problem seems to be a combination of pages not always being served quickly enough and Flow not enabling interactions before the page has been fully loaded.

Reply to "Intermittently slow to load"
Summary by Quiddity (WMF)

Roadmap updated

Rogol Domedonfors (talkcontribs)

More than halfway through the next quarter, and yet the roadmap currently ends in July. I assumeitheres more to come?

Quiddity (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Q1 and the first draft of Q2, have been added. Thanks.

Summary by Subfader

position top seems broken

Subfader (talkcontribs)

On my wiki the JS runs after the window is done. This leads to annoying visible "repainting" changes like the time ago conversion.

How can I add position top to the RL modules in Flow?

Quiddity (WMF) (talkcontribs)

I asked the devs, and they said something about "x kind of killed the position=top concept" and then went off on a tangent related to timestamps (client vs serverside), but said that they do aim to fix the FOUC issue here. HTH. (I can ask for details, if needed)

Subfader (talkcontribs)

Hmh, makes me wonder why it is not the case here on mw.org but on my MW 1.25.2

If there's no way I can fix it atm, then there's no need to ask for details. Thanks!

Edit: I do see the "time ago" conversion on Project:Support desk tho.

Summary by ConnieGB

Resuelto.

ConnieGB (talkcontribs)

Can flow allow archiving in the future?

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hello

Flow has an automated archiving system: if you scroll down on this page, older discussions will appear.

A system of search and filters is coming.

ConnieGB (talkcontribs)

Oh, ok. Thanks. :)

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

You're welcome :)

Subfader (talkcontribs)

I want to request a preview button. It should be available to all (incl. editor "none").

121.219.167.97 (talkcontribs)

Press the button in the bottom-right corner of the textbox to preview.

Subfader (talkcontribs)

I never clicked that. Looks like a right floating code editor button. I'm talking about a plain simple preview button ;)

I hacked a preview into Extension:ArticleComments by using the API to parse the text above the textarea. It's rock solid.

Subfader (talkcontribs)

I guess this GoodUI hint applies here: Try Icon Labels instead of opening for interpretation. https://www.goodui.org/#47

Quiddity (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Making the switcheditor button more intuitive (it is a toggle to switch between wikitext-mode, and VE-edit-mode (essentially a preview, and hence used as such)) is now tracked at phab:T101316.

A feature-request to make a separate more classic-style 'preview' (that cannot be typed in, and is not VE) is tracked at phab:T69258.

Reply to "Request for preview feature"
Base (talkcontribs)

when trying to add a link I type "[[" and have link target already copied and ready to be pasted. Instead that damn thing deletes the two brackets (took me some effort to paste them here) and opens some weird window I want not. How do I fight it? --~~~~

Base (talkcontribs)

Oh I found the button in the corner. How do I make the markup editing mode the default one? --Base (talk) 02:28, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Subfader (talkcontribs)

I fell in the same pot for weeks until somebody told me here.

It's like "Fuck off newbie pop-up, I know what I do. Grr, see! Now you fucked everything up. Let me redo typing [ [...]] and removing the blank. Ha!! See ya next time stupid pop-up!"

This comment was hidden by Subfader (history)
Quiddity (WMF) (talkcontribs)

There is a "sticky preference", so the last edit-mode that we edit the content within, will be saved as our preference. I.e. If I write this post in wikitext mode, and then "preview" with the VE mode, and don't make any changes, and click "save", then my sticky preference will remain as the wikitext mode. See linked gerrit patches in phab:T94852 for the sticky preference, and phab:T88182 for further background details. (And my apologies for the delay in replying)

Base (talkcontribs)
Oh wow that's unexpected. If it is not cookies based but server side it sounds nice. Though perhaps some traditional preference back-up would not harm for users who don't expect a smart thing like me. No problems about the late reply, thank you --Base (talk) 03:15, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
Reply to "unwanted menu"

Feature request: Reply to solved topics

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Summary by Subfader

Seems like I have to reopen it first.

Subfader (talkcontribs)

On Topic:Snfbyj1aiq26ypcz a developer closed my topic as resolved and I'm not able to reply. Kind of frustrating as if I'm banned for being an abuser.

Subfader (talkcontribs)

Seems like I have to reopen it first.

This comment was hidden by He7d3r (history)