Hi Trizek,
I just saw your announcement on yuewiki. I’m wondering where I should go if I want to fix the date formatting, or is this something that needs to be fixed at the source code level? Thanks!
User talk:Trizek (WMF)
Never mind, I found it; I wish I knew this was going out before it went out, but I’d still like to know if there’s a way to fix $defaultformat at the source
Hello Al12si.
We can change $defaultformat to match yue language. Just let me know what the format should be.
We use PHP formatting for #time. For instance, {{#time:H:i e|2023-03-01T14:00}} displays 14:00 UTC. Numerous options are provided to format the time the way you need it.
And good news: fixing it no means that is will be fixed once for good for future announcements.
Hi Trizek,
In yue a short date (month and day) looks like this:
n月j號
A long date (year, month and day) looks like this:
Y年n月j號
(yue is kind of an exception; in most other CJK languages that use kanji (ja, lzh and zh) these would read n月j日 and Y年n月j日 instead. 號 literally means “number”, as in the day number within the month; 日, used in ja, lzh and zh, literally means “day”.)
(ko is in theory the same as ja/zh but they spell it in Hangul instead of using kanji.)
You can verify this by checking recent Tech News editions for yue, ja and zh etc. I know this is also affecting ja (I’ve fixed the ja announcement); I don’t know if this is affecting zh and ko.
If it involves time, it goes after the date. Time zone is a bit tricky though; I don’t think there’s anything that matches how I hear it said, so I guess we can keep time zone as-is.
(The way I’ve heard it said puts time zone first, but we don’t use the English zone names so that’s a no-go; I’ve also heard it said as a numeric offset, but we only say the number of hours, so that’s also a no-go.)
Thank you for the explanations, and the updates.
I checked on this message, and it should display the name of the day, the number of the day, the name of the month, and the year (as in "Wednesday 1 March 2023"). Can you fix it?
Regarding the timezone, car we assume that most yue users live in certain timezones? Some languages adapted the announcement regarding times to highlight places where the language is most spoken (for instance, French highlights Québec, Western Europe, Western Africa and Central Africa).
Fixed.
As to the timezone, yes, most yue users would live in GMT+8, but I’m not sure what best to call it. We could call it 加八時區 (lit. “[the] +8 timezone”, I’ve heard it called this); or we could could pick a region, but that would be a political decision (as in literally political, as in siding with a certain political ideology).
BTW, if we need year and date-of-the-week for that string, the Japanese translation needs to be fixed too. I fixed it (I don’t speak Japanese, but date strings are cognate within all CJK languages); you might or might not want to get someone to double-check my fix.
That string is also broken in Korean (I just checked it), but I’ll not be able to fix Korean. Their dates are also cognate but they spell everything in an alphabet and I won’t know how anything is spelled.
Thank you for the fix. For the timzeone, it could literally use the mention of local time and the UTC time: "22:00 local time (14:00 UTC)". What do you think ?
I'll find a Japanese and a Korean speaker to fix the strings, thank you for spotting them.
Bonjour, Trizek. J'ai par le passé utilisé à plusieurs reprises ce livret (Participer à Wikipédia) comme aide pour expliquer comment contribuer : il couvrait beaucoup de sujets. Par contre, j'ai voulu l'utiliser récemment et j'ai constaté qu'il n'était plus à jour, sur quelques points, comme les colonnes de gauche et de droite ou les liens inter-langues. Une nouvelle version est-elle prévue ?
Bonjour
C'est à Trizek qu'il faudrait poser la question.
Et une mise à jour n'est pas d'actualité.
Hi Trizek!
I wanted to ask you something I've been thinking about for a while. We had several mentors who were blocked and after the block, I saw some mentees ask them questions. We can't see which mentees assigned to them until these questions. Even then it's hard to keep track of them. If some mentors are blocked on a particular wiki, let's say... about a month or so could you create a solution that will automatically transfer the mentees to another mentor or could you create a page to list the blocked mentor's mentees?
Hello Anerka
Thank you for contacting me! We already had some community inputs regarding this idea, which has been documented.
We currently have a solution for people who'd like to voluntary quit mentoring, but we don't have (yet) a real solution about people who are banned, blocked, or who quit and forgot to leave mentorship.
If you have a list of users of which mentees should be reassigned, please let me know. We can do the change manually.
Thanks for the offer :)
We have 3 users in tr.wiki in this situation;
Cedreon, Leaply, and Victor Trevor
Sorry for the late reply. I filled a request to reassign the users.
Hello @Anerka,
I'm not sure if you're monitoring Phabricator. My name is Martin Urbanec, and I'm an engineer who will work on reassigning the mentees to other mentors. To make that possible, I will need a tr translation of https://translatewiki.net/wiki/MediaWiki:Growthexperiments-quit-mentorship-reassign-mentees-log-message/en (at Translatewiki, Phabricator or here, whatever you prefer). Once that's translated, I can start the process on my end.
@Martin Urbanec (WMF), I'm so sorry, I missed this ping.
Then reassignement has been done.
Thanks for letting me know.
Hi again,
I filled a request to reassign the mentees one more user from Turkish Wikipedia.
Hello @Anerka, thanks for the message. This was done.
Hey Trizek! I saw that many years ago you had notified our community about the existence of ORES. I was wondering, does ORES still learn from our edits or from any other source? Is it improving somehow?
Hello Klein Muçi
Good question. I haven't worked for this project since a loooong while! :)
If I remember correctly, the training your community worked on is still the data used by ORES. IF you think it should be improved (r just to be sure I'm not wrong), I encourage you to contact the project owners.
Should I contact them there? The page doesn't look like it gets a lot of traffic. Maybe I can contact them personally on their user pages if you show me who exactly I should contact. I checked the page history but it had a lot of contributors.
Try the project talk page first. ORES is a mature project, with few improvements. Seeing low traffic there doesn't mean that there is nobody watching. ;)
I checked who are the project owners, and the Machine Learning team is more on Talk:Machine Learning now.
Hope this helps!
Thank you! :))
Hey, Trizek! :)
Lately I've been made aware of a situation in our homewiki (SqWiki) which you may already know but I thought I'd let you know anyway.
If you remember, I was very excited with the whole mentorship idea. We activated it as soon as possible but we have a small active community. We only have 3 mentors in total, myself included. The problem is that even though I tried to choose the most active users, the 2 other people still aren't fast enough in their answers. I've seen users on their pages ask 2 questions in a row or more because their first one never got an answer. We've set it so all questions get redirected to the mentors' talkpages but from the POV of most new users they don't fully understand what's happening. They just see a place where to ask a question and go with it. And when they don't get an answer, they ask again in the only place they know and therefore end up asking the same unresponsive user again. This may end up being very frustrating for them.
I was thinking that maybe we should "tweak the system" so that if you have unanswered questions by the help panel for X period of time on your talkpage you get a notification that reminds you to answer them. Or maybe automatically removes you from the list of mentors after giving you a notification about your "demotion deadline". Or maybe a notification telling the users that want to ask a second question after they have 1 unanswered one that maybe they should consider asking somewhere else. Anything really. The whole idea is to make users not get trapped in a single unresponsive page.
Hello Klein Muçi, and thank you for letting us know!
A agree on the fact that it is demotivating for newcomers to post on unresponsive pages.
The idea of the notification would be nice, but our wiki talk pages aren't structured. It makes it difficult to find which messages remain unanswered.
A possibility of improvement would be to have a centralized help desk instead of the mentoring system. This way, the page would be monitored by all users, and the ones who know the answer can participate. te.wikipedia posts these messages directly on the village pump (or equivalent) so that questions are immediately visible!
The mentorship system would return when the community would have grown up.
That's what we had (and we still have the Q&A page made specifically for that reason) but we changed it to using talk pages because unfortunately it wasn't working like that. At least some questions get answered like this. The only problem is that new members may get "trapped forever" with an unresponsive mentor. I think a system should be devised to protect against this kind of situation. Maybe by automatically removing names from the list once a certain criteria is reached. I can, of course, remove them myself now but in general it's not good practice to just count only on one user for a specific thing. I do understand that the lack of structured discussions proves a challenge though. If any changes happen in regard to this in the future, I'd be interested to read them.
Hi!
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Thank you. /Johan (WMF)
18:17, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
Bonjour ! Ici il y ont des questions. Vous y êtes la bienvenue ! :-)
Merci ! :)
Hello!
I activated the homepage some days ago as you know together with the other growth features. I had a question about the homepage tab though. Is it supposed to be there only to give edit suggestions? I was following some of its suggestions thinking they would end after a while but they didn't. I'm not sure if you're supposed to have different features in it other than suggestions or not. Either way is good, I am just curious.
Hello
Suggested edits are the most important element at the homepage. This is how we provide work to newcomers, and, based on their favorite topics and the type of maintenance tasks they like to work on, the number of tasks can virtually be endless.
The Homepage has other modules:
- the impact module that shows the number of views on articles that have been edited by the user
- some help links chosen by the community (set at Special:EditGrowthConfig)
- a way to contact a mentor, if a list of mentors has been created locally.
Yes, those were the modules I was seeing. My idea was that at first you get work suggestions to make you start, from easy to hard, the difficulty auto-progressing after a certain number of edits has been reached. After you "finish" the hard edits and hit, for example, 100 edit "tasks" completed in that difficulty, that module gets removed from the main view, maybe minimized to the side, and in its place you get information automatically about your work in wiki, similar to the impact module. For example, you may have stats for your overall contributions, the maintenance categories you have helped clean up (a very bad example just to send the point), etc.
I mean, the current interface works very well for newcomers, showcasing their impact for motivation, giving them tasks to do and providing easy ways to contact a mentor. But after a user gets past that phase, the whole page becomes more or less obsolete. I remember reading some days ago at Growth/Personalized first day/Newcomer homepage, that it will provide, among other things, a way for it to work as a "structured user page", a "profile", which was what really caught my interest. Only now I see that it is listed on "Future versions". I had missed that part and was expecting it to change according to my experience level after I had "proved it to it" by completing some tasks.
In my opinion the homepage feature is something that has been missing from Wikipedia for a long time, finally giving you the possibility of having "a profile", and it can have benefits past just helping newcomers, being utilized as a profile to auto-showcase the user's info, work and merits. This step can also suppress a bit the multiple fake account creation process by one user (we're not talking about anonymous accounts but accounts with names such as lkasjdfjkasd or vulgar terms) by bringing more integrity to the account itself, far past just "a red link with your name on it" as many user see it.
The experience can also be gamified if we want, making users get experience points for tasks and unlocking new ranks for themselves which come with graphical changes and added privileges. First you start as a newcomer and you have a small symbol that showcases that. This will also be reflected in your homepage content. Then you advance to an intermediate rank which has another small symbol and another homepage content + added privileges. This already is a process that's currently happening in many Wikis where you get autopatrolled privileges after a certain number of good edits. Then you may go to advanced ranks which come with the aforementioned changes + the possibility of requesting adminship, just an example. Or you can have individual stats for each namespace and, after working enough in the category namespace, you unlock "category master" rank and get the possibility of requesting category mover privileges beside having a badge showcase that. The homepage then shows content related to categories to make your work easier with that. This, of course, can be as "secret" as we want it to be. The visual effects can be added or not depending on if they'll be helpful on the overall experience or not (usually, knowing which users are better for one specific thing is helpful) and that's the same with the added privileges part. But I think the homepage feature should be there forever providing specialized content to your liking and experience.
In our initial thinking about the Homepage, we have said that it should remain flexible enough to allow some evolution. We haven't resumed our thinking on it. At the moment, we don't have much users who have performed +100 edits using our features. We observe some people who still use the Homepage to make suggested edits among with other types of tasks not listed there.
The "structured user page" idea was to allow newcomers to introduce themselves to the community. However, we haven't pursued in this direction since the objective was not to have newcomers having nice user pages (it is fun, but not helping Wikipedia), but to have newcomers making good first edits (which helps!). The last time we informally discussed about this structured userpage idea, we were around the idea of automatically displaying achievements on the user page, such as the number of edits made, the number of thanks received, etc. It could be a way to gamify, but we also need to be aware of the fact that some users will play the quantity game instead of the quality game. What is the point to encourage users to reach (let's say) 100 edits if they make poor quality edits?
At the moment, we are not focusing on the Homepage, but on "Add an image". Have you heard about this project? It is a task aiming to help newcomers to make constructive edits, with a bit of gamification. We would be curious to have your opinion about it.
Thanks for the insight. I do think it would better even from an utilitarian point of view if users started out with a "premade" profile/userpage though (instead of the redlink). The "missing userpage" it's not only strange but confusing as well from the point of view of the new users. For them is hard to understand the change between "the account", "the preferences" and the "user page", at least from my experience with them in the edit-a-thons that we've made. (Many users spend literally years without ever knowing about the existence of the preferences tab.) The homepage does provide a framework for that and I'd really hope that in the future those 3 concepts I mentioned above could be "fused" in it.
Achievements (and the whole gamifying experience) were in the "extra part", just building upon the current impact module. I wouldn't call it a "quantity game". If you noticed, I've typed "good edits" above just because of that. Those edits would only count if they were approved by other experienced users. Again, something built upon the current system that we have. Going from "user" to "autopatrolled user" requires exactly that, even technically. And then, for most wikis, a similar thing is required for admin privileges. This would only give the technical tools to better manage the process (which is already done through tools like: https://admin.toolforge.org/tool/sulinfo, etc.) But that was just a brainstorm. My insistence is just on having a more crystallized profile.
Yes, I had read about the image task. It's a useful thing. In edit-a-thons, after I'm done explaining how to write articles with wikicode (which lately has transformed to how to translate articles with CX and VE), the first questions that I get asked are about images and references. Populating articles with images can prove beneficial for the user and the community. My only general suggestion would be that, whatever is the final outcome, it should contain buttons instead of links. Buttons give you the urge to press them which helps in engagement and exploration. Wikipedia's interface suffers a lot from the lack of buttons which is why many users don't even know about the existence of preferences, what I mentioned above.
I agree regarding how complicated it is. I personally skip the existence of the userpage at workshops. :p At French Wikipedia where I'm a mentor since 10 years now (wow, time flies!), I see that most newcomers don't have one and don't need one. They would have one later, if they really start editing, or if the account is a brand name (they think it is the actual article).
Maybe we could have a more centralized place for user profiling, with, as you suggest, preferences, account management and user profile. But is goes too far for the Growth team's goals. Maybe you should suggest it as a community wishlist project?
> Those edits would only count if they were approved by other experienced users.
We have observed that at wikis where FlaggedRevisions are enabled that the edits remain unchecked sometimes for years. It is really a problem at a lot of wikis, where the workforce is too low. :/
Regarding buttons, I think it is a way to urge people too. But I think it forces them to rush on the task instead of understanding it. We have conducted some user testings, with people who aren't editors, and apparently links where fine with them.
Yes, that's true. Especially the part about brands. Apparently that's a globally shared detail. As for buttons/links... Okay then. You have more data than me. :P
Hello! :) Do you have a discord? I would like to invite you to the Russian Wikimedia server, to the chat of the team for work with newcomers :)
Hi, I'm not often on Discord, but we can agree on a moment we I can be there. Please email me with the details. :)
Here is the link to our server, join us and we will meet you there! :) https://discord.com/invite/grupKvn
It's just that sometimes it's very convenient to quickly ask a question, plus you can ask something directly :)
Should I access this chat room while I'm literally never on Discord? :D
If you think I can come at a defined time, I would be happy to participate. Otherwise, I don't think I would be useful if I'm not there.
I hope that you will sometimes come to visit us :) Suddenly you decide to use Discord for communication, and you are already in the right channels xD
I'm bookmarking the link.
But I remain available if you want to setup a more formal time. Maybe your community would be happy to ask the Growth team questions? Or maybe we'd need a time with your community, to discuss about mentoring improvements? :)
Yes, that would be interesting. I need to think about the topic of discussion, and understand which format is more acceptable then :)
"Dear mentors, let us know which tools you need" ? :)
Yes, it's a good question, it remains to figure out how to integrate you, given that not everyone knows English. It's easy to do this within the forum, but there may be problems within the voice chat :) To use the usual chat in Discord, for such a question ... Hmm, "session of quick questions and answers". Perhaps it would be interesting :)
I literally just had a meeting about the "Dear mentors, let us know which tools you need" question. Our designer intern will work on this and is looking for mentors for individual interviews. And she speaks Russian.
I was thinking about inviting you (and I'm still), but maybe it is an opportunity for some of your colleagues who are less comfortable with English to participate to the Growth tools improvements? What do you think?
Oh, I think this is a great idea :) If she speaks Russian, it will make our path easier. And if something is not clear, then I will translate :)
The interview would be done using Google Meet. It is an individual interview. I can give your name to my colleague. Do you know another mentor who would be interested in participating (in English, German or Russian)?
I can ask other mentors, I think I will find a couple of people.
I would probably do, if she knows Russian, a wiki meeting in the discord voice channel :) With all the available mentors.
Well, she looks for individual conversations, to have the opportunity to go deeper than with a whole group. Also, she just arrived and she focuses on a small part of everything we do. As a consequence, she may not be able to reply to every question like I can do.
So, to summarize, the options are:
- Individual interviews about mentor tools, on Google Meet in Russian or in English.
- Global conversation about anything related to Growth, on Discord, in English (with you interpretating if needed?).
> Well, she looks for individual conversations, to have the opportunity to go deeper than with a whole group. Also, she just arrived and she focuses on a small part of everything we do. As a consequence, she may not be able to reply to every question like I can do.
Okay, no problem :) As it will be convenient for her.
> Global conversation about anything related to Growth, on Discord, in English (with you interpretating if needed?).
I am afraid that I will not be able to translate the entire stream of discussion. I can only clarify. We will need to look for a translator :) My options are like this:
- Individual interviews about mentor tools, on Google Meet in Russian or in English.
- Global conversation about anything related to Growth, on Discord, in Russian (without translator).
- Global conversation about anything related to Growth, on Discord, in English (with translator).
- Global conversation about anything related to Growth, on Discord, in English in simple text chat.
Let's focus on the first point, since it is the most time sensitive one. :)
Yes, I agree with you :)
Will she write to me here?:)
More likely by email.
Good morning, the message has just arrived on the coffee page of vec.wiki and it is interesting that again you can ask for the activation of structured discussions in the wiki. I think they are much more useful and easier to use than the typical very complicated discussions for new users. I would like to request its activation on the discussion of the home page and on coffee (which we call Ciàcołe), so as to increase and facilitate the participation of visitors to the Wikipedia in the Venetian language. I don't know if it's possible, but it would be very useful to be able to activate it in the discussions of the user pages! Thank you very much for reading, I apologize for the bother and thank you in advance for the answer!
Hello
Thank you for your message.
There is no more activations of Structured Discussions. Which message did you received about it?
However, I may have two things that may help you concerning discussions and welcoming newcomers. :)
First project: Talk pages project/replying is a new project to add more obvious ways to reply to a message. This is a work in progress, but you can ask the project team to consider adding your wiki to their current deployment plan.
Second project: Growth features are a set of tools that help new users to make their first steps on wiki. They receive suggestions of edits to make and a mentor to contact if they have questions. You can get these features by getting a community agreement about them, and listing requested information on Phabricator (see there to know more about it). I work on this project, and I can help you if you have questions!
Hi, here it is .. here you can find the message that has been sent to us regarding the comments. --> vec:Wikipedia:Ciàcołe#Editing news 2020 #2
I apologize for the delay! A greeting and a big thank you for your availability
Oh, I understand! This is not Structured Discussions. This is Talk pages project/replying.
@Whatamidoing (WMF) is the person you should contact about it. :)
Oh! Thank you very much and I apologize for the inconvenience! Let's say that understanding English is not something I do well! haha. A great greeting.
No problem! I'm really happy to help you! :D