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Structured Discussions/Deprecation

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Structured Discussions (SD - Flow) is a deprecated extension. Users are advised to discontinue its use, and communities are encouraged to move their talk pages that use Structured Discussions to subpages and stop using them. It is used on a few wikis. This extension is not maintained. DiscussionTools (DT) is the default discussion system on wikis now.

The Growth team (SD maintainers) and the Editing team (DT maintainers) have started thinking about how to deprecate Structured Discussions (and possibly LiquidThreads) and replace them with DiscussionTools.

Structured Discussions is a complex piece of software that generates a lot of maintenance issues. Estimating the work required to adapt Structured Discussions to the IP Editing: Privacy Enhancement and Abuse Mitigation project revealed a very significant workload. In view of all these challenges, the decision was taken to inform the communities of the future deprecation of Structured Discussions.

The idea is to encourage communities to switch active Structured Discussions tools to the DiscussionTools talk page format. Then, the Structured Discussions pages would be removed from the wikis, at a yet to-be-defined date.

Project updates

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Structured Discussions' deprecation

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The Wikimedia Foundation is working on changes to how IP editing is handled: IP Editing: Privacy Enhancement and Abuse Mitigation. Temporary accounts for unregistered editors will be a new type of user account. This requires changing how features we use to contribute to wikis works.

This work concerns all features, and it raises some challenges. The case of Structured Discussions (also known as “SD” or “Flow”) is one of them. This extension is used at a few wikis, that were progressively contacted in November and December 2023. Flow is a complex piece of software that was never quite finished, fits poorly into the MediaWiki architecture, and creates a significant number of technical errors.

The usage of Structured Discussions is low. In August 2023, on average DiscussionTools is used about 18,780 times per day, while Structured Discussions is used about 250 times per day, mainly at French Wikipedia.

We considered several options to adapt Structured Discussions, including a full adaptation, or a partial adaptation where Temp accounts can respond but not create new conversations. All of them would take a lot of time and effort for a short-term benefit. Also, the Wikimedia Foundation's long-term plan is to remove Structured Discussions from the wikis, mainly due to the maintenance cost. As a consequence, we prefer to avoid adapting Structured Discussions to Temporary accounts.

We took the opportunity of work around Temporary accounts to question the concerned communities regarding the future of Structured Discussions.

DiscussionTools is the replacement for Structured Discussions. DiscussionTools is the default discussion system at all wikis. It allows anyone to start, reply or subscribe to a conversation. It provides a visual experience for wikitext-based conversations, and it covers the vast majority of features Structured Discussions offers.

The goal with this conversation is to respond to the community's questions regarding the archival of Structured Discussions.

The idea is to proceed in two stages:

  1. discussion pages using SD are archived as subpages. They are replaced by a classic discussion page. In this way, the most active pages will already be ready when we proceed to step 2.
  2. SD are removed from the wiki. Existing pages (including archived ones) will be converted to a format yet to be defined.

We encourage communities to start the first step.

Questions asked to the communities

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Starting at the end of November 2023, communities where Structured Discussions are still in use are progressively informed of the upcoming deprecation. We ask them the following questions:

  1. Are the reasons given for archiving structured discussions clear?
  2. Are the two steps outlined above for archiving and uninstalling structured discussions clear?
  3. If so, what is a reasonable timeframe for archiving pages for deinstallation? At present, deinstallation is not planned on our side (even if the second quarter of 2024 is mentioned), as we are waiting for the end of these conversations, which take place on multiple wikis.
  4. In your opinion, what format should pages currently using SDs be converted to when we proceed with the deinstallation of structured discussions?

Communities discussions report

Structured Discussions and DiscussionTools Comparative review

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Main characteristics

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Status of each tool, and their integration to the wiki's key features.

LiquidThreads Structured Discussions DiscussionTools Convenient Discussions
Type of tool MediaWiki extension Gadget/Userscript based on DiscussionTools
Release status Unmaintained Maintained (Wikimedia Foundation) Maintained (Volunteers)
Activation Pending removal[1] Wiki opt-in, user configurable User opt-in and configurable
Visual editing N Not done Yes Done Yes Done N Not done
Backwards-compatibility with wikitext N Not done N Not done Yes Done Yes Done
Templates support Yes Done Yes Done Incomplete Partially done – Tables, templates and parser tags aren't allowed in replies in visual mode Yes Done
Full history integration with the rest of the wiki Yes Done N Not done Yes Done Yes Done
Mobile web support N Not done Yes Done Yes Done N Not done
Mobile app support N Not done N Not done Yes Done N Not done
Permalink to a given comment Yes Done Yes Done Incomplete Partially done – if the comment is not moved elsewhere.[2]

In progress In progress

Discussion features

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Interaction with talk pages and other comments.

LiquidThreads Structured Discussions DiscussionTools Convenient Discussions
Dedicated workflow for starting a new topic Yes Done Yes Done Yes Done Yes Done
Topic and contents preload Yes Done Yes Done Yes Done Yes Done
Indication of new comments when you read a topic N Not done N Not done Yes Done
Indication of edited comments when you read a topic Yes Done Yes Done N Not done Yes Done
Each topic is a different pages/each conversation has a permalink Yes Done Yes Done In progress In progress[2] In progress In progress[2]
Move topics between pages Yes Done N Not doneplanned but not implemented Incomplete Partially done – via wikitext editing, breaks links.[2]

See discussions on moving with the DiscussionTools UI.

Yes Done
Include discussions on another page and reply to them there N Not done N Not doneplanned, including cross-wiki transclusion , but not implemented Yes Done – via transclusion
Editing comments Yes Done Yes Done Incomplete Partially done – via wikitext editing the whole page or section. See T242562 and T245225 for the editing of individual comments. Yes Done
Thank a comment from within the talk page Incomplete Partially done – via Page history Yes Done Incomplete Partially done – via Thanks in Page history.
In progress In progress – Work on supporting "Thanking" from the DiscussionTools UI is being tracked.
Yes Done
Sort topics by recent comment Yes Done Yes Done N Not done N Not done
Sort topics by start date Yes Done Yes Done N Not done N Not done
Summarize a discussion at the top of it Yes Done Yes Done Incomplete Partially done – by editing opening comment.
Mark a message as read or unread Yes Done N Not done N Not done N Not done
Show/hide (collapse) subthreads Yes Done N Not done N Not done Yes Done

Notifications and interactivity

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LiquidThreads Structured Discussions DiscussionTools Convenient Discussions
Highlight a set of unread comments N Not done Yes Done Yes Done – only when subscribed to a topic and using links from notifications Yes Done
Subscribe to be notified about new comments to a topic Yes Done – via Watchlist Yes Done – via Echo Yes Done – via Echo or itself
Be notified when a new topic is started on a talk page
Auto-subscription to a topic you created Yes Done – default
Highlight a quoted comment N Not done – can link to comments but only as standalone pages Yes Done Yes Done Yes Done
Notification of edited comments Incomplete Partially done – only on your own comments Yes Done N Not done N Not done


Maintenance and moderation

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LiquidThreads Structured Discussions DiscussionTools Convenient Discussions
Direct access to user talkpage, contribs and more Incomplete Partially done – if linked in the signature Yes Done Incomplete Partially done – if linked in the signature
Hide (moderate) a comment Incomplete Partially done – no undelete UI Yes Done Incomplete Partially done – via undo/rollback (requires searching for edit in edit history) or archival templates, not included and requires editing wikitext Yes Done
Hide or delete a topic Yes Done Incomplete Partially done – same as DiscussionTools
Archiving discussions Incomplete Not needed Incomplete Not needed N Not done – see T337293
  • Requires 3rd party bots for automatic archival
  • Requires wikitext editing or 3rd party gadgets for manual archival
N Not done – Same as DiscussionTools, though moving topics can be used for manual archival.
Report an inappropriate comment N Not done N Not done In progress In progress[3] N Not done


Data on usage

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In August 2023, on average:

  • DiscussionTools is used about 18,780 times per day.
  • Flow is used about 250 times per day, mainly at French Wikipedia.
  • LiquidThreads is used less than once per day.

Notes and references

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  1. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T332022
  2. T339247 – Create entry points for the Incident Report dialog with DiscussionTools