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Previous discussion is archived at Talk:Winter/Archive 1.

1989 (talkcontribs)

On the upcoming skin (I think), is there a way that we can have a profile pic instead of a icon; and on the hide sidebar feature, is there a way that we can tap on the logo, and would show the hover menu without going to the main page on mobile when we want to use the full site?

Reply to "Suggestions"
Sillyfolkboy (talkcontribs)

I have lots of issues with the current Wikipedia layout and the Winter prototype appears to fix/improve on nearly all of them! This is great work. Even though most of the time I spend on the site is in edit mode, I instantly appreciate the changes to the read mode.

Out of every single project I've seen, I think *this* should be the priority for the WikiMedia Foundation. It profoundly affects the way the site is seen and used - for the better. I think the dated look and basic functionality of the software is underestimated as a factor in known declining participation.

Only one suggestion - when entering the edit mode, the right rail area remains empty. It would be much more preferable to use this space to either (a) extend the edit text view to a width similar to the current one (in edit mode, the sole focus is the editing area and presentational spacing for improved prose comprehension is not a factor) , or (b) move the most useful editing links/tools/toolbars into this area.

Sillyfolkboy (talkcontribs)

Actually, two more points: categories, portals and navigation boxes should have sections in the right rail. I actually drafted a right aligned box in Wikipedia for this very same purpose two and half years ago and would very much like to see the delivery of that concept by people more technically able than I. Transformation of our "See also" sections into a right rail gadget would also be very useful. All together, these would be nothing short of a navigation revolution for Wikipedia (especially for oft-missed categories and portals).

Reply to "Great stuff - this should be priority"
Felistoria (talkcontribs)

The design of text&pic seems to me (German user) very oldfashioned, because it reminds in a way the first printed books in 15th century, trying to copy the handwitten medieval manuscripts. What I mean: Did you want persons to read articles as they are used to or do you want to present a new medium?

Reply to "Maybe an old and done..."
JKDw (talkcontribs)

Roughly when is Winter expected to be released as a beta feature and as the default skin?

Jdforrester (WMF) (talkcontribs)

I don't know. I don't think there are any current plans for anyone to do that work, sorry.

Quiddity (WMF) (talkcontribs)

IIUC, Winter is not ever intended to be released as a Complete Skin, or a Beta Feature. See Winter#The Winter Framework - it's a test-bed for people (anyone) to experiment at.

JKDw (talkcontribs)

What does any of this experimentation achieve, if there is no intended future for Winter? Is it to build a resource for whichever actual skin will be made in the future? My life is a lie.

Quiddity (WMF) (talkcontribs)

The elements ("snowflakes" in Winter's terminology) can potentially be deployed as either new elements of the existing skin(s), or as standalone BetaFeatures that could also eventually/potentially be merged into a skin. E.g. at we can try out the "Fixed header" BetaFeature.

Tar Lócesilion (talkcontribs)

Right, so what about Right Rail as a BetaFeature? It'd be highly useful for designing wp, help, portal etc. pages, not to mention obvious advantages concerning the main ns.

Quiddity (WMF) (talkcontribs)

I'm not sure how much work would need to be done (as the note on the project page says, "This is fairly large in scope."). There are currently no developers or product managers with the many needed hours to spare. All I can see offhand (but I am not a developer) is

However, Pau is working on some interesting designs for modular rightrail components in Flow (nothing online, yet), for metadata and checklists and similar, so that might be where the work re-begins.

Reply to "Release"
Zebulon84 (talkcontribs)

Reducing the width of the text might be a good idea to improve readability. But some pages contains large tables, for data or just presentation, especially sport projects but not only.

When there is nothing any more on the right side (so below the infobox), these tables should be able to expand to this part, because it feels really strange to have a big tables condensed to a small size in the middle of the page when there is blank area on left and right. I'm thinking about pages like this one or that one.

RandomDSdevel (talkcontribs)

Some of the first items in the right-hand sidebar of the second article to which you linked seem to be cut off, too, and zooming the page seems to exacerbate this problem.

Reply to "Large tables"
Ragesoss (talkcontribs)

I tried the "Fixed header" on Beta Labs (with VE also enabled), and ran into trouble with the big blue Edit button. The little dot on the right has a hover menu to choose between Edit source and VE, but it's very tricky to get the mouse from the blue edit button to the menu links. It usually disappears when I start to move the mouse toward the menu.

Also, on my browsers at least (Iceweasel and Chromium on Debian Testing), the button isn't rendering as intended; there's overlap between the text and the three-dot-menu icon. See

Se4598 (talkcontribs)

see also: T85247 VisualEditor incompatible with "Fixed header" beta feature

Reply to "Fixed header on Beta Labs"
PJosepherum (talkcontribs)

Hey, I'm very impressed with the prototype! There's no mention on this project page, but I'm wondering if it is yet possible to port any of the source code to MW 1.23? Cloning into the skins directory revealed no means of inclusion, thus I can't test or develop locally.

Jorm (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Quim is correct; the prototype is MediaWiki-less. Pure HTML/CSS and JavaScript.

Qgil-WMF (talkcontribs)

As far as I know, this is a MediaWiki-less prototype, floating on raw HTML/CSS/JS.

Reply to "Prototype"

On the Location of Articles' Tables of Contents

RandomDSdevel (talkcontribs)

I like being able to access articles' tables of contents from Winter's main toolbar, but shouldn't this functionality only appear once users have scrolled past articles' actual tables of contents?

Reply to "On the Location of Articles' Tables of Contents"
RandomDSdevel (talkcontribs)

I kind of like it when an article's title replaces the search prompt in Winter right now, but shouldn't the 'Watch Article' star come along for the ride? I also understand how confusing this mechanic can be for people who haven't read up on Winter before test-driving it, so maybe the search bar and the 'article name' bar could be separated but remain side by side? If that were to happen, I'd like to see the 'article views and actions' bar currently residing underneath article titles be merged into this 'article name' bar. Maybe the toolbar could contain, in order, the 'Pin to watchlist' star, a pop-up menu from which you could select either 'Read' or 'Edit,' a pop-up menu from which you could select either 'the article on' or 'discussion about,' the current article's name, an article history button, the 'More' pop-up menu currently at the end of the present 'article views and actions' bar, the search bar, and then, finally, Winter's implementation of the Compact Personal Bar. Or maybe the search bar could still be accessible through a field containing articles' names, but it should just be pointed out to users more obviously that clicking on an article's name would allow them to switch to other articles? Could Winter's search functionality's 'magnifying glass' icon be dimmed? Or could something else differentiate the top bar's functionality for displaying article names and for displaying search terms? Maybe this set of ideas, especially the one about the combined navigation bar, isn't such a good one, though? Should users just have the ability to dock the 'article views and actions' toolbar to the bottom of the main one to create a two-tiered toolbar like the one that already exists in Vector? Perhaps these aren't the best ways to propose how to make Winter's toolbar more useable, though…

Reply to "Improved or Different Header Views?"

On the Behavior of Wikipedia's Logo in Winter

RandomDSdevel (talkcontribs)

I don't really like it that Wikipedia's logo disappears from Winter when you scroll past it. I understand that the idea is to make the prototype's navigational tools take up less space, but couldn't that be achieved just as well by having the Wikipedia logo shrink and move to the left of Wikipedia's name and slogan?

Jdforrester (WMF) (talkcontribs)

You mean switch from the main logo to the horizontal logo shown above? That could work, but we'd need to go and create each of the hundreds of horizontal logos as we've not used it widely. Also, as has been widely observed before, the logo isn't very good as a logo and at small scale like this is very indistinct; using just the word mark is I think preferable.

RandomDSdevel (talkcontribs)

Hmm…you're probably right in saying that creating so many horizontal labels (they're for the various languages in which Wikipedia is available, right?) would take a lot of work, but do you have an estimate as to how much work it would actually take? And maybe having the icon in the horizontal version of the logo could be optional and/or experimental?

Jdforrester (WMF) (talkcontribs)

It took a concerted effort over a couple of years to re-create all the different language versions of the vertical logo after the Wikipedia logo changed in 2007 (I believe the effort started in 2009 and was declared "mostly done" in 2011). Creating them from scratch rather than needing to also drop them into place and thus negotiate with a community will make it faster, but… Mostly, this is a question of "who will do this?" rather than "how much work is it?" I feel.

RandomDSdevel (talkcontribs)

Why would creating a bunch of new, but differently sized, image files from ones that currently exist be so hard? Do the logos' image files already have their text embedded within them? That would certainly complicate things, I suppose. The text within the images would probably have to be redesigned for use in a vertical layout language by language…man, this would be so much easier if the logo text was just part of Wikipedia's general page layout (either as a separate image or as actual text,) wouldn't it? I'd help, but I don't really have that good of grasp of all the issues, let alone of how to use image-editing tools. This stinks…

Jdforrester (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Sadly, yes, the bespoke existing images each have localised text embedded inside the images. It'll need re-laying and possibly re-thinking in some cases. :-(

RandomDSdevel (talkcontribs)

Well, curse our luck! Would the powers that be possibly consider separating this text out like I suggested above? Like I said before, that would make work on this issue so much easier!

Reply to "On the Behavior of Wikipedia's Logo in Winter"