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Previous discussion is archived at Talk:Winter/Archive 1.

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SamanthaNguyen (talkcontribs)

This seemed to be a very cool project, but it's a bit disappointing that it's no longer 'maintained'. It looked liked there was a lot of effort that went into this, especially considering money was paid to start user testing. ( Man these are expensive!)

So, since it's dead, what happens to it? Is there something that's going to replace this framework? Or could it still be picked back up?

SamanthaNguyen (talkcontribs)


Reply to "What happens next?"
C933103 (talkcontribs)

See , on mobile chrome browser, the first image show bottombar blocked some language selection on the right when content is too short and there are too many languages, and secondly at the same time while in the winter page the jump to Ænglisc page and arabic page is successful, it can't jump to like chinese or canton

George Orwell III (talkcontribs)

fwiw... there is a fair number of invalid entries in the current winter.css file and your observation is most likely being caused by one or more of these invalid entries -- primarily

  • ''overflow:" is set to invalid entry ''show'' rather than the proper value ''visible''; possibly followed by
  • several instances where the absolute positioning attributes such as ''top:" and/or ''left:'' are set to unit-less values such as ''10'', ''155'' & ''40'' instead of ''10px'', ''155px'' & ''40px''
  • . . . among several other "mistakes".

In fact, all the winter/snowflake related .css files need to be [re]checked against's .css validator at:

Reply to "Some problems"
Ypna (talkcontribs)

Roughly when is Winter expected to be released as a beta feature and as the default skin?

Jdforrester (WMF) (talkcontribs)

I don't know. I don't think there are any current plans for anyone to do that work, sorry.

Quiddity (WMF) (talkcontribs)

IIUC, Winter is not ever intended to be released as a Complete Skin, or a Beta Feature. See Winter#The Winter Framework - it's a test-bed for people (anyone) to experiment at.

Ypna (talkcontribs)

What does any of this experimentation achieve, if there is no intended future for Winter? Is it to build a resource for whichever actual skin will be made in the future? My life is a lie.

Quiddity (WMF) (talkcontribs)

The elements ("snowflakes" in Winter's terminology) can potentially be deployed as either new elements of the existing skin(s), or as standalone BetaFeatures that could also eventually/potentially be merged into a skin. E.g. at we can try out the "Fixed header" BetaFeature.

Tar Lócesilion (talkcontribs)

Right, so what about Right Rail as a BetaFeature? It'd be highly useful for designing wp, help, portal etc. pages, not to mention obvious advantages concerning the main ns.

Quiddity (WMF) (talkcontribs)

I'm not sure how much work would need to be done (as the note on the project page says, "This is fairly large in scope."). There are currently no developers or product managers with the many needed hours to spare. All I can see offhand (but I am not a developer) is

However, Pau is working on some interesting designs for modular rightrail components in Flow (nothing online, yet), for metadata and checklists and similar, so that might be where the work re-begins.

He7d3r (talkcontribs)


Reply to "Release"
Kghbln (talkcontribs)

Is this still an active project?

Ckoerner (talkcontribs)

I have no insider information so this is all speculation, but my understanding that with Jorm's departure Winter is in stasis as a separate 'thing'. He was one of the large proponents behind it. As Tar mentions, it's really the bringing together of multiple projects to bring a more cohesive design to the interface of MediaWiki/WMF-projects.

I'd love to be corrected on this if wrong, but I think reaching out to the design team and looking at the MediaWiki UI and UI Standardization Board in Phabricator might shed more light on where things are going.

Tar Lócesilion (talkcontribs)

Afaik, strictly speaking, this was never a project. It's rather a vision of several projects, developed separately and with different priority. We can see some of them already (Typography Refresh, MediaWiki UI, if I'm correct) and have to wait for the next (e.g. Right Rail).

Kghbln (talkcontribs)

Thanks for your reply. I believe most people think that this was about creating the next generation skin for MediaWiki. Personally I have never seen it as a "mutilated" Vector thing. So Winter did not end up in permafrost...

RandomDSdevel (talkcontribs)

Ha! I see what you did there, and I like your sense of humor.

Reply to "Still active?"
Felistoria (talkcontribs)

The design of text&pic seems to me (German user) very oldfashioned, because it reminds in a way the first printed books in 15th century, trying to copy the handwitten medieval manuscripts. What I mean: Did you want persons to read articles as they are used to or do you want to present a new medium?

This comment was hidden by Ypna (history)
Reply to "Maybe an old and done..."
RandomDSdevel (talkcontribs)

Has anybody noticed that the sidebar looks kind of weird if you scroll away from the top of the page after hiding the sidebar and then showing it again? I like how this makes the sidebar come with you as you scroll, but shouldn't its formatting remain the same as that which it takes on when you're at the top of the page after you've scrolled away from there?

This comment was hidden by RandomDSdevel (history)
Reply to "Weird Sidebar Behavior"
1989 (talkcontribs)

On the upcoming skin (I think), is there a way that we can have a profile pic instead of a icon; and on the hide sidebar feature, is there a way that we can tap on the logo, and would show the hover menu without going to the main page on mobile when we want to use the full site?

Reply to "Suggestions"
Sillyfolkboy (talkcontribs)

I have lots of issues with the current Wikipedia layout and the Winter prototype appears to fix/improve on nearly all of them! This is great work. Even though most of the time I spend on the site is in edit mode, I instantly appreciate the changes to the read mode.

Out of every single project I've seen, I think *this* should be the priority for the WikiMedia Foundation. It profoundly affects the way the site is seen and used - for the better. I think the dated look and basic functionality of the software is underestimated as a factor in known declining participation.

Only one suggestion - when entering the edit mode, the right rail area remains empty. It would be much more preferable to use this space to either (a) extend the edit text view to a width similar to the current one (in edit mode, the sole focus is the editing area and presentational spacing for improved prose comprehension is not a factor) , or (b) move the most useful editing links/tools/toolbars into this area.

Sillyfolkboy (talkcontribs)

Actually, two more points: categories, portals and navigation boxes should have sections in the right rail. I actually drafted a right aligned box in Wikipedia for this very same purpose two and half years ago and would very much like to see the delivery of that concept by people more technically able than I. Transformation of our "See also" sections into a right rail gadget would also be very useful. All together, these would be nothing short of a navigation revolution for Wikipedia (especially for oft-missed categories and portals).

Reply to "Great stuff - this should be priority"
Ragesoss (talkcontribs)

I tried the "Fixed header" on Beta Labs (with VE also enabled), and ran into trouble with the big blue Edit button. The little dot on the right has a hover menu to choose between Edit source and VE, but it's very tricky to get the mouse from the blue edit button to the menu links. It usually disappears when I start to move the mouse toward the menu.

Also, on my browsers at least (Iceweasel and Chromium on Debian Testing), the button isn't rendering as intended; there's overlap between the text and the three-dot-menu icon. See

Se4598 (talkcontribs)

see also: T85247 VisualEditor incompatible with "Fixed header" beta feature

Reply to "Fixed header on Beta Labs"

On the Behavior of Wikipedia's Logo in Winter

RandomDSdevel (talkcontribs)

I don't really like it that Wikipedia's logo disappears from Winter when you scroll past it. I understand that the idea is to make the prototype's navigational tools take up less space, but couldn't that be achieved just as well by having the Wikipedia logo shrink and move to the left of Wikipedia's name and slogan?

Jdforrester (WMF) (talkcontribs)

You mean switch from the main logo to the horizontal logo shown above? That could work, but we'd need to go and create each of the hundreds of horizontal logos as we've not used it widely. Also, as has been widely observed before, the logo isn't very good as a logo and at small scale like this is very indistinct; using just the word mark is I think preferable.

RandomDSdevel (talkcontribs)

Hmm…you're probably right in saying that creating so many horizontal labels (they're for the various languages in which Wikipedia is available, right?) would take a lot of work, but do you have an estimate as to how much work it would actually take? And maybe having the icon in the horizontal version of the logo could be optional and/or experimental?

Jdforrester (WMF) (talkcontribs)

It took a concerted effort over a couple of years to re-create all the different language versions of the vertical logo after the Wikipedia logo changed in 2007 (I believe the effort started in 2009 and was declared "mostly done" in 2011). Creating them from scratch rather than needing to also drop them into place and thus negotiate with a community will make it faster, but… Mostly, this is a question of "who will do this?" rather than "how much work is it?" I feel.

RandomDSdevel (talkcontribs)

Why would creating a bunch of new, but differently sized, image files from ones that currently exist be so hard? Do the logos' image files already have their text embedded within them? That would certainly complicate things, I suppose. The text within the images would probably have to be redesigned for use in a vertical layout language by language…man, this would be so much easier if the logo text was just part of Wikipedia's general page layout (either as a separate image or as actual text,) wouldn't it? I'd help, but I don't really have that good of grasp of all the issues, let alone of how to use image-editing tools. This stinks…

Jdforrester (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Sadly, yes, the bespoke existing images each have localised text embedded inside the images. It'll need re-laying and possibly re-thinking in some cases. :-(

RandomDSdevel (talkcontribs)

Well, curse our luck! Would the powers that be possibly consider separating this text out like I suggested above? Like I said before, that would make work on this issue so much easier!

Reply to "On the Behavior of Wikipedia's Logo in Winter"