Talk:Map improvements 2018

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Leave your thoughts and ideas here about the "Map improvements 2018" project.

Mxn (talkcontribs)

How frequently are the osm-intl tiles rerendered to reflect changes to OpenStreetMap? Map improvements 2018#April 18, 2018, Special Update on Map Internationalization says it currently takes up to 48 hours, which I take to mean the time it takes for the extract or planet diff to be pulled in, as opposed to the tile rendering schedule. A change I made 15 days ago, correcting the name of a major city in Vietnam, appears at z10 and above but not at z9 or below. Is there a way to force-update a particular tile, similar to appending /dirty to URLs on the OpenStreetMap tile server?

GLederrey (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Sorry for the late answer (vacation). The process is as follow:

1) upgrade our local copy of OSM (postgresql database) every day (we are planning to increase this frequency)

2) regenerate vector tiles for any tile that has changed, triggered by the above update, but can take a few hours to complete 3) raster tiles are then generated on request, from the vector tiles and cached for up to 24h

There is no public ways to trigger steps 1) and 2). You can always bypass the cache by adding a dummy parameter to the URL to test if the issue is in 3).

All that being said, an update not showing after 15 days definitely sounds like a bug on our side! Could you please open a ticket on phabricator and tag it with "Maps"? Thanks!

Pnorman (talkcontribs)

We follow the standard practice of only regenerating high-zoom tiles based on updates. I've created task T194787 about regenerating low-zoom tiles.

Pnorman (talkcontribs)

I also ran a manual run to regenerate z0-z9 in both data centers, which should result in those tiles being fixed.

Mxn (talkcontribs)
JMatazzoni (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Interesting question @Mxn. I'm pinging @Sbisson (WMF), who may be able to help you with an answer.

Reply to "Tile refresh frequency"
RobinLeicester (talkcontribs)

Is there a plan to include the zoom and pan capabilities within mapframe? At present they only appear in preview mode, which seems a bit pointless. Similarly the really helpful scale bar also vanishes when I publish changes. Are they likely to make it into the final vesion?

JMatazzoni (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hi Robin. Best would be if you could include a URL, so we can have a look at your specific issue.

But in general, I think what you're describing is this: most Wikipedias are configured so that the mapframe map embedded on the page is not dynamic. It's a graphic, which means you can't pan or zoom it, as you say. I think this is done to reduce page load times (or server load?). To get pan and zoom, you click on the map, which pops up the dynamic version. On Wikivoyages, by contrast, the dynamic version is embedded in the page. In theory we could reconfigure your wiki to show dynamic maps, but I don't know what the impact would be, especially if it's one of the larger wikis. Perhaps @Catrope might know?

The missing map scale gauge is something I hadn't noticed before. Thanks for pointing it out. I can clearly see what you mean on these test pages: testwiki is configured for static maps (and shows no scale markers) while test2 wiki is configured for dynamic mapframes (and has the scale). I can't think of a reason why we wouldn't want to display this useful informational item, so I've created a ticket for this bug.

RobinLeicester (talkcontribs)

I was about to ask whether zoom and latitude/longitude values could be accessed while in editing preview in en:mapframe, and discovered that it already works on a right click. Great work ... now the interactive mode all makes sense to me. Really useful feature for setting up a map, which probably needs talking up in the documentation. Thanks.

JMatazzoni (WMF) (talkcontribs)

>...discovered that it already works on a right click.

I'd love to document the feature you're referring to but I'm not following. Can you take me through step-by-step? Are you talking about using Visual Editor with maps, perhaps?

RobinLeicester (talkcontribs)

No, it is within the normal traditional editing preview. If I have understood phabricator correctly, it is the feature described at to 'Show current coordinates & zoom in edit preview & VE mode'

The value lies in the fact that you might add a mapframe knowing just the coordinates of a feature. However, that simply plonks the map centred on that feature. You can then preview the map, and then adjust the zoom and position to show the segment of map that best displays what is wanted, and then right click in the centre of the frame and copy the coordinate details, ready to paste back into the template.

Reply to "Missing controls"
Pigsonthewing (talkcontribs)

I and others have been working for some time, to add Wikidata IDs to objects in OSM - both as a 1:1 relation, and for things like brand:wikidata=Q38076 (Q38076 is the item for McDonald's). See for details and more examples.

It would be good to hear, please, how such tags are, or might be, used by this initiative - there's no mention of Wikidata on Map improvements 2018.

It would also be good to educate our fellow Wikimedians about this,and to encourage them to add - with due care - more Wikidata IDs to OSM.

Wolfgang8741 (talkcontribs)

I'll second you points.

One tool that would be very useful in linking OSM and WikiData/Wikipedia would be the hosting of a global instance of The Italian version demos the utility of the identificaiton of unlinked objects It would help in assessing completeness and provide a lower barrier to broader participation in OSM to Wikidata linking.

I'm currently working on an import of GNIS IDs to WikiData to enable import of various statements to target matching. Starting with Lakes.

CKoerner (WMF) (talkcontribs)


The Maps improvements 2018 project has a set scope and time frame. Improving and enhancing the knowledge of and use of Wikidata IDs, unfortunately, is not part of this work. However, Joe (the PM for the project), myself and Stephane (a engineer) were recently invited to have a chat with the Wikimaps user group. One of the topics discussed was around what the user group can do to work within communities to promote and encourage work like you describe. @Jeffme might be able to share a link to the notes from the meeting if you want more information.

I can only speak for myself, but I'm hoping to work with some folks from the group at the upcoming Hackathon and beyond to provide advice on how to spread the word to more people. One of the ideas was to see if there could be a Wikimedia/OSM event (like a hackathon) in the future. Reaching out to that group might be a way to combine powers. :)

Related, and some folks are already aware, but there is the Wikidata page on OSM's wiki Perhaps there's more that can be done there? On the Wikimedia side, feedback and documentation improvements are always welcome.

Pigsonthewing (talkcontribs)

Unfortunately I won't be at the hackathon, but I'd be very interested in being involved in OSM/Wikimedia collaborations - and especially work on including Wikidata IDs in OSM - going forward.

Pigsonthewing (talkcontribs)

Could we have an update on discussions at the hackathon, please? (A pointer to blog post, etherpad or similar would suffice.)

Reply to "Wikidata IDs in OSM"
Traveler100 (talkcontribs)

Is there a page for requesting new functions to the map functionality. Specifically the one one use on Wikivoyage when you click on a listing number? Or is this the page. What I am looking for is the possibility to see my current position. As this is a travel site, mobile usage is important.

Reply to "Current location"

Can we have a page for stats on Internationalization and a simpler tool for name translation ?

Naveenpf (talkcontribs)

Hi Team,

We are displaying only selected features like street name and place name. Can we have stats for all the languages we are supporting and number of tags to be translated ?
Also if Map improvement team can bring in simpler tag editor only specific to street name and place name editor it will be good. iD and JOSM will not good start for Wikimedians for translation. We can reuse Nomino or some tools like this meta:User:WikedKentaur/OSM-Wikipedia_place_name_tool

-- Naveenpf (talk) 08:05, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Pnorman (talkcontribs)

We're supporting "all" languages, not a predefined list. There are about 210 languages with more than 10 000 names in OSM. We can't do stats for the number of tags to be translated, because there's no "completed" state. OSM stores names in multiple languages, and most things will not have a name in most languages. As an example, names in North Straits Salish would only be found a small area on the Salish Sea.

Naveenpf (talkcontribs)
Arlo Barnes (talkcontribs)

Edit: missed the Meta link which is the same thing I propose, please disregard.

"iD and JOSM will not good start for Wikimedians for translation" But the Wikimedia community can still help to increase the quality of name localisation on OSM due to the fact that Wikidata is among other things a huge database of articles in various languages about places, so the article names can be suggested through the OSM edit tools to mappers as potential localisations. OSM rightly frowns upon automated data imports, but with a human in the loop this could be very useful. Wikidata identifiers are already a commonly used field for OSM entities so it would not be hard to figure out which feature to suggest for.

JMatazzoni (WMF) (talkcontribs)

I think Arlo is right that there is very interesting potential here, but that you will need to consult with the OSM community on any such project. This list of OSM mailing lists might give you a good start on that.

As to your question about how many tags need to be translated, that is, again, an OSM question. It's possible that the OSM tool Overpass API is the right one for such a query. But this is really a question for someone with more OSM knowledge than me. Good luck!.

Reply to "Can we have a page for stats on Internationalization and a simpler tool for name translation ?"
Betterkeks (talkcontribs)

This is awesome.

However, are there limitations? I can’t seem to get rivers to show up as geolines. Roads work fine. Is that a limitation?

Pnorman (talkcontribs)

It's hard to say without a wikidata id so I can look at what you're trying to display, but my guess is that the wikidata tag is on the OSM relation, not the ways. OSM type=waterway relations are not imported into the default osm2pgsql database. This should change when we roll out the style improvements, which include a database schema change.

Betterkeks (talkcontribs)

The wikidata ID is Q1137387. Yes, it’s a type=waterway relation.

Are you rolling out the style improvements?

Pnorman (talkcontribs)
Reply to "Limitations"
Llywelyn2000 (talkcontribs)

Sounds really cool if it's in Welsh (cy), and ONLY in Welsh. If the placenames and streetnames are in any other language then please do not enable. @Oergell / we have these names in Welsh in OSM format to work with (OSM will only use English in UK; sad)! Also, all placenames are in Welsh on Wikidata. ~~~~

JMatazzoni (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hi @Llywelyn2000. Thanks for your question. Here is the list of language fallbacks. I'm sorry that the list is in codes instead of human language names, but as you say, the code for Welsh is "cy", and I don't see an entry here for that. So it appears that your compatriots feel as you do, and that no fallback language has been defined for Welsh.

Which means that you should be safe, for maps of Wales at any rate: on Welsh Wikipedia such maps should show labels in Welsh only.

Maps of other countries (on Welsh Wikipedia) will fall back to the local language when a Welsh label isn't available. Or you can add Welsh labels in OpenStreetMap, and then those labels will take precedence. (I plan to write a mini-tutorial soon for Wikipedians who want to add labels in OSM; I'll post a notice to the project page). Let me know how it works out. Pob Iwc! (with apologies if I messed that up)

Llywelyn2000 (talkcontribs)

Hi. Thanks for coming back, so quickly. You say: you should be safe, for maps of Wales at any rate: on Welsh Wikipedia such maps should show labels in Welsh only. - from where would the placenames come from? You should be safe isn't a certainty, and therefore not acceptable. As I say, Welsh placenames are NOT available on OSM; I also said 'OSM will only use English in UK; sad'. What this means is that Welsh place names are not allowed on OSM., so your video is not relevant in our case.

As I said (and I repeat) we have these names in Welsh in OSM format to work with. As we (@Oergell) have a db, we could upload to Wikidata. Can we get the placenames onto the map from WD?

Also, we on cy-wiki, like many others, use the original languages, not languages imposed by outsiders eg all placenames in Asturia are in the Asturian language (not Spanish), all places in Catalunia will be in Catalan (not Spanish), all places in Scotland are in Scottish Gaelic (not English). Before this map is enabled we need assurance that the map will show these native languages, not imposed languages.

Thanks again.

CKoerner (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hi, @Llywelyn2000. I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I understand.

> Welsh place names are not allowed on OSM.

There are not many items with labels defined specifically in Welsh, but it does seem that OSM contributors can add Welsh tags to items. Perhaps I misunderstand, but what do you mean by "not allowed"?

This is complicated. OSM's "name:" tag is not clear. There is no way to know what the language being used for "name:" is - in any language, much less Welsh. :/

The way Wikimedia maps have implemented languages is described more on the help page. We try to respect the language defined on the wiki where the map appears (Welsh). If that is not possible, because the data is not in OSM, we then use language fallbacks (none on Welsh Wikipedia, right?). If there are still no labels, then the language of the territory mapped is used. We are limited in what we can do as the information from OSM is incomplete and under constant improvement. Similar to Wikimedia projects! :)

I hope this helps clarify things. If you have questions, please ask. If you still feel like the Welsh Wikipedia would not want maps at all I have a small favor. Could you please help us by building consensus on the project around this subject? A discussion with the community would help us feel more confident making the decision either way. Welsh Wikipedia is smaller community, so I hope this isn't too much to ask.

JMatazzoni (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Perhaps it will help to look at an example. This links shows a map of Wales centering around Caerdydd (Cardiff) As you can see, the names in Wales are in Welsh. This is because the link contains the parameter and value lang=cy, which sets the map language. This command will be available on all Wikipedias soon. (It can be used now on test and test2 .)

If you scroll left on the map, you'll see that Iwerddon is the name given for Ireland. That's because OpenStreetMap volunteers have added that Welsh name to the OSM database. If you scroll to the right, the UK is similarly labeled Deyrnas Unedig, though many other names have fallen back to the local language, English.

So, @Llywelyn2000, if you'd like to see the map of the Deyrnas Unedig fully in Welsh, then you can, on Welsh wikis or for any map you create using lang="cy". You simply need to add more cy place names for the UK (or anywhere else) in OSM (@CKoerner (WMF) and I ware working on a Help page to make this process more understndable for Wikipedians). I hope that helps.

Llywelyn2000 (talkcontribs)

WHOW! i've edited maybe 35% of the OSM interface into Welsh over the years but have been unable to find the cy option! I was told that it wasn't allowed! How does the ordinary reader access it?

This is great news, and i'm certain that the community will be very happy! I'm still waiting for my friend to come back as he has (as I mentioned) other OSM-ready files - mainly road names.

Can we also make batch uploads with databases eg upload the Asturian names for places in Asturias, Gaelic names for places in Scotland - to correspond with the article names which are always in the original language. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 19:50, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Llywelyn2000 (talkcontribs)

My last paragraph (batch uploads): this would be very easy on Wikidata, using QuickStatements e.g. for all placenames in Britany, use Breton words (rather than newer French). So the Welsh name = the Breton name.

I also note that OSM uses UN recognised states (so political!), rather than any other method. Cy-wiki, being un-political, recognises Scotland as being a country as well as being part of the UK, and therefore the name Scotland would need to be in bold (like the Isle of Man), and same with Britany, Catalonia and the Basque Country. Otherwise, it looks good!

JMatazzoni (WMF) (talkcontribs)

> How does the ordinary reader access it?

I'm sure your interest in enriching the OSM data set will be most welcome! If you go to and search for Caerdydd, Wales, you'll find an entry for "City: Cardiff...." Clicking on that will bring you to this page, for the Cardiff "node". If you look on the left you'll see the list of multilingual names, including the one for "cy".

Adding more multilingual names one-by-one is pretty straightforward using the OSM native editor. I mean to write some Help about this and can't cover it here, but the only real trick is in making sure you've found the right object—in this case the "city" "node"—as opposed to the city boundary line, administrative unit, city hall, etc. (Hint: once you're zoomed in enough and have entered the editor, you can use search to find the "city" or "node".)

> Can we also make batch uploads with databases?

That's a question for the OSM community. I've been told that they are sensitive about Wikimedia users coming in with bots and batch uploads, as they have had bad experiences in the past. So you'll want to consult with the OSM users about this idea. Here is the list of OSM mailing lists. I'll try to find out which is the best one for a discussion about adding names.

Arlo Barnes (talkcontribs)
Roan Kattouw (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Crucially, we display labels for center nodes but not for municipal boundaries etc (as far as I know). In many places OSM has both a center node and a boundary relation for the same city, but only the nodes' names actually end up appearing on our maps.

Llywelyn2000 (talkcontribs)

Thanks. Maybe my first question wasn't clear. I understand how to edit a node. The bit that hits me is how does a reader turn on the Welsh placenames? I've just opened a firefox web page and searched OSM; it opened the English interface with English placenames - OSM really should work out my location and given me an option (Welsh, English or other lang) - but my point is this - how do does the ordinary reader change language?

Batch upload - is Sophox also a sensitive matter? Re: So you'll want to consult with the OSM users about this idea. I prefer keeping this discussion in one place, thanks.

UN Recognised States - you have no solution to this? 'Cymru' ('Wales' - which has been a country for 1,500 years!) isn't even on the map of Wales. That's really political, and is not in line with Wikipedia - even English Wikipedia - look at Wales:Talk page

So at the moment we have two major stumbling blocks:1. Native placenames in other countries such as the Basque country; second OSM is too political (uses only UN recognised states). These are not in line with Wikimedia thinking on diversity or the cy-wiki users.

Roan Kattouw (WMF) (talkcontribs)

OSM does not show localized names on its own maps. As far as we know, WMF's map server will be the first one to show localized names. When viewing maps on a WMF wiki, they will be displayed in the language of the wiki they are viewed on (so maps on cywiki will be in Welsh), unless you use syntax like <mapframe lang="nl" ...>to force a specific language (which is what I did here to make some demo maps).

As for the UN-recognized states issue: that's an issue with OSM, which is beyond our control, as OSM has its own community that makes these determinations and we use their data. However, we are working on a new map style that, among other things, will display labels for things like states, provinces and constituent countries; so once that update is out (no timeline for that yet, unfortunately), the labels for Wales, Scotland, Catalunya, etc will appear.

As for "native placenames in other countries such as the Basque country", that also depends on what the OSM data says. Every node in OSM has a name attribute, which is the primary/local name, plus attributes for translated names like name:en, name:cy, etc. Our maps try to display the label in the chosen language (i.e. on cywiki we'll show name:cy), and if that doesn't exist we'll fall back on the name attribute. That means that for places in the Basque country, we'll display whatever is in the name attribute (if they don't have name:cy, I'm assuming most of them don't). Whether that is the Basque name or the Spanish name depends on what OSM's policies are, and I'm not familiar with those. I took a very quick look, and it looks like most places in the Basque country are double-labeled (e.g. "Donostia / Sán Sebastián").

Llywelyn2000 (talkcontribs)

Many thanks Roan. P1 WMF's map server will be the first one to show localized names. - I think this is an extraordinary step in the correct direction. In my opening gambit I did mention the fact that OSM does not show localized names when I said (OSM will only use English in UK; sad). Thanks everybody for this giant step towards conserving the rich diversity of this little planet of ours.

P2 If there's a layer of additional info on the way, as you say, then that will go a long way; do you have a link please? This is good.

P3 The double-labeled / bilingual placenames in the Basque Country look good, and as long as they remain bilingual I see no problem.

I'll now go back to the Welsh community with a recommendation to accept, on the condition that point 2 above is confirmed (link please).

Roan Kattouw (WMF) (talkcontribs)

For more information about the new style, see this mailing list post by Paul Norman, which includes a link to a demo (please read the caveats and instructions before using the demo). The demo server also doesn't have the internationalization software, so you'll see labels in the local language of each place, and there's a known issue with some labels having encoding problems.

Pigsonthewing (talkcontribs)
Pigsonthewing (talkcontribs)
Llywelyn2000 (talkcontribs)

@Pigsonthewing is a direct response to the fact that "OSM will only use English in UK"; it's a Welsh Government funded project to ensure that a Welsh place-names open map is available. Until mapframe was offered a few weeks ago, we were going to use on cy-wiki. Now we have a choice.

Pigsonthewing - thanks for the link; yes, very relevant. (NB Keep us informed on including Wikidata IDs in OSM, please.)

@JMatazzoni (WMF) - your link showing "a map of Wales centering around Caerdydd (Cardiff)" has stopped working.

Roan Kattouw (WMF) (talkcontribs)
Pigsonthewing (talkcontribs)

No, it's a rendering of the Welsh place names that are part of OpenStreetMap. In other words, for suitable places in the United Kingdom, OSM is using Welsh.

Pnorman (talkcontribs)

Labels are what we render, and names are what OpenStreetMap stores. OSM has been including Welsh names for a long time. name:cy=Caerdydd has been on for 8 years, and probably was on the previous node.

The name tag should be in the local language. If you want to discuss what what that should be and you're in a multi-lingual area, you need to discuss it with your local OSM community. It's an OSM decision, not a wikimedia one.

Reply to "cy-wiki = cy"
Haros (talkcontribs)

Hi. I got a mail from one of the Norwegian OSM-mappers. He/she have found a bug in the map for lang=nb.

I have made two examples in the test wiki where things fails.

Note that for Norwegian, nb and nn, the language codes nb and nn shall usually not be used in OSM, but the code no that contains both. I think that definition by OSM is correct and far less error-prone than attempting to have both nb and nn defined. From the Wikipedias however, you should expect to receive lang="nb"and lang="nn"

JMatazzoni (WMF) (talkcontribs)
OSM name data for Sweden, showing no nb entry
OSM name data for Sweden, showing no nb entry

I'm not sure I follow your information fully, but this isn't a bug in our system, at any rate. As you can see in the screenshot below, there is no nb entry for Sweden in OpenStreetMap. Are you saying you can't enter nb?

Haros (talkcontribs)

Yes I could enter a name for nb, but that would be against the rules for how names in Norwegian shall be given as defined by OpenStreetMap.

As long as the name is identical in nb and nn, none of those shall be given, only the code no shall be used. And the name for Sweden is Sverige in both nb and nn. There is indeed an entry for no with that name.

The fallback for nb should at least have no present, and ahead of nn.

Similar should be for nn.

(I just wrote about this in Tinget on no-wiki.)

Haros (talkcontribs)
JMatazzoni (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Here are the actual fallback settings. You can see that nb falls back on nn, and nn falls back on nb. But there is no fallback for "no".

We added some information to the Kartographer Help page to explain how you can change your fallback settings. You should get community consensus, but it shouldn't be too hard, since you can change your maps fallbacks without changing the general fallback languages for the wiki. (The lists are mostly identical now, but are separate.) So it should be require less convincing.

As long as you're thinking about changing your fallbacks, you might want to consider including a language like English, which has a lot of OSM multilingual names, in your fallback list, since Norwegian isn't in even the top 25 languages for OSM multilingual data. That should make maps of foreign places look more readable. E.g., here is China with the language set to Norwegian, and here it is in English. If, having made that change, you started seeing English names showing up in maps of Norway, you could use the lang="local" setting, as described here. Good luck, and let us know how it works out!

Haros (talkcontribs)

As I wrote above, I just wrote on Tinget about this. That was in order to establish a consensus on this. In the meanwhile I have used lang="no".

I'm not sure how I could utilize lang="local". Perhaps checking that Wikidata has a P17=Q20 (i.e. country is Norway)?

I'm aware of the China problem. Looks much better for Korea and Japan for some reason I have not yet discovered.

The fallback for no should probably be nb,nn by the way, as the majority uses nb.

Roan Kattouw (WMF) (talkcontribs)

I've filed a task for this and written a patch to set the following fallbacks:

  • nb: First no, then nn
  • nn: First no, then nb
  • no: First nb, then nn

We'll get that rolled out some time next week.

Haros (talkcontribs)

Thanks, that will solve the main problem.

I will seek local consensus on no-wiki for the fallback to en and add a task for that. There cannot be too many cases like Florence, Vienna etc, where we will need to add no names to the OSM.

This will be a very good feature to have, once the special cases have been solved.

Reply to "Norwegian (nb)"
Atsirlin (talkcontribs)

We are thrilled to hear that the internationalization is coming! (I am sorry if I did not sound very enthusiastic during the meeting, but for me this was a late-night meeting). Maybe one question to the Collaboration team: is there space for other requests, and the hope for a long-term development, or will the effort be over after the internationalization is done?

JMatazzoni (WMF) (talkcontribs)

HI @Atsirlin. I enjoyed your presentation! I'll answer your question about the work we're doing and what work we might take on by pointing to a couple of pages.

  • List of prioritized tasks: This list shows all the tasks we've currently prioritized for the Collaboration team maps engagement. We can't promise we'll get to all of them, but we're giving it our best shot.
  • Project goals: We're happy to talk about other tasks you think are important, so long as they are consistent with the project goals and philosophy, as described on the page I've linked to. Which is to say, the project aims to improve the reliability of the maps tech generally, and to add features (mostly from the Wishlist) that improve the experience for basic "locator" maps. We're also interested in bringing maps to a wider audience, which is why we may, if we have time, make mapframe work on Flagged-Revs wikis.

I realize that Wikivoyagers are among those who have pushed interactive mapping the furthest, so the goals here may disappoint in some ways. But the judgement of our technical and design teams is that more advanced features aren't supportable with the resources available.

That said, we'll be happy to talk with you about any work that you think needs to be done. Just remember that Collaboration team will roll off this project the end of June, so it's a zero-sum game: adding new tasks will likely require us to drop some of the existing ones.

TheDJ (talkcontribs)

> But the judgement of our technical and design teams is that more advanced features aren't supportable with the resources available.

@JMatazzoni (WMF) I think that is valid, but I'd like to point out that some of the existing tools of Kartographer, severely limit the communities' abilities when trying to expand upon the current feature set. (by wrapping and hiding standard leaflet interfaces in 'private' vars of objects etc.) That limits the reusability of those tools, which in turn is likely to cause the community to sidestep Kartographer at points where they want to innovate. This is especially visible in the in-ability to add layers (currently only possible for Wikivoyage).

It is my opinion that it is important for longterm stability and success, to let go of some of that control and put trust and responsibility back to the community level and enable them to experiment and innovate upon the work of WMF.

JMatazzoni (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Thanks for your input @TheDJ. Is there a particular ticket you're recommending for consideration?

This post was hidden by Clump (history)
JMatazzoni (WMF) (talkcontribs)

@TheDJ, thanks again for your note about impediments to community innovation. I'll check with the team on the issues you raise. Meanwhile, if there are any specific issues you can name—and especially any specific tickets—I promise we'll look into them.

TheDJ (talkcontribs)

@JMatazzoni (WMF) some of them would be,,, my stated opinion in

A big part of my problem with those last few, is that we are trying to push <mapframe>, yet not supporting map frame development after this sprint. At the same time we are not allowing editors to make it more flexible and finding the best way to support other editors.

Instead we should have generic leaflet widgets that can be used independently (even from toollabs ) and <mapframe> limitations should be provided as easily reusable warnings and restrictions. Then let people muck about and just tell them to use the easily accessible warning dialogs etc etc.. instead of trying to push everyone in a straightjacket they will just crawl out of.

That's a better use of everyone's time.

Kaldari (talkcontribs)

I think you might be overestimating the purpose of this project. It is neither to "pull more people into our maps" or "trying to push <mapframe>". The only two goals of this project are:

  • To ensure that Kartographer and the associated maps technology stack are stable and can be easily maintained as maps gain a wider audience.
  • To accomplish the two “main wishes” named in the Community Wishlist proposal, along with as many of the other wishes as are possible in the time provided. The main wishes are T112948, “All map location names should be shown in the user's language” and T180907, “Add zoom level 19.”

Before last year's Community Wishlist Survey, the WMF was considering killing the maps feature entirely since we didn't have the resources to properly maintain and support it. Until we have those resources, we want to keep maps as simple as possible. There is no maps team (apart from 1 part-time contractor), and the Collaboration team will have no involvement whatsoever with maps after July 1. If you can convince folks that removing the restrictions from Kartographer will make support and maintenance of maps easier, rather than more complicated, they will likely go along with your suggestions, but otherwise it's going to be a hard sell.

TheDJ (talkcontribs)

> I think you might be overestimating the purpose of this project.

@Kaldari, no I think I'm well aware that I'm asking for things that won't be delivered. But I state them anyways, because if people don't mention it, we might forget we have a problem. :)

Kaldari (talkcontribs)

In that case, I totally support what you're saying and I hope at some point we can address that. Having the community implement their own complicated (and potentially problematic) hacks to get around the limitations of our maps implementation is clearly not ideal.

Atsirlin (talkcontribs)

@JMatazzoni (WMF), thanks for the update! From user's perspective, it would be best to have some way of choosing the language and to avoid the hard link between the Wikipedia language and map language. Example: having the map of Paris in Russian is not terribly useful, as Latin characters are understandable for Russian speakers, and you won't find a single street name written in Russian in Paris. On the other hand, having the map of China in any non-Chinese language is essential. Ideally, I would think of a mapframe parameter that tells the software which language to use as the first choice (the rest could be done by the fall-back scheme you described). Then we could easily customize this to our needs.

JMatazzoni (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hi @Atsirlin. We're on the same page on the idea of a language override code. Thanks for reminding me to mention it. The plan is that maps will display in the language of the wiki, unless you specify. A "lang=xx" parameter will be part of the internationalization release that you'll be able to try it out next week on testwiki.

Pigsonthewing (talkcontribs)

Who do we lobby to get more funding allocated to maps/ a maps team?

DannyH (WMF) (talkcontribs)

@Pigsonthewing: You can lobby me if you want; I'm the Director of Product for the Contributors team, and one of the decision makers about Foundation priorities. We're not going to fund an ongoing Maps team after June 30th because we have other things to work on that we think are more important. The annual plan document for next year describes the big priorities for the Foundation's product team -- onboarding for new contributors, mobile contribution, communication tools, and helping contributors build content in diverse languages. These plans are based on the priorities set by the Wikimedia Movement Strategy process last year, particularly the focus on Knowledge Equity.

While Maps are useful and important, building further Maps features isn't going to be a focus for us. BUT -- the good news is that the Maps-minded contributors are really good at the Community Wishlist Survey. The five months of Maps work that the Collaboration team has done this year is the direct result of the community voicing support on the Wishlist Survey in December. So, while we're not planning to fund a full-time Maps team, you'll have another chance in November to propose another Maps feature, and vote it up to the top 10. The Community Tech team works on the top 10 ideas, so that's a way to get more Maps development next year.

Let me know if you have more questions, or if you want to talk about it more.

Reply to "Internationalization"
Mike Peel (talkcontribs)

Hi. Just a quick note to mention that the amount of maps being shown on Commons (as opposed to being linked to) is increasing at the moment as I roll out commons:Template:Wikidata Infobox, for example see: I'm hoping that doesn't cause any performance issues. It might be an interesting test case for multilingual maps (do they auto-change based on the language setting on commons?), and if by any chance you fancy working on improving the integration with Wikidata then that would be appreciated (at the moment we're using a lua/templateparser hack, and it is lacking features like auto-determining the zoom level to use)!

JMatazzoni (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hi @Mike Peel. I'm glad you asked about using mapframe in templates. I think this will be a really powerful use case for internationalized map. The answer to your question is that the maps will display in the content language of whatever wiki they are on. (Or they will attempt to, subject to availability of multilingual name data in OpenStreetMap for the language and location.)

You ask about the 'language setting on commons"; that would be the interface language preference, I assume. Since maps are content, they conform to the wiki's content setting, not the interface language preference. I hope that answers your question.

Mike Peel (talkcontribs)

Thanks! By the "language setting on commons", I meant the language selector that's at the top of the page (here also), to the left of the username. If you change that on Commons, then the infobox changes to show info in the chosen language - will the map do that as well?

JMatazzoni (WMF) (talkcontribs)

> If you change that on Commons, then the infobox changes to show info in the chosen language

Ahhh. I didn't know about that Commons-specific feature. I think the answer is that the map won't change on Commons in this way. Although the language selector changes the display in the way you have pointed out, the underlying content language of Commons remains English, and I'm told the map will respect that. (Also, I seem to have misunderstood the purpose of your infobox: I thought it was being stored on commons for use on articles (about telescopes) on different wikis. But I see now that this info box is meant to live on Commons.)

Mike Peel (talkcontribs)

OK. Out of curiosity, what would happen if we fed the lang parameter with the reader's language choice? That's possible with Lua. It might confuse the system/caching though?

Yes, the infobox is commons-specific, it's there to provide basic background info on all topics in all languages. It exclusively uses info from Wikidata. It would work easily enough on other wikis if anyone wants to do that, though.

Roan Kattouw (WMF) (talkcontribs)

I suspect there would be caching issues with that, but if you're interested you could try it out on testwiki and see what happens (or test it on Commons once internationalized maps have been rolled out there).

Abbe98 (talkcontribs)

On the client side caching shouldn't be an issue, because of the different query parameter values. Query parameters can even be used perfectly fine for cache busting...

On the backend I assume Cassandra cached tiles are separated as different Kartotherian sources, Vanish does caching based on the entire URL just as web browsers.

Roan Kattouw (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Yes, all those things will be fine. The caching issues I'm worried about are in MediaWiki's parser cache. That might not respond well to a mapframe tag with a dynamic lang attribute, and might try to reuse cached HTML that was generated for a different language.

Reply to "Maps usage on Commons"