Talk:Universal Language Selector/Compact Language Links

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This is the feedback page for the Compact Language Links feature.

See the Frequently Asked Questions.

All feedback is welcome. You can write in any language.

You don't have to do this, but it will be helpful if you mention the following things:

  • The browser and the operating system you are using, including version numbers.
  • The language of your operating system.
  • The country from which you are reading the site.

See also:

By clicking "Add topic", you agree to our Terms of Use and agree to irrevocably release your text under the CC BY-SA 3.0 License and GFDL
193.163.131.133 (talkcontribs)

Why is this feature turned off on the english-language wikipedia ? And the german and french language.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

Also Swedish and Dutch.

These are bigger projects with more users, so it requires a bit more planning, but it will definitely be enabled in the coming weeks. Announcements with dates will be published soon.

In the meantime, it can be enabled as a beta feature, and we'll be very happy to listen to the feedback.

Liuxinyu970226 (talkcontribs)

@Amire80: And how about Meta-Wiki? I even can't try it out?

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

It's not on Meta because Meta doesn't have different language versions in the same way that Wikipedia does.

Technically, the preferences doesn't appear anywhere at Meta, because $wgInterwikiMagic is set to false there. If I understand correctly, pre-Wikidata interlanguage links like [[fr:Accueil principal]] won't go to the sidebar without $wgInterwikiMagic. Meta can have Wikidata sitelinks, however, which is why the Meta Main page has interlanguage links, but where else does Meta have them?

I guess that Compact Language Links could be enabled on Meta if the use case on Meta is comparable to Wikipedia. (And on a more technical note, maybe $wgInterwikiMagic could be set to true now that we've had Wikidata for years, but that would be a separate discussion.)

Reply to "On english language wikipedia"
Nouill (talkcontribs)

Some peoples complains that wp:fr should offer on the default/short interwiki menu (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Le_Bistro/7_f%C3%A9vrier_2017#Langues_disponibles_sur_la_page_d.27accueil), like deutsch and spanish languages, instead of regional languages like picard. I relatively agree with that complain. I take deutsch and spanish for example, because there are predominant foreign languages that the general population learn on third language in school. 

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

@Amire80 told me to that a possible lead is to find data concerning the main languages spoken in France. That way, it would be possible to change the CLDR used by the CLL. But I've found nothing so far (INSEE, DGLFLF...). @Xenophôn, can you help?

Nouill (talkcontribs)

http://www.ined.fr/lili_efl2010/cahier_ined_156/ci_156_partie_8.30.pdf => "Institut national d'études démographiques" (Ined) studied that the main language (other that french) in Ile-de-France (12 millions habitants => Paris and around Paris) are in 1999 :

  • English (18 %, not 39 % and this is surely the more english-speaking region)
  • Arabic (5 %)
  • Spanish (5 %)
  • Portuguese (4 %)
  • Deutsch (~2 %)
  • Italian (~2 %)
  • Regional language (1 %) => (Ile-de-France don't have local/regional language)

http://www.ined.fr/fichier/s_rubrique/18724/pop_et_soc_francais_376.fr.pdf => show that the main language (other that french) in France which are transmitted to children in 1999 (so the regional language are surely more low now) are :

  • Arabic (500 k)
  • Alsatian (400 k)
  • Portuguese (350 k)
  • Oïl language (300 k)
  • Spanish (290k)
  • English (280 K)
  • Occitan language (250 k)
  • Italian (200k)
  • Deutsch (150k)

http://www.onisep.fr/Parents/Cartographie-des-principales-langues-vivantes-enseignees-au-college-a-la-rentree-2016 and http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/5177349/3-25092014-AP-FR.PDF/fce15e33-b870-4f68-9c06-0bb906186ec9?version=1.0 => Show that the 3 languages that are studied in school in France are English, Spanish and Deutsch.

http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_386_en.pdf (page 23 (on pdf) or 21 (on the document)) => show that the foreign language those are comprehended in France are :

  • English (39 %)
  • Spanish (13 %)
  • Deutsch (6 %)

http://languageknowledge.eu/countries/france (is reporting the previous source) indicate that main languages spoken in France are :

  • English (24%)
  • Spanish (9 %)
  • Deutsch (5 %)
  • Italian (3 %)
  • Arabic (2 %)
  • Portuguese (2 %)

http://www.culturecommunication.gouv.fr/content/download/93537/841041/version/4/file/lc_10_occitan_def.pdf (page 5) show that in Provence in the same survey in 1999, the people who speak those language with others peoples are (the text say that the values are underestimated) :

  • English 4,4 %
  • Italian 2,6 %
  • Spanish 2,4 %
  • Arabic 2,2 %
  • Occitan 2,2 %
Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Wow. Great job!

131.175.28.130 (talkcontribs)

This is explained in ULS/FAQ#language-territory. English, Spanish and German have already been fixed: http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/ticket/9680 . Perhaps ULS needs to be updated to the latest CLDR release.

The INED data is not directly usable since it's about education (we already discarded Euridyce data which is similar), while the figures for Italian, Arabic and Portuguese seem usable given that http://languageknowledge.eu/about claims to have the raw Eurostat data as source.

Nouill (talkcontribs)

The Ined data isn't about education. The two links (and other that doestn't found) resume a survey on 380 000 peoples => "l'enquête famille de l'Insee-Ined de 1999". That I think is one of the main references on the subject. The picture 5 of http://www.ined.fr/lili_efl2010/cahier_ined_156/ci_156_partie_8.30.pdf speak explicitely about spearker. http://www.ined.fr/fichier/s_rubrique/18724/pop_et_soc_francais_376.fr.pdf is about language transmission in familly, it is incomplet because it doesn't include language of immigrant, or language learn in school, but that show clearly that the CLDR is very incomplete.

More generally, I don't very happy with the CLDR, because I see that highlight regional language and english. And I have the feeling that modify that CLDR is very long. And I don't thing the french community (which can be heavily against the dev when they want) will wait 6 month or more, to have deutsch, spanish, arabic, etc, on default setting, and I think that they will rapidly ask to remove the feature if it does not be improve.

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

It is possible to rollback the change made to display a list of languages on the Main page, until we find the relevant data and fix it. @Amire80, what do you think?

Nouill (talkcontribs)

I created a ticket http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/ticket/10056, you can see similar ticket on http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/search?q=%22Add+language+to%22&noquickjump=1&changeset=on&milestone=on&ticket=on&wiki=on

Reply to "Most common languages of France"
Madglad (talkcontribs)

Please deactivate this unsolicited and misguided feature for dawiki.

The languages selected are not very relevant to Danish speakers. Several relevant languages are absent, and in their place are languages understood by only a miniscule fraction of Danish speakers.

Note that major changes to da.wiki are not to be implemented prior to achieving consensus on , or, if need be, a vote on the issue.

Rodejong (talkcontribs)

If it can't be deactivated, it would be nice to have the following relevant languages connected to danish:

  • DE German
  • EN English
  • FO Faeroe
  • FR French
  • KL Greenlandic
  • IS Icelandic
  • NL Dutch
  • NN Norwegian nynorsk
  • NO Norwegian bokmål
  • SV Swedish

Kind regards Rodejong

Pginer-WMF (talkcontribs)

Thanks for the feedback @Madglad and @Rodejong,

Multiple criteria is used to determine the likely languages for a user, and users can customise the languages shown at different levels. The easies way is just to navigate through the languages you are interested in, and those will be remembered for the next time. Users can also adjust their language settings in the browser or contribute to CLDR to have more accurate information about the languages in their region which is used as fallback information when direct information from the user is not available. Communities can also customize the order of the languages which is also taken into account in the language selection.

Note also that the languages shown are selected only from those in which the article is available, so they can differ from article to article. the lack of global settings, makes that the system does not learn about previous choices globally but on a per wiki basis, as a result it may take more time until your usual options are totally personalised.

Our observations suggest that the new links make it more easy to switch across languages, and the data we collected so far indicates that the cross-language navigation has increased for the projects where the compact language links are available. If this is not your case, we are definitely interested in knowing more details about your particular cases (which languages were shown for which article, which ones were expected, whether the results were better over time or not, etc.).

Thanks!

Reply to "Request for deactivation for dawiki"
Gamliel Fishkin (talkcontribs)

It is not a feature, it is a bug! It discriminates against many languages. These are languages with not many speakers (tens of languages in Russia, hundreds of languages in Africa, etc.), and also languages whose most speakers are not familiar with computers and Internet. For example, I know that the Saam language exists thank to links to Wikipedia in it. But the new bug will hide links to articles in "small" languages, and Wikipedia readers will think that those languages do not exist. So, please do not enable this bug and no more develop it!

DidiWeidmann (talkcontribs)

Dear Gamlie Fishkin I can strongly support what you say: The new policy is a big discrimination of small languages and is completely unacceptable it is against the principles of human rights and lacks of respect of small cultures! ~~~~

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

This feature will make these languages more prominent. Now languages of Russia, such as Tatar, Bashkir and Udmurt, will be shown prominently to people who connect from Russia. Earlier, you had to look for them in a list of more than 100 languages. Same for Saami—it will be shown prominently to people who connect from Norway or Finland.

DidiWeidmann (talkcontribs)

It gives the impression that this new feature is especially and expressly designed with the intention to discriminate several languages like Esperanto or Yiddish! There was now real need for such a system – I ask to restore the old System!

Eugrus (talkcontribs)

This is simply not true. The minor languages of Russia are not shown to me in the compact list on the Russian Wikipedia. What is being shown are just the wikis I use frequently. See w:ru:Земля, for instance, which has interwikis in a dozen of minor languages of Russia, but none are shown.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

@Eugrus, from which country are you connecting?

Which languages do you see? If you see languages that you use frequently, then it works as it is supposed to. Languages that you use frequently are probably the languages that you need the most. Languages of your country are shown if languages that you use frequently are not known, which will be true for all people the first time they see compact interlanguage links.

Gamliel Fishkin (talkcontribs)

So, human beings outside of Russia will think that the Tatar language does not exist, etc. It is just a discrimination. As a final result of such a discrimination, almost any human being in the world will think, that there in the world only two languages do exist: his or her native language and English.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

The user interface shows a list of languages that is customized for every user and helps people find information in their language. In articles with a lot of languages the list will have nine languages, and not two, and there will a button that says "X more languages", where X is the number.

Holder (talkcontribs)

For me this feature also looks like a discrimination of especially small languages. It does not help people to find information in their language, it helps people to find information just in big dominating languages!

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

Hi @Holder,

Thanks a lot for your comment.

As I explained above, this feature doesn't discriminate minor languages, but actually helps them by showing them more prominently to users that are most likely to know them.

I noticed on your user page that you are writing in the Alemannic Wikipedia. I checked the CLDR territory-language information table, and this language is supposed to be shown prominently to people who are connecting from France, Liechtenstein and Switzerland (search that table for "gsw"). At the moment, however, there is a particular bug for this language because of which it is not actually shown. I filed this as a task with high priority, and it will be fixed very soon. Once it's fixed, it will be shown prominently to everybody who is connecting from these countries.

Holder (talkcontribs)

@Amire80, that's indeed interesting news, thank you very much.

This long known problem is much more complicated: Alemannic language (and therefore also Alemannic Wikipedia) covers gsw, swg, wae and gct. That's why it hasn't been solved over the last ten years.

How will this be fixed in this case? It would be nice if als:wp would also be shown for readers in Germany where Alemannic is also be spoken by about five million people.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

Hi,

The data that we use can be found at http://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/29/supplemental/territory_language_information.html

I can see that swg is listed in Germany and wae is listed under Liechtenstein and Switzerland. gct is not listed anywhere, but you can ask to add it by clicking "add new" under the relevant country and supplying information about the number of speakers of this language in that country.

Technically, we can probably redirect all these codes to als, but I'll have to discuss it with the team. I added a comment at the bug report: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T139949

C933103 (talkcontribs)

It rely on CLDR and CLDR rely on some official figures, so if a country refuse to recognize a language is spoken in it then the data could be slewed. Different country also have different standard of what language being spoken there are common enough to be listed in it, for instance some languages spoken by only 0.x% population are listed for some countries while they are not in some other regions.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

From my experience, CLDR is fairly flexible with sources, and they listen to people who send reasonable bugs. If you have data that a language is spoken by a certain number of people, I encourage you to submit a bug there.

C933103 (talkcontribs)

And so we need people with enough knowledge in individual country's situation and are willing to put effort into searching for non biased info about language usage situation and also understanding that some languages that are traditionally not considered as language otself is actually a language, and the person must also be neutral enough in term of the matter to avoid intentional overlooking some languages and must also be willing to spend time to report the problem to CLDR.

Gamliel Fishkin (talkcontribs)

Firstly, some human beings speaking the Alemannic language can live outside of the countries where most its speakers live. Secondly, as a result of this universal language selector, human beings outside of these countries will not know that the Alemannic language exists.

It was in some of the first years of the twentieth century in the Russian Empire. Some day, one little Russian girl seen a nameplate in Yiddish or Hebrew on the door of some Jewish family. She was not Jewish, just Russian, but these letters interested her, she learned much and became a Soviet semitologist. Similarly, someone can be interested in a language of another nation thanks to seeing language's name in the interwikis; but that universal language selector destroys such a chance.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

@Gamliel Fishkin, I understand, but there is also another possibility: That somebody who lives in Russia and thinks that there is no Wikipedia in the Tatar language, will find out that there is one. Compact Language Links make this more likely.

C933103 (talkcontribs)

@Amire80 When most major languages are displayed outside the panel, the need to find interlanguage link from the panel would be minimized. This reduce the chance for user to discover discover what they might want, if they don't know such a Wikipedia exist before. Even in a huge list, users would have a higher chance to discover their familiar small language than such a large list because users would be more familiar with language names written in their native script and native language, but if they never click into the panel then the chance for them to discover their language Wikipedia become 0

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

The languages are tailored for each user, and they are not necessarily major. A minor language of the user's country will be preferred to a major language spoken outside of the user's country.

C933103 (talkcontribs)

In countries like Russia, India or China, there are far more than 10 languages spoken in those countries and inevitably native language of some users can only be found in the expanded panel.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

This is indeed an issue: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T133029

There's no easy solution for it, but we'll definitely get there.

Gamliel Fishkin (talkcontribs)

The only solution for such an issue is to turn this "feature" off and forget it.

C933103 (talkcontribs)

Even if you enable subregion-based filtering, there are always regions like Moscow or Shanghai where every community in the country would have people going to there for economic reason and result in more than 10 languages spoken in the same subregion.

Jørgen (talkcontribs)

I can see great possibilities in this feature - if it is changed a little bit. It is impossible to get all people satisfied with a uniform solution. Let the user decide! Have a list in 'preferences' where you can tick all the languages you want shown, and a button below to show the full list. As a dane, I see english, spanish and german, but need french, swedish and norwegian too. I have arabic, urdu, chinese and hindi. These languages are probably spoken by some immigrated inhabitants of my country, but useless to the vast majority. Føroysk and kalaalisut are languages from the north atlantic former possesions. I have no idea what to do with them, most danes cannot understand them, let alone write these languages.

Holder (talkcontribs)

@Jørgen, the problem is that there has to be a decision what is shown to readers.

Jørgen (talkcontribs)

yes, let the readers decide themselves by ticking a list. And for Ip-readers, let the list be default 'all' as it used to be.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

You can pre-select the languages according to instructions at Universal Language Selector/Compact Language Links.

Also, every language that you select simply by clicking is remembered, so this feature adapts itself to every user (including anonymous readers).

Madglad (talkcontribs)

Agree with Jørgen. The list is unusable, because it shows "big languages", of which many, nobody in a far away region understand (like Indonesian languages in Denmark, on the other side of the planet). It does not show the languages in the neighbourghing countries, that most people understand. Note also, that most users are not registered and cannot change their settings.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

Hi @Madglad,

Are you connecting from Denmark? May I ask on which article do you see Indonesian?

Madglad (talkcontribs)

I saw Indonesian on several articles as far as I remember. Logged in from Denmark, and visiting da-wiki. But the languages are changing, depending on how I search around. But on another clean browser (tor) and logged out, I see

(still visiting da-wiki). This list of languages is not a good starting default value for Danish language speakers. It should be assumed that most people visiting da-wiki also know the other neighbourghing languages, and that almost no Danish speakers understand Indonesian and Indian languages. The algorithm shouldn't try to guess known languages, but should pick them from a list when visiting a language-specifik Wikipedia. Connecting to da-wiki from Australia, it should be considered more likely that the user understands Norwegian, than some aboriginal language. I don't understand why things like these are rolled out without previous discussion i the wikipedias.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

In a usual working scenario, your previously selected languages are supposed to be remembered. If you are using Tor or other anonymizers or proxies, the system cannot know anything about you, so it is showing the biggest global languages, and Indonesian happens to be one of them. If you are using a private browser window, you also won't see any of your previous selections

You can configure your own preferred languages in the browser according to the instructions in Universal Language Selector/Compact Language Links.

Configuring preferred languages per specific project, as you suggest, will be possible very soon. See https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T138973 .

Madglad (talkcontribs)

What is "a usual working scenario"?

I guess a typical scenario is a not logged in user, visiting one of the versions of Wikpedia, possibly not English. The IP is placed somewhere on the planet in region where the Indonesian languages etc. are not known, but the languages in the region are.

Quote: "Configuring preferred languages per specific project ... will be possible" - this gives me the impression, that this change is designed for en-wiki, and is not ready for implementation in the other wikipedias yet. Roll it out when it is developed and tested. Roll back for now.

Höyhens (talkcontribs)

Yes. This is a change that should not to be done.

Gamliel Fishkin (talkcontribs)

There is one more topic. I see no problem if the system uses IP-address and other current information about an unregistered visitor. But if the system not only uses current information, but also remembers pages visited by this human being, it is a privacy gap.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

No, the Compact Language Links feature doesn't remember this information.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

If a user visits the Danish language Wikipedia from a Danish IP address it will be reasonable to assume that interesting language versions to the person would be:

*sv=Swedish (neighbour country, mutually intelligible with Danish)

*no=Norwegian Bokmål (neighbour country, mutually intelligible with Danish)

*nn=Norwegian Nynorsk (neighbour country, mutually intelligible with Danish)

*de=German (minority language in part of Denmark, neighbour country, language taught in in Danish schools)

*en=English (language taught in in Danish schools)

Languages spoken in overseas countries of The Danish Realm:

*fo=Faroese

*kl=Kalaallisut

Languages taught in some schools:

*fr=French

*es=Spanish

Now, this example focused on Danish (and Denmark proper) can probably be generalised to most languages; languages, which have no contact with Indian, Indonesian, Chinese languages, but have contact with a lot of neighbour languages.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

If the IP is identified as Denmark, then German, Faroese and Kalaallisut are supposed to be shown in the initial list (if, of course, a corresponding article in these languages is available).

Your IP probably wasn't identified as Denmark, which is quite possible if you used something like Tor, so the world's largest languages were shown.

If you don't see a language that interests you in the initial list, you can click "X more" and select the language that you need, and the next time it will be shown in the short list.

I know that Danish is similar to Norwegian and Swedish, but do you have data about the number of people in Denmark who are actually reading in these languages?

C933103 (talkcontribs)
  1. IIRC wikipedia have its data about percentage of visit per language version per country? It should be possible to use the data in reverse to find out percentage of visit on specific language version in a specific country or subregion.
  2. You can also check the mediawiki language fallback tree?
Madglad (talkcontribs)

Many times more read Swedish and Norwegian, than distant languages like Chinese. Especially if the article is better than the Danish one. Exact numbers unknown, but almost nobody in Denmark is able to read Chinese, almost everybody is able to read Swedish.

But I think Danish/Denmark is just an example, the problem is general for language-wikipedias. The solution is usable for en-wiki, not for the Wikipedias of other languages, and should not be implemented in these, in the current form.

Höyhens (talkcontribs)

I must admit to be extremely worried and sad for this attack against Wikipedia as a free dictionary. Cancel it as soon as possible, please.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

I now see that part of the problem is the guess is made based on the number of native speakers in a country, not the number of readers, which is a very big mistake.

An important issue is the assumption is that everybody is logged in, and has set up their browser languages etc. Setting up browser languages manually is what nerds were doing in the Netscape times. We are writing 2016. And most users btw. are not registered Wikipedia accounts.

And finally, assumption should be made on basis of the language the Wikipedia is running, the IP solution is developed for en-wiki.

This experiment should be rolled back on all language wikipedias exept en-wiki, until an acceptable algorithm is found.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

The guess is not based on the number of native speakers. We use the data from CLDR, which clearly doesn't refer only to native speakers—for example, the entry for Denmark puts English at 86%, which is obviously not the number of native English speakers in Denmark, but probably the number who know it in one way or another. If you can cite data about the number of people in Denmark who can read Swedish or any other language, you should add it there by clicking "add new" in the table.

Also, the software really doesn't assume that everybody is logged in. Obviously, the vast majority of readers are not registered. The languages that they click in the the "more" panel are automatically added to their preferred languages, and the research that we conducted showed that it works for casual readers.

As the FAQ says, the languages defined in the browser and the languages identified by geolocation are secondary to what users actually click. Once you click Swedish for example, you will see it in the compact list.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

Technical question: How are »The languages that they click in the the "more" panel« added? Cookie? IP-address? Or?

Nikerabbit (talkcontribs)

Using LocalStorage.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

Our research shows that Swedish (and any other language) is less accessible when it is part of a long list than it is through the panel that opens when you click the "more" button.

The Nynorsk Wikipedia defined other Scandinavian languages as preferred in , so they would appear at the top of the long list. The same can be done in the Danish Wikipedia, and Compact Language Links will pick it up (not yet today, but soon).

C933103 (talkcontribs)

The CLDR list only cover how many people speak the language not how many people understand the language. For instance in Iceland it say 100% for Icelandic but only 0.7% for Danish and none for other Scandinavian languages. Hindi-Urdu and Malaysian-Indonesian are same language with different vocabulary under different name, but it does not have data for Hindi in Pakistan or data for Indonesian in Malay, and the data for Urdu in India or data for Malay in Indonesia is only ~10% the data for Hindi/Indonesian in respective country. Almost all country in the world have a number of people that hace at least a certain understanding in English but you can see how many regions in the list have English listed. And the list doesn't even have Libyan Arabic in Libya or Taiwanese(Min-nan) in Taiwan. There are also Iran and Iraq which have only listed Central and/or Southern Kurdish but not Kurdish in general.

And did your test ask users the accessibility to a specific language edition with the specific language's name given, or when the user don't know what they are lookibg for which is the most cases?

Madglad (talkcontribs)

In Iceland they learn Danish in school, so they are able to read Danish as well as their native Icelandic. (The languages are not mutually intelligible). In many countries especially in Europe it's most common to speak more than one language.

C933103 (talkcontribs)

ah I see, the example might be not that good.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

The CLDR list is not perfect and it can be improved. It has direct and visible to add languages and report bugs.

Without Compact Language Links there is nothing that helps a user who is reading the Indonesian Wikipedia to find a link to the Malay language, because it is lost in the long list. With Compact Language Links, it is easier to find, because there is a search box to find the language, and after the user clicks it once, it will remembered.

As for the other question—it's a good question; I'll find it and I'll get back to you.

C933103 (talkcontribs)

Have you get any answers?

DidiWeidmann (talkcontribs)

That now not all language links are shown on Wikipedia, is a discrimination of the small languages and nothing else. There was now real need for such a change! All your arguments are very constructed an artificial and only serve to hide a political decision which sole goal is the discrimination of the small language communities: There was absolutely no reason to change the policy of language links: In an alphabetic list of languages there was never a problem to find the right ling even in a list of 200 and more languages! So I can only protest against this arbitral decision an ask to go back to the old System!

C933103 (talkcontribs)
  1. How about adding a link to CLDR in CLL panel so that people can tell CLDR what languages are missing in their region?
  2. CLDR can be improved but the process seems long. Like I submitted some additional languages being used in Hong Kong back in last year and that already get accepted, but those info are still not available in CLDR v.30 beta which is supposed to be the last CLDR to release in this year according to the release cycle which mean the process of fixing something via CLDR's issue tracker take >1 year.
  3. Even if CLDR data get improved, that still does not resolve the problem that its scope is "population that is able to read and write each language, and is comfortable enough to use it with computers.", instead of "able to understand and retrieve info from the page" which would be a lower standard. For instance, most Chinese users can't write in Japanese but they can read out basic info from Japanese Wikipedia because of the common use of Chinese characters. It will certainly not reflected onto CLDR.
Amire80 (talkcontribs)

Thanks for submitting fixes for CLDR!

People who can read Japanese (or any other language) will find the language in the panel, and after they click it, they will always see it.

C933103 (talkcontribs)
  1. but I'm talking about people in general who don't know what they're looking for instead of finding specific language.
  2. After click it then always see it is also problematic because sometime I only want to use the language once and then when those one time clicks accumulate, they would repell those frequent language out of the short list
Lingveno (talkcontribs)

Thanks for discriminating languages without an exact location, such as Esperanto and Yiddish.

Frenezulo (talkcontribs)

I'm going to restate some things that were posted above, because they don't seem to have penetrated. In New York City, Wolof, Tajik, Newari, Marathi, Hausa, Guarani, Azerbaijani, and Aymara are all spoken and read, but they will not be likely to appear on any location-based list of languages, because not enough people there speak and read them, and New York is a long way from the places where they originated. Users of these languages won't always think to click a "more languages" link, because they may not realize what the link is supposed to do, and they won't know their language is represented if they don't click to see. The natural assumption, given that some of these languages don't have much internet content to begin with, will be that they aren't there. Allowing users to customize which languages they see only helps if they know which languages they have to choose from.

Reply to "Language discrimination"
85.64.172.205 (talkcontribs)

It makes it more difficult to compare the names of entries in different languages - instead of just putting the cursor over the languages for comparison.

Pginer-WMF (talkcontribs)

The tool was mainly focused on facilitating the navigation across the set of languages users speak.

The listing of language links in Wikidata may be a good place for viewing the name of a topic in all languages.

Having more details on the specific usecase, would be helpful to understand how to better support it. Are you interested in looking the name of the article on a given language (to get the translation)? Comparing the lengths of the titles in different languages? Verifying they meet some rules?

thanks

CIRKIN (talkcontribs)

yardımcı yokmu amk

Mr.Slade (talkcontribs)

This is a very BAD idea. I want to see ALL the languages for which a version of the article exists. If some issue pops up involving, say, Thailand, I want to see the Thai language version of it, even if I do not know Thai and have never clicked on it before. I may want to see a translation of the Thai article (per Google translate), just to see what they are saying.

Reply to "Comparison"

How are languages relevant to me determined?

2
HalfOfAKebab (talkcontribs)

I'm guessing it's something like showing me languages spoken in the country my IP says I'm from, but I'm not entirely sure.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

This is one of the things. See the FAQ for a full explanation.

Reply to "How are languages relevant to me determined?"
Walter Klosse (talkcontribs)

Its sometimes doing this https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chyba_u_kompaktn%C3%ADch_jazyk%C5%AF.png

Yeryry (talkcontribs)

I'm getting this too, on en.wiktionary. Noticed it yesterday. Seems intermittent, most of the time it'll be "broken", but if I keep reloading, sometimes it displays correctly.

Race condition maybe, with load order/timing making a difference?

I haven't managed to have it "break" when using debug=true.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

Hi,

This is a known bug. It will be fixed on the live Wikimedia sites later today. Thanks for the report and sorry about the inconvenience.

Reply to "Plural:38"
Abiyoyo (talkcontribs)

For a long time Wikipedia was great because the community decided what content to show on a web-site. Not that "smart" google/facebookk-style algorythms that decide what a user wil see, but people, devoted to NPOV, full and free data. Now we are shifting towards digital slavery, spying for my geolocation and suggesting me something i do not want. Not the full & NPOV-content, but something prejudged.

SSneg (talkcontribs)

The notion that "before Google, The Internet was fair" is wrong. Whenever humans are confronted with a mass of information too large to process at a glance, they devise concepts and algorithms to tame that mass and make it human-processable. These algorithms are designed by humans to specifically distort "the original information" and carry a bit of subjectivity to them. The aim of Wikipedia cannot be "lets just dump all the information at a reader (like 200-language list)" but "lets present the most relevant information using algorithms that are WELL-INTENDED (as opposed e.g. to profit-optimized algorithms of Facebook)".

Pginer-WMF (talkcontribs)

@Abiyoyo, your comment seems to imply that Compact Language links is only driven algorithmically without user or community intervention. However, human intervention is given priority in the languages shown more prominently to the user:

  • Individual users can decide their preferred languages by selecting them. That is, a user navigating between Hindi and Punjabi, will have those two languages available in the short list. Previous choices is the criteria with a highest priority (since it is based on actual decisions by the user), it will not be overridden by other guesses.
  • Browser accept languages are also considered. The user can configure those through the browser settings.
  • Communities can define their list of closely related languages that will be taken into account to surface those, when there are no previous selections.
  • Finally, other criteria such as location-related guesses are based on CLDR, an information repository open for contribution.

More details here.

Abiyoyo (talkcontribs)

Thank you, Pginer-WMF, Now i think my comment was a kind of overreacting and too harsh. Sorry for that. The future possibility to change the default interwiki lists for communities (T138973) is a kind of a solution. The other reason behind my comment was also the invisibility of "show other languages" button, which was broken due to css conflict in ru-wiki. The first impression was that other interwiki links were hidden completely. Now it is obvious that it was problem on local ru-wiki side.

Sigehelmus (talkcontribs)

I agree with OP, this option merely shuts off users from learning other/obscure languages.

Reply to "Another Google Inc.?"

Wikipedia as seen from Norwegian ip-adresses

2
Dyveldi (talkcontribs)

Wikipedia as seen from Norwegian ip-adresses

There is a lot we do not know about Wikipedia editors and readers. One thing we do know is that one of the larger user groups is students. So what does Wikipedia offer students and academics working from Norwegian ip-adresses?

I have quite unofficially done a small piece of original research. I have visited two of the largest educational institutions in Norway logged on and taken a good look at the selection of languages offered to Norwegian students and academics. I visited Norways biggest and oldest university (UiO se article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Oslo). It has around 27 000 studentes and 6000 employees. I also visited Høgskolen i Oslo og Akershus (HiOA, see article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_and_Akershus_University_College ) with more than 17 000 studentes and 1 700 employees.

In addition I visited Norways main library (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Library_of_Norway ) and supplemented my findings from one of their PCs.

I looked at the Main page, first from Norwegian bokmål, clicked on to Norwegian nyorsk and went on to Danish. All of which have turned DLL on. I logged which languages Wikipedia has to offer for a Norwegian student or academic reading from any of these institutions.

After looking at the Main page I looked at Tinget (English counterpart Wikipedia:Village pump), bokmål and nynorsk and Danish. Went on to « Edvard Munch », looked at the same three languages and on to  « Norge » (Norway),  « Zanzibar» and last but not least looked at « Botswana ».

The selection at UiO and HiOA was identical. Interestingly the selection as viewed from our national library was slightly different. It was also somewhat astonishing that the main page existed in eighter 22, or 33 or 292 languages depending on which wikipedia I visited.

MAINPAGE - Norwegian bokmål

Offers me the following language list

·     Norsk nynorsk

·     Deutsch

·     English

·     Espanol

·     Francais

·     Portugues

·     ru

·     samegiella

·     zh

·     + 13 more

MAINPAGE - Norwegian nynorsk

Offers me the following language list

·     Norsk bokmål

·     Svenska

·     Dansk

·     English

·     Samegiella

·     ar

·     ur

·     hi

·     zh

·     + 24 more

MAINPAGE - Danish

·     ar

·     Cebuano

·     English

·     hi

·     ja

·     Norsk nynorsk

·     Samegiella

·     Winaray

·     zh

·     +283 mer

Working from The National Library of Norway I get a slightly different choice: I lose hi. but gain norsk bokmål.

****************

TINGET- bokmål

·     ar

·     English

·     Espanol

·     hi.

·     Norsk nynorsk

·     ru

·     Samegiella

·     ur

·     zh

·     + 201 flere

TINGET- nynorsk

·     Norsk bokmål

·     svenska

·     Dansk

·     English

·     Espanol

·     .hi

·     samegiella

·     .ur

·     .zh

·     + 206 til

TINGET- dansk

·     .ar

·     English

·     Espanol

·     .hi

·     norsk nynors

·     ru

·     samegiella

·     .ur

·     .zh

·     + 201 mer

Working from The National Library of Norway I get a slightly different choice: Russian is replaced with Norsk bokmål.

**************

EDVARD MUNCH - bokmål

·     .ar

·     English

·     Espanol

·     .hi

·     bahasa ingonesia

·     norsk nynorsk

·     ru

·     samegiella

·     .zh

·     +74 flere

EDVARD MUNCH - nynorsk

·     Norsk bokmål

·     svenska

·     dansk

·     .ar

·     English

·     Espanol

·     .hi

·     samegiella

·     .zh

·     +74 mer

EDVARD MUNCH fra dansk

·     .ar

·     English

·     Espanol

·     .hi

·     bahasa Indonesia

·     norsk nynorsk

·     russisk

·     samegiella

·     .zh

·     +74 mer

Working from The National Library of Norway I get a slightly different choice as Bahasa Indonesia is replaced with norsk bokmål.

************

NORGE  - bokmål

·     afrikaans

·     .AR

·     dansk

·     føroyskt

·     hrvatski

·     norsk nynorsk

·     samegiella

·     Suomi

·     svenska

·     +248 flere

Working from The National Library of Norway I get a slightly different choice as hrvatski is replacedwith english.

NORGE  -nynorsk

·     norsk bokmål

·     svenska

·     dansk

·     afrikaans

·     .ar

·     føroyskt

·     hrvatski

·     samegiella

·     Suomi 

·     +248 til

Working from The National Library of Norway I get a slightly different choice as Suomi (Finnish) is replaced with English

NORGE  - dansk

·     Afrikaans

·     .ar

·     Suomi

·     føroyskt

·     hrvatski

·     norsk nynorsk

·     norsk bokmål

·     samegeilla

·     svenska 

·     +248 mer

Working from The National Library of Norway I get a slightly different choice as Swedish is replaced with English.

**********

ZANZIBAR bokmål

·     .ar

·     English

·     Espanol

·     .hi

·     bahasa Indonesia

·     norsk nynorsk

·     ru

·     .ur

·     .zh

·     +76 flere

ZANZIBAR nynorsk

·     norsk bokmål

·     svenska

·     dansk

·     .ar

·     English

·     Espanol

·     .hi

·     .ur

·     .zh

·     +76 til

ZANZIBAR dansk

·     .ar

·     English

·     Espanol

·     .hi

·     bahasa Indonesia

·     norsk nynorsk

·     ru

·     .ur

·     .zh

·     +76 mer

Working from The National Library of Norway I get a slightly different choice as Bahasa Indonesia is replaced with Norwegian bokmål.

**************

BOTSWANA bokmål

·     Dansk

·     .mk

·     norsk nynorsk

·     ru

·     samegiella

·     setswana

·     Suomi

·     svenska

·     .zh

·     +201 flere

Working from The National Library of Norway I get a slightly different choice as Chinese is replaced with English.

BOTSWANA nynorsk

·     norsk bokmål

·     svenska

·     dansk

·     .mk

·     ru

·     samegiella

·     setswana

·     Suomi

·     .zh

·     +201 til

Working from The National Library of Norway I get a slightly different choice as Chinese is replaced with English

BOTSWANA dansk

·     English

·     Suomi

·     mk

·     norsk nynorsk

·     ru

·     samegiella

·     svenska

·     setswana

·     zh.

·     +201 mere

Working from The National Library of Norway I get a slightly different choice as Chinese is repalaced with Norwegian bokmål.

My question is how on Earth has DLL figured out that this should be the prefered language lists for Norwegian students and Academics? Why is this considered a useful list working from Norway?

Dyveldi (talkcontribs)

And if anybody wonders what DLLs choice of languages for Dyveldi is it was arabisk, english, espanol, hindi, norsk nynorsk, samegiella, svenska, urdu og kinesisk on July 19th and so it still is today. It is most certainly not representative of the languages I have visited or have the remotest connection with which languages I am interested in, read or write. Regards, although not so very respectfully, Dyveldi

Reply to "Wikipedia as seen from Norwegian ip-adresses"

WP for Norwegian bokmål has voted against

1
Dyveldi (talkcontribs)

Answer to the vote on Norwegian bokmål was the users being against this change and we want it rolled back. We want the "old" alphabetical language list for all users that are not logged on. We want the personal preferences of all registered users changed back to turned off. Everybody who want this option should be free to turn it on and everybody else should not be forced to turn it off.

The complete discussion and the vote as it was of 23. August 2016 in Norwegian can be found here: https://no.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Tinget&oldid=16610928

Summary of the vote in English:

-- This change was introduced without anyone asking what the editors on Wikipedia in Norwegian bokmål wanted. The change resulted in all users on Norwegian bokmål had their preferences changed and if anyone reads Wikipedia in Norwegian bokmål not-logged-in they were shown a changed and reduced visible liste of languages.

-- The change was implemented while most of Norway had their summer holidays. The discussion has been in the most common holiday period and the week after and this would normally result in a not very high participation in votes and discussions.

-- The discussion has become long and complex with a lot of sub themes which also often results in fewer and fewer active participants. The discussion contains a lot of text, when a reader turns his og her attention to the discussion it is not always clear what is new since the reader last read the discussion and in addition it can be unclear what the purpose with some of the sub themes. Some independent discussions have also been posted in week 29 and 20. All this influences the amount of participators and their participation.

-- There is also a separate discussion on this page belonging to the project.

-- 28 registered users have participated in the discussion and in addition some unregistered users (ip-adresses). 14 users chose to use the option to voice their opinion in form of a vote.

-- 13 users voted for the DLL change to be rolled back (1 user was strictly speaking half an hour late and I am uncertain if this has to do with a local time or if the user really was late). 1 user has voted to keep the change. Looking at the remaining participants who did not vote does not change the fact that a majority is against the change. Of the remaining 15 who have written about their opinion in the discussion 7 have as far as I can see been very critical or clearly said that they wanted it turned off, 4 have been positive and 4 have been critical albeit not as clearly as the previously mentioned 7. No ip-adresses have voted but 8 different ip-s have been very negative to this change. It is not possible to ascertain how many persons these ip-s represent.

-- Jeblad has chosen not to use the possibility to vote. He has contributed with over 30% of the posts in the discussion and is interpreted as positive to keep this change. Jeblad has also posted 5 Phabricator-discussions. This is a lot of contributions and a very high activity, but he is counted as one user conclusively positive to the change.

-- The discussion has also led to several users finding out how to change their personal preferences, but how many who have turned this off is not known. Some users have made an active choose and kept it. This is however not possible to turn off for users reading not-logged-in.

-- Altogether 20 of the 28 participants in the discussion do not want this change. 4 users are critical of the system. 4 of the 28 participants are positive.

-- This is a solid majority whichever way this discussion and/or vote is summarized. I can't but conclude that the majority is lage enough to warrant the change being rolled back to the way it was. Users who want it can turn it on of their own volition, not-logged-in users get the complete alphabetical list back.

-- Please listen to our wish and roll the change bak to being voluntary to turn on. Regards from user Dyveldi.

Reply to "WP for Norwegian bokmål has voted against"