Talk:Universal Language Selector/Compact Language Links

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The choice of languages should consider the length of the articles

2
J.Ammon (talkcontribs)

Some articles, especially about geographical topics, will have longer and more detailed articles in their local language. These languages should be presented in the first choice list. (See my other post, I posted this idea about the length of the article again, to allow for a separation of the discussions about locality vs. length of the articles.)

Another metric for an interesting language version on a topic might be the number of edits for the article.

DTankersley (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hi,

I just responded on your other thread, but I'm not sure that the overall length of an article is a priority to check before showing if a particular language is available to read in.

But, that being said, we've thought of that and how many edits an article has had as another basis for search results. However, I'm not sure we'll be able to test those theories any time soon, even though they're quite interesting to think about.

Thanks!

Reply to "The choice of languages should consider the length of the articles"

The local language of the topic of the article should be part of the choice

2
J.Ammon (talkcontribs)

While researching about Pedro II, Piauí, a little city in Brasil with a rather terse description in the english wikipedia, I wanted to read the portuguese version, but there was no link in the languages section. Only after opening the "more languages box" I finally found the link to to portuguese wikipedia.

So I suggest to add the language that is local to the topic of the article to the first choice of languages. I don't know anything about the technical background, so it might be not so easy. Maybe one could use the geographic coordinates for this.

Maybe it is easier to consider the length of the article in the different languages. The longer the article, the more it will be of interest also for foreign-language readers.

DTankersley (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hi!

We're actually working on doing just that—as we've been doing a series of tests on the search results page that will show what languages the article can be read in. These languages are based on the region that you're in and any specific browser language settings you might have.

You can read more on our tests on Phabricator: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T149809 and you can learn how to add a simple link to your logged in profile here: Cross-wiki Search Result Improvements/self-guided testing#Explore similar.

We're testing these improvements only on the search results page at the moment, but if all goes well and feedback and test result data is good, we hope to release it into production on all wikipedias.

Thanks!

Reply to "The local language of the topic of the article should be part of the choice"
Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

This new idea is strange. Links to lots of languages are hidden away, instead of being shown in the list where they are easily found.

If someone like this idea, let them have it as an option. For all others, including people who are not logged in, the default should be the real, full list of languages for every article, so you can find them. ~~~~

~~~~

83.134.162.97 (talkcontribs)

I support your remarks for 100%, but is there still hope for a multilingual list as a default choice ?

DigitalHamster (talkcontribs)

Yes, I completely agree. For instance, if you want to see how many languages a page is in, or you want to translate a page and are seeing if it already exists, this setting would make it difficult to check.

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talkcontribs)

I think it's the other way around. Compact Language Links gives you a short list of languages that are most likely to interest you, plus an actual, numeric count of the others. For example, https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergen lists nine languages for me and tells me that there are 86 more. I can quickly determine that 9+86=95 (plus the page that I'm on). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergen (where I have CLL turned off) gives me a long list with no count. With CLL, I can tell you that 96 Wikipedias have an article on that subject. Without CLL, I will tell you that the answer is "lots".

If you are translating a page, you've probably been reading in that language, so CLL will put the target language in the short list (not somewhere in the long list of 95 other languages).

Even if it's not in the short list, with CLL, you can search for that language by name and ISO language code just by clicking the button that says "85 more". For example, if you want to know whether that article exists in Finnish, you can find it by searching for fi (language code), Suomi (Finnish name) Finnish (English), ffinneg (Welsh), fiński (Polish), or many other languages.

Without CLL, you have to know that the Finnish word for that language is "Suomi", and you have to scan through about 85% of the long list until you find that word (because the fi language code is alphabetized in the S's). This does not sound like an improvement to me.

DigitalHamster (talkcontribs)

Actually, thinking back on what has been said and seeing other comments, if this list was expandable (just by clicking the "x others" button that is actually a very nice feature

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talkcontribs)

If you haven't used it for a while, then I encourage you to try it out for a few days. There's nothing more effective for discovering its strengths and weaknesses than trying to live with it.

As I said, I've got it turned off at the English Wikipedia, and that's not an accident. I need to do things like open every language's equivalent of the Village Pump (technical) in tabs more often than I need to find articles in languages that I can actually read. It's good for finding languages that I visit often; it's not so great for opening 62 tabs. (Also: Oh, how I miss Linky.)

For power users like us, whether CLL is more efficient or less efficient is a pretty personal thing, based on the kind of work that you personally do. You'll know whether it fits your personal work patterns after interacting with it a few days.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

I really miss an understanding that "power users like us" and registered, experienced user is a very small minority. Wikipedia is an open encyclopedia for everybody, and should work also for ip users in the whole world. CLL should be rolled back, until acceptable algorithms are devoloped. The algoritms take into consideration dialect continua and neighbouring countries. The current algorithm seems to have absolutely no understanding of this.

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talkcontribs)

The current algorithm is based on an internationally recognized database (whose name escapes me at the moment). I believe that the Language team would be perfectly happy to see that database updated to recognize that several Scandinavian languages are divided more by politics and history than by actual linguistic elements. If you've got the data that says, for example, that most Norwegians and Swedes and Danes can read each other's "separate" languages, then I'll find someone who can help you figure out how to propose a correction to the database.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

It seems that the purpose of the mentioned database is not the cover mutually intelligible, but to cover official languages. Mutual intelligibility is not only restricted to Scandinavian languages, see .

Mutual intelligibility is not the only issue. Schools tend to educate also in other important languages in the region, eg. many schools in western Europe teaches German and French etc.

Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

Whatamidoing, I am never only interested in just a couple of languages which "most interest" me. I am interested in all languages and in how many languages there are where a subject has an article.

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talkcontribs)

I understand that you are interested in all the languages. Do you think that you are a perfectly typical reader?

Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

The typical reader will be interested in different languages for different articles. If you read about a subject endemic to another country, you would probably be interested in seeing the article in that country's language, whether you know the language or not, because it will probably have more images, maps, tables etc. You will not be interested in exactly the same foreign languages in every article you read.

Leofil2 (talkcontribs)

Hem... So Wikipedia does have the answer to what a perfectly typical reader is?

Why doesn't it offer, at least, the option of a list of all available languages? That would be user-friendly for everybody. A list, nothing more, accessible with one click. You choose the pre-digested "my small world as designed by W" selection, or you choose the list. Instead we have a multi-click procedure which allows us to look for nothing but what we already know.

I don't want a Facebook-like Wikipedia that shows me what its algorithm thinks I was made to see. This is the opposite of encyclopedic spirit.

Serendipity, guys, for goodness' sake. Your ULS kills it.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

It is common here in Europe that you learn several languages besides your native language. In Denmark eg often English, German and French. Being native Danish, means that you will also understand Norwegian Bokmål, Norwegian Nynorsk and Swedish. That totals to 6 languages besides Danish. That is perfectly typical.

And: Faroese and Kalaallisut (Greenlandic) have some status as minority languages in Denmark and is relevant to be shown always in dawiki, even though the languages are only understood by a minority of Danish speakers.

People having learned French will possibly also be able to understand some Spanish, possibly also Italian and Portuguese.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

Faroese and Kalaallisut are supposed to be shown by default. Is there an article that has a corresponding article in Faroese or Kalaallisut, and which doesn't show links to them?

Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

They are not shown by default in articles in Swedish, but I'd like to see them when reading about things to do with the Faroe Islands or Greenland. Why do you want to stop me from finding them easily in the extensive language list in the left margin? They do not bother anyone there.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

I guess not. It which just supplementary comment when counting languages. But of course not relevant to which languages, a random Danish person will understand.

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talkcontribs)

I freely grant that some people speak multiple languages. However:

  1. The ability to read and write a given language doesn't make you interested in reading that language's Wikipedia. (See, e.g., the many editors who speak a non-English language natively, but exclusively edit the English Wikipedia.)
  2. The fact that some people can do this does not mean that typical people can do this. IMO it makes more sense for the default to work for the typical reader, rather than the unusually accomplished linguist.
Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

How can you be so sure about what the 'typical' person is interested in?

  1. It is not the ability to read and write the language which makes you want to seek out information in that langauge's version of Wikipedia. It is the interest for information. The interest which took you to an encyclopedia in the first place.
  2. Typical people will likely want to find information from any language where something is written on the subject, whether they know the language or not.
Madglad (talkcontribs)

As explained above Danish people will very often understand 7 languages, possibly more, some will understand only 5 or 6, or in rare cases fewer. And yes, the article about for example Stockholm will probably be more elaborate in Swedish than in Danish, thus it would be relevant to read the Swedish article if you want are more thorough covering of the subject. But that is not limited to cities, it's sometimes a little bit random, how well a given subject is covered in a given language. Replace 'Danish' with another Scandinavian language, get the same result.

Why does the WMF enforce this language selector on the Scandinavian Wikipedias, when it is not suitable for use in this region? I think it is not an issue which only relates to Scandinavian languages, but similar issues probably applies to Romanic and Slavic languages. Its the combination of mutual intelligibility combined with the language education in Europe, which makes this solution undesirable. Why is this selector not enforced in dewiki BTW?

To put it short: The algorithms used in this selector is not suitable for use on Northern Germanic languages due to the circumstances in Northern Europe.

DigitalHamster (talkcontribs)

good point actually, and i didn't know that it tells you the number. Nevertheless, the proposed feature makes searching for a language "irrelevant to you" more complicated and cumbersome, and I still think it should be optional for added customisability.

Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

This was written by me at ~~~~

Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

Why can't I sign my messages here? ~~~~

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

You don't need to sign the messages here, because the signature is automatic :)

Making this feature on by default makes it easier for most people to find and click the languages that they need. This was proven by experimenting with real users during the design stage, and also by the data about clicks that has been collected since the deployment of this feature started in June 2016. As you can see in the data, the number of clicks in all languages went up, and in many languages it more than doubled.

People who prefer to see the full list all the time can turn it off in the preferences.

Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

(There is no full automatic signature, since there is no time stamp next to it. Now I see there is another kind of time stamp to the right.)

This feature hides most of the language links, making them harder to find and harder to go to. I don't believe in the proof, it is certainly sqewed because just the changed appearance made people click more, but with this feature it is harder to find the languages you are specifically looking for. The old, full list should be default.

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talkcontribs)

If it was just the changed appearance, then we should see a one-time spike followed by a decline later. I don't think that the data supports that theory; it seems to support a sustained higher level. The fact that it learns the languages you're most likely to visit probably affects this; instead of seeing a list of 100 languages, it shows a short list of the languages that you're most likely to visit.

That said, I've got it turned off on several wikis, because I have an unusual need to get between many dozens of language editions of Wikipedia. But I recognize that my work pattern is a bit different from typical editors. Most editors are only interested in languages that they can understand; they rarely need to leave a message or check a feedback page on wikis that they can't read. I also imagine that one of my colleagues, who can read about 20 languages, would find it a bit limiting. But we're the outliers, and the average editor seems to be better served by a tool that focuses on what you need (and lets you search by name or language code for anything that's not shown).

Madglad (talkcontribs)

This thing doesn't show the languages of our neighbourcountries, that everybody understands.

On the other hand it shows us languages, which may be big on the other side of the world, but languages almost nobody in my country understands.

It's algorithms simply aren't professional, it's data material also not. Please remove it from da-wiki, it's not suitable for our country.

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talkcontribs)

What language do you have your user interface set to (in Special:Preferences)?

Madglad (talkcontribs)

da - dansk

81.230.62.175 (talkcontribs)

The algoritms for language selection are indeed very unprofessional, we se the same problem on swedish wikipedia. It seem to be based on this

http://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/latest/supplemental/territory_language_information.html

list - interlingua is there set as zero speakers in sweden - still it's one of the default langages set on swedish wikipedia - simply because it's in the list.

Bandy Hoppsan (talkcontribs)

I agree, make this optional. And since this is all new, it was implemented just days ago, you can't have statistics for any significant amount of time yet to know wether the spike is a spike or not.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

@Bandy Hoppsan this was enabled in most languages in June–August 2017, so we do have data about almost languages for more than nine months by now. See Universal Language Selector/Compact Language Links/metrics/data.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

So when neighbouring mutually intelligible are not shown and not easily accessible for the average reader, this is recorded in the statistics as that there is no interest to read the articles in the mutually intelligible neighbour language. Strange logic.

The best way to collect statistics is first turn the system off, collect the statistics, then implement the system (after testing).

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

That's exactly what was done, as you can see on the statistics page. Statistics collection started before the system was deployed.

In June 2016, the number of clicks on the interlanguage links in the Danish Wikipedia out of the number of pageviews was 0.48%. In February 2017 it was 1.84%. Here's the full data:

June July August September October November December January February
0,4801% 0,6607% 0,4995% 0,4867% 0,9838% 0,9653% 2,2078% 1,8352% 1,4091%

The deployment to the Danish Wikipedia was done on July 14. It took a couple of months until the percent actually started growing, but it jumped up in October, and even further in December.

The numbers for most other languages in the same range of pageviews as the Danish Wikipedia have a similar growth trend. Here is Greek, for example:

June July August September October November December January February
0,2812% 0,2803% 0,2444% 0,2914% 0,6072% 0,8320% 1,4014% 1,2741% 0,8271%

(And here is the pageviews data.)

Both the user testing and the subsequent clicks data show that the compact list makes language links more easily accessible for most people. People who find it inconvenient can disable it.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

It might be that there is an increase in interlanguage clicks with fewer languages to select from.

BUT:

This is not the full statistics. A year is 12 months and a statistic examination should contain data for at least 5 years to make a reliable test in the multinomial distribution of the hypothesis that the increase is due to the new system. Another test that could be interesting to do is the hypothesis that there is seasonal changes, it might be your numbers are just reflecting this. You need a professional educated in statistics at master level. Just looking at some numbers and say "There is a tendency" is somthing we should leave to the tabloid journalism. In other words the claim "the subsequent clicks data show that the compact list makes language links more easily accessible for most people" cannot be scientifically justified.

Most importantly: Your data is lacking info of the decrease (my assumption, for obvious) in clicks on nn, nb and sv from da-wiki, after these languages have been removed.

The claim "People who find it inconvenient can disable it" relies on the false assumption that the majority of readers are experienced, registered users, not ip-readers.

Do you have a link to the full data set, you are using?

Bandy Hoppsan (talkcontribs)

@Amire80, I have been around many language versions and never seen it anywhere until some days ago.

I also like to have different languages for different kinds of articles, if this has to be mandatory (which I still think it shouldn't be). When I write about bandy, I want to have links to Swedish, Finnish, Russian and Norwegian. If I write about Japanese manga, I want to have links to Japanese, English and some other languages. If I write about something in Switzerland, I want to be able to easily compare German, French and Italian. This seems to be impossible with this system, which is one more reason to be against it.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

@Bandy Hoppsan, I'm not sure why you haven't seen this anywhere until recently. This existed as a beta feature since 2014. It was enabled as a default (non-beta) feature in Wikipedia in all languages except Swedish, Dutch, French, German, and English in August 2016. In February 2017 it was enabled also in French, Dutch, and Swedish. German and English will soon follow.

People who want to always see the long list, can disable the compact list it in the preferences (Appearance -> Languages; Utseende -> Språk).

Madglad (talkcontribs)

"People who want to always see the long list, can disable the compact list it in the preferences" - under the false assumption: All readers are experienced registered users and there er not many ip-readers.

Bandy Hoppsan (talkcontribs)

It should be disabled by default.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

Tell me, if an ip-reader wants to read about the Norwegian city Bergen, there will be a good chance that there will more extensive articles in Norwegian Bokmål (no, which is almost identical to Danish) and Norwegian Nynorsk (nn, which is mutually intelligble with Danish). These languages are not listed. As not logged in I get this list:

Another example, the Dutch city Utrecht, as IP:

In Europe people in general understand many languages, and these languages should initially be presented based on neighbouring countries and etymylogical relations, not on wrongly collected statistics. It make no sense to present languages big elsewhere in the world, but with almost zero understanders in europe.

This system is unusable in Europe.

Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

So, when will this idea with compact language links be scrapped? If you don't want to make compact links optional, you shouldn't implement them at all! This forcing compact links upon everyone because of subjective and unscientific interpretations of statistics is ridiculous and insulting,v

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Compact language links have always been optional for logged-in users. Go to Special:Preferences to enable or disable this tool.

Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

So? The problem is, that this is something you have to opt out from. If it is to exist at all, it should be something you could opt in to. Compact language links should not be forced upon people who are not logged in or who haven't discovered how to get rid of it.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

Maybe, but this software obviosly doesn't work in all regions, so disable it per default. What works for registered users is less important than making it work for all users.

Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

The extensive link of languages cannot disturb anyone, as it lies in the left margin and each of the languages is easy to find since they are in alphabetical order and you also can see what they link to by hovering over them if you want to.

When the language links are cropped together, you have to go search for them in a square which opens over the text in the article, thus overlaying part of the text you are researching at the moment, and in this square you have to scroll and the links are not easy to find, partly because of the scrolling and partly since they seem to be in some random geographical order.

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talkcontribs)

You don't have to scroll. There's a search field at the top of the box. Start typing in the name of the language you want, and it will find it for you.

Without CLL, Bergen gives me three full screenfuls of languages in the sidebar.

Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

So? It's still much harder to find the wanted language than to just have it in the left margin in the full list of languages, where it can be clicked immediately without searching or scrolling.

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talkcontribs)

If you can actually look at a list of 95 items in multiple scripts and "immediately without searching or scrolling" find a single item in it, then I'm impressed. Please consider uploading a screencast of how you "immediately without searching or scrolling" find items that are below the scroll; I'll send it to Design Research.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

No need to search, the language links are actually in alphabetic order. Scrolling through an alphabetic list is easier and more intuitive than searching through a a pop-up list ordered by first some arbitrary geopolitical grouping, next by the alphabet of the language, and third by the name of the country.

This system should be turned off by default until it can be reviewed by people having studied linguistics and/or computer science subject like HCI and user interface design.

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talkcontribs)

I believe that in the actual user research (which was, in fact, conducted by people who have studied human-computer interaction and UI design), words like "more intuitive" and "alphabetical" never appeared in descriptions of the older system.

This is hardly surprising, because very few people can correctly tell you whether Í precedes or follows I, or whether the Hebrew ע‎ precedes or follows the Arabic equivalent – or, for that matter, whether ﻉ precedes or follows itself, since there are at least three different systems for alphabetizing that letter. It is alternatively the 16th, 18th, and 21st letter of the alphabet, depending upon whether you're writing Arabic or Persian, and which of the two Arabic systems you are using for ordering.

So it might "be" alphabetical, but it "seems" like a random, unsearchable, unintuitive jumble to most readers, which is doubtless why so many strongly preferred a system that let them search in their own languages.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

Is this research documented somewhere?

Pginer-WMF (talkcontribs)

We have been doing research around language selection at different stages. For example, you can check the recordings of the research we did with the initial prototypes where we evaluated the general idea. The approach for language selection has been part of content Translation where different research studies have been organised in the context of campaign support and template translation in those studies language selection has been a common activity.

We also used secondary research such as the study on multilingual users to have a better understanding of the number of languages users use. After the initial deployments we are measuring data about the effect on cross-language navigation to better understand the effects on cross-language navigation.

Overall, it seems that finding a language you are looking for is easier in a short list than in a long list, but even for the cases where the language you look for is not there (which is an edge case that will only happen the first time but not the hundreds of times you'll access that language later) users can figure out that more languages are available and search helps them to find the language they look for. Data confirms that the changes not only do not introduce any barrier for users to navigate across languages but that such navigations increased after the change.

As mentioned above, the pattern of language access normally involves accessing a few languages many times, the main time-saver is the fact that after the initial selection, you will have the languages you use in a short and convenient list. Trying to optimise the fist-time experience is beneficial, but I don't think it should focus the discussion about the feature since the purpose is to improve the much common recurrent use.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

It seems that Danish Wikipedia has now been set up to automatically include Norwegian Bokmål and Swedish, which is reasonably enough.

But some questions:

Who has taken this decision? I haven't seen it discussed on dawiki.

Why is isn't Norwegian Nynorsk included on this list of default languages? Norwegian Bokmål is just one of the two Norwegian writing standards.

German is a minority language in Denmark according to the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, besides that most pupils in Denmark learn German in school. Same questions: Why is isn't German on the list of default languages?

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

German is definitely supposed to be included in the initial list, because it's defined as one of Denmark's languages in CLDR, along with Faroese and Kalaallisut.

I'm not sure what do you mean by this part: "Danish Wikipedia has now been set up to automatically include Norwegian Bokmål and Swedish". It has been possible for a long time to define preferred languages for a wiki. This existed before the Compact Languages Links feature, and Compact Language Links respects this setting. To see the current definitions, go to https://noc.wikimedia.org/conf/highlight.php?file=InitialiseSettings.php and search for "wgInterwikiSortingSortPrepend". I don't see a definition for the Danish Wikipedia there. It can be added if the Danish Wikipedia community requests it, although I suggest to add no more than three languages there because it will take over users' selections.

Dyveldi (talkcontribs)

DLL was turned on at Norwegian WP almost a year ago. I did not turn it off. I wanted to see what happened. The system has never been able to figure out which languages I visit most.

The system still tries to convince me that I visit Arabic, Chinese and Russian. Which I might have done due to the fact that the languages are presented first. The system influences my choice, but I do not seem to be able to influence the system. The system in this way is self confirming, it makes choices for me and then assumes it is my choice.

The system has figured out that I visit English, but I guess I have that in common with almost everybody reading Norwegian so it is not a personalized choice. It is everybody choice.

The system has not been able to figure out that I visit Italian at least as often as French. The system "thinks" I visit Spanish and Portuguese in spite of my more frequent visits to Italian.

The system has not been able to figure out that second to English I visit German. If I look at an article in another language I most often look at the English article and second I visit the German article. I visit German almost as often as I visit English.

The system does not reflect my personal work pattern. The system is not personalized to me. Calling this personalization is a sham and a shame. I have no idea who it is personalized to, but it most certainly is not my person and it seems to be automated guesses based on centralized assumptions of what someone guesses I might do without consulting me. and they have nothing to do with being personal.

If I read and do not log in it gets worse. It most certainly does not reflect the languages that are often used by persons reading from Norway. The system cannot possibly reflect work patterns from ip-adresses in Norway.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

It doesn't guess your most frequent choices, but your last choices. It doesn't keep a count. So if you visit Italian frequently, but you clicked Spanish recently, Spanish will be remembered, and Italian may be removed from the list of recent languages. It's actually very simple, and there's no super-smart AI behind it, the behavior is documented in the FAQ, and of course all the code is open. It's possible that it can start counting the frequency, too, but doing it in a way that respects users' privacy may be tricky.

Do you have data about what languages do people in Norway use? Currently the CLDR data lists only Bokmål, Nynorsk, and Northern Sami, and I agree that this list is definitely too short. It should probably have at least English; for example, Denmark has English, even though it's clearly a second language for most people there. If you have a census with information about languages that are spoken in Norway, it should be submitted as a fix suggestion. (Nemo bis, didn't you do something like this? Or may Norway wasn't included because it's not in the EU?)

Dyveldi (talkcontribs)

I have looked at the list since this was introduced on Norwegian WP. It has never reflected my last choices. It keeps including languages I have not used recently, some of the languages included I might have visited once or twice the last year. Languages I have used recently are to a large extent not included. I have kept an eye on the list for almost a year and it has never had anything very much to do with what I do.

Today I even had a list of languages where English was excluded. I visited Mozilla Firefox and English is not one of the "chosen" languages on todays "menu". Since English is the language I by far visit the most this goes to show how little the links have to do with my user pattern.

Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

When will the compact list be done away with? I see absolutely no good reasons given above for this to be forced upon the readers of Wikipedia. Wrongly interpreted statistics and unreferenced asumptions about what the "typical" reader wants are no good reasons. If some people still want this, then do it an opt-in option. Don't force it upon all and anyone.

Eduarodi (talkcontribs)

I use Wiktionary because I love languages, and I am interested in seeing how words are said in different languages. So I'm finding it rather tiresome having to deselect this option in every language Wikipedia I visit. I wish it could at least be possible to switch this option on and off for all languages at the same time.

Reply to "Make this optional, not default"
Gamliel Fishkin (talkcontribs)

It is not a feature, it is a bug! It discriminates against many languages. These are languages with not many speakers (tens of languages in Russia, hundreds of languages in Africa, etc.), and also languages whose most speakers are not familiar with computers and Internet. For example, I know that the Saam language exists thank to links to Wikipedia in it. But the new bug will hide links to articles in "small" languages, and Wikipedia readers will think that those languages do not exist. So, please do not enable this bug and no more develop it!

DidiWeidmann (talkcontribs)

Dear Gamlie Fishkin I can strongly support what you say: The new policy is a big discrimination of small languages and is completely unacceptable it is against the principles of human rights and lacks of respect of small cultures! ~~~~

Leofil2 (talkcontribs)

I agree with you 100%. This feature is a nuisance and contrary to encyclopedic spirit. An encyclopedia is a place where you can find all knowledge. All of it! Not a selection of it, according to some algorithm's idea of the languages the reader should be concerned with. I want to be able to see all the languages in which an article is available, even if I cannot read them, I want to be able to browse through such a list, with its variety of scripts, because it captures the very beauty of the Internet. I want to be able to reach the language in which any article is best relevant. I want to be able to do that even when I'm not logged in. Please make this feature optional, or best, cancel it.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

This feature will make these languages more prominent. Now languages of Russia, such as Tatar, Bashkir and Udmurt, will be shown prominently to people who connect from Russia. Earlier, you had to look for them in a list of more than 100 languages. Same for Saami—it will be shown prominently to people who connect from Norway or Finland.

DidiWeidmann (talkcontribs)

It gives the impression that this new feature is especially and expressly designed with the intention to discriminate several languages like Esperanto or Yiddish! There was now real need for such a system – I ask to restore the old System!

Eugrus (talkcontribs)

This is simply not true. The minor languages of Russia are not shown to me in the compact list on the Russian Wikipedia. What is being shown are just the wikis I use frequently. See w:ru:Земля, for instance, which has interwikis in a dozen of minor languages of Russia, but none are shown.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

@Eugrus, from which country are you connecting?

Which languages do you see? If you see languages that you use frequently, then it works as it is supposed to. Languages that you use frequently are probably the languages that you need the most. Languages of your country are shown if languages that you use frequently are not known, which will be true for all people the first time they see compact interlanguage links.

Leofil2 (talkcontribs)

What gives you the right to decide which languages I "need the most", and show me only these? Are we still on a free Wikipedia, or was it purchased by Facebook:(?

Gamliel Fishkin (talkcontribs)

So, human beings outside of Russia will think that the Tatar language does not exist, etc. It is just a discrimination. As a final result of such a discrimination, almost any human being in the world will think, that there in the world only two languages do exist: his or her native language and English.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

The user interface shows a list of languages that is customized for every user and helps people find information in their language. In articles with a lot of languages the list will have nine languages, and not two, and there will a button that says "X more languages", where X is the number.

Holder (talkcontribs)

For me this feature also looks like a discrimination of especially small languages. It does not help people to find information in their language, it helps people to find information just in big dominating languages!

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

Hi @Holder,

Thanks a lot for your comment.

As I explained above, this feature doesn't discriminate minor languages, but actually helps them by showing them more prominently to users that are most likely to know them.

I noticed on your user page that you are writing in the Alemannic Wikipedia. I checked the CLDR territory-language information table, and this language is supposed to be shown prominently to people who are connecting from France, Liechtenstein and Switzerland (search that table for "gsw"). At the moment, however, there is a particular bug for this language because of which it is not actually shown. I filed this as a task with high priority, and it will be fixed very soon. Once it's fixed, it will be shown prominently to everybody who is connecting from these countries.

Holder (talkcontribs)

@Amire80, that's indeed interesting news, thank you very much.

This long known problem is much more complicated: Alemannic language (and therefore also Alemannic Wikipedia) covers gsw, swg, wae and gct. That's why it hasn't been solved over the last ten years.

How will this be fixed in this case? It would be nice if als:wp would also be shown for readers in Germany where Alemannic is also be spoken by about five million people.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

Hi,

The data that we use can be found at http://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/29/supplemental/territory_language_information.html

I can see that swg is listed in Germany and wae is listed under Liechtenstein and Switzerland. gct is not listed anywhere, but you can ask to add it by clicking "add new" under the relevant country and supplying information about the number of speakers of this language in that country.

Technically, we can probably redirect all these codes to als, but I'll have to discuss it with the team. I added a comment at the bug report: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T139949

C933103 (talkcontribs)

It rely on CLDR and CLDR rely on some official figures, so if a country refuse to recognize a language is spoken in it then the data could be slewed. Different country also have different standard of what language being spoken there are common enough to be listed in it, for instance some languages spoken by only 0.x% population are listed for some countries while they are not in some other regions.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

From my experience, CLDR is fairly flexible with sources, and they listen to people who send reasonable bugs. If you have data that a language is spoken by a certain number of people, I encourage you to submit a bug there.

C933103 (talkcontribs)

And so we need people with enough knowledge in individual country's situation and are willing to put effort into searching for non biased info about language usage situation and also understanding that some languages that are traditionally not considered as language otself is actually a language, and the person must also be neutral enough in term of the matter to avoid intentional overlooking some languages and must also be willing to spend time to report the problem to CLDR.

Gamliel Fishkin (talkcontribs)

Firstly, some human beings speaking the Alemannic language can live outside of the countries where most its speakers live. Secondly, as a result of this universal language selector, human beings outside of these countries will not know that the Alemannic language exists.

It was in some of the first years of the twentieth century in the Russian Empire. Some day, one little Russian girl seen a nameplate in Yiddish or Hebrew on the door of some Jewish family. She was not Jewish, just Russian, but these letters interested her, she learned much and became a Soviet semitologist. Similarly, someone can be interested in a language of another nation thanks to seeing language's name in the interwikis; but that universal language selector destroys such a chance.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

@Gamliel Fishkin, I understand, but there is also another possibility: That somebody who lives in Russia and thinks that there is no Wikipedia in the Tatar language, will find out that there is one. Compact Language Links make this more likely.

C933103 (talkcontribs)

@Amire80 When most major languages are displayed outside the panel, the need to find interlanguage link from the panel would be minimized. This reduce the chance for user to discover discover what they might want, if they don't know such a Wikipedia exist before. Even in a huge list, users would have a higher chance to discover their familiar small language than such a large list because users would be more familiar with language names written in their native script and native language, but if they never click into the panel then the chance for them to discover their language Wikipedia become 0

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

The languages are tailored for each user, and they are not necessarily major. A minor language of the user's country will be preferred to a major language spoken outside of the user's country.

C933103 (talkcontribs)

In countries like Russia, India or China, there are far more than 10 languages spoken in those countries and inevitably native language of some users can only be found in the expanded panel.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

This is indeed an issue: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T133029

There's no easy solution for it, but we'll definitely get there.

Leofil2 (talkcontribs)

There is an easy solution: just cancel your very bad idea:( (aka known as fausse bonne idée in my mother tongue...)

Gamliel Fishkin (talkcontribs)

The only solution for such an issue is to turn this "feature" off and forget it.

C933103 (talkcontribs)

Even if you enable subregion-based filtering, there are always regions like Moscow or Shanghai where every community in the country would have people going to there for economic reason and result in more than 10 languages spoken in the same subregion.

Jørgen (talkcontribs)

I can see great possibilities in this feature - if it is changed a little bit. It is impossible to get all people satisfied with a uniform solution. Let the user decide! Have a list in 'preferences' where you can tick all the languages you want shown, and a button below to show the full list. As a dane, I see english, spanish and german, but need french, swedish and norwegian too. I have arabic, urdu, chinese and hindi. These languages are probably spoken by some immigrated inhabitants of my country, but useless to the vast majority. Føroysk and kalaalisut are languages from the north atlantic former possesions. I have no idea what to do with them, most danes cannot understand them, let alone write these languages.

Holder (talkcontribs)

@Jørgen, the problem is that there has to be a decision what is shown to readers.

Jørgen (talkcontribs)

yes, let the readers decide themselves by ticking a list. And for Ip-readers, let the list be default 'all' as it used to be.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

You can pre-select the languages according to instructions at Universal Language Selector/Compact Language Links.

Also, every language that you select simply by clicking is remembered, so this feature adapts itself to every user (including anonymous readers).