Talk:Universal Language Selector/Compact Language Links

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This is the feedback page for the Compact Language Links feature.

See the Frequently Asked Questions.

All feedback is welcome. You can write in any language.

You don't have to do this, but it will be helpful if you mention the following things:

  • The browser and the operating system you are using, including version numbers.
  • The language of your operating system.
  • The country from which you are reading the site.

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Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

This new idea is strange. Links to lots of languages are hidden away, instead of being shown in the list where they are easily found.

If someone like this idea, let them have it as an option. For all others, including people who are not logged in, the default should be the real, full list of languages for every article, so you can find them. ~~~~

~~~~

83.134.162.97 (talkcontribs)

I support your remarks for 100%, but is there still hope for a multilingual list as a default choice ?

DigitalHamster (talkcontribs)

Yes, I completely agree. For instance, if you want to see how many languages a page is in, or you want to translate a page and are seeing if it already exists, this setting would make it difficult to check.

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talkcontribs)

I think it's the other way around. Compact Language Links gives you a short list of languages that are most likely to interest you, plus an actual, numeric count of the others. For example, https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergen lists nine languages for me and tells me that there are 86 more. I can quickly determine that 9+86=95 (plus the page that I'm on). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergen (where I have CLL turned off) gives me a long list with no count. With CLL, I can tell you that 96 Wikipedias have an article on that subject. Without CLL, I will tell you that the answer is "lots".

If you are translating a page, you've probably been reading in that language, so CLL will put the target language in the short list (not somewhere in the long list of 95 other languages).

Even if it's not in the short list, with CLL, you can search for that language by name and ISO language code just by clicking the button that says "85 more". For example, if you want to know whether that article exists in Finnish, you can find it by searching for fi (language code), Suomi (Finnish name) Finnish (English), ffinneg (Welsh), fiński (Polish), or many other languages.

Without CLL, you have to know that the Finnish word for that language is "Suomi", and you have to scan through about 85% of the long list until you find that word (because the fi language code is alphabetized in the S's). This does not sound like an improvement to me.

DigitalHamster (talkcontribs)

Actually, thinking back on what has been said and seeing other comments, if this list was expandable (just by clicking the "x others" button that is actually a very nice feature

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talkcontribs)

If you haven't used it for a while, then I encourage you to try it out for a few days. There's nothing more effective for discovering its strengths and weaknesses than trying to live with it.

As I said, I've got it turned off at the English Wikipedia, and that's not an accident. I need to do things like open every language's equivalent of the Village Pump (technical) in tabs more often than I need to find articles in languages that I can actually read. It's good for finding languages that I visit often; it's not so great for opening 62 tabs. (Also: Oh, how I miss Linky.)

For power users like us, whether CLL is more efficient or less efficient is a pretty personal thing, based on the kind of work that you personally do. You'll know whether it fits your personal work patterns after interacting with it a few days.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

I really miss an understanding that "power users like us" and registered, experienced user is a very small minority. Wikipedia is an open encyclopedia for everybody, and should work also for ip users in the whole world. CLL should be rolled back, until acceptable algorithms are devoloped. The algoritms take into consideration dialect continua and neighbouring countries. The current algorithm seems to have absolutely no understanding of this.

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talkcontribs)

The current algorithm is based on an internationally recognized database (whose name escapes me at the moment). I believe that the Language team would be perfectly happy to see that database updated to recognize that several Scandinavian languages are divided more by politics and history than by actual linguistic elements. If you've got the data that says, for example, that most Norwegians and Swedes and Danes can read each other's "separate" languages, then I'll find someone who can help you figure out how to propose a correction to the database.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

It seems that the purpose of the mentioned database is not the cover mutually intelligible, but to cover official languages. Mutual intelligibility is not only restricted to Scandinavian languages, see .

Mutual intelligibility is not the only issue. Schools tend to educate also in other important languages in the region, eg. many schools in western Europe teaches German and French etc.

Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

Whatamidoing, I am never only interested in just a couple of languages which "most interest" me. I am interested in all languages and in how many languages there are where a subject has an article.

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talkcontribs)

I understand that you are interested in all the languages. Do you think that you are a perfectly typical reader?

Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

The typical reader will be interested in different languages for different articles. If you read about a subject endemic to another country, you would probably be interested in seeing the article in that country's language, whether you know the language or not, because it will probably have more images, maps, tables etc. You will not be interested in exactly the same foreign languages in every article you read.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

It is common here in Europe that you learn several languages besides your native language. In Denmark eg often English, German and French. Being native Danish, means that you will also understand Norwegian Bokmål, Norwegian Nynorsk and Swedish. That totals to 6 languages besides Danish. That is perfectly typical.

And: Faroese and Kalaallisut (Greenlandic) have some status as minority languages in Denmark and is relevant to be shown always in dawiki, even though the languages are only understood by a minority of Danish speakers.

People having learned French will possibly also be able to understand some Spanish, possibly also Italian and Portuguese.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

Faroese and Kalaallisut are supposed to be shown by default. Is there an article that has a corresponding article in Faroese or Kalaallisut, and which doesn't show links to them?

Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

They are not shown by default in articles in Swedish, but I'd like to see them when reading about things to do with the Faroe Islands or Greenland. Why do you want to stop me from finding them easily in the extensive language list in the left margin? They do not bother anyone there.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

I guess not. It which just supplementary comment when counting languages. But of course not relevant to which languages, a random Danish person will understand.

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talkcontribs)

I freely grant that some people speak multiple languages. However:

  1. The ability to read and write a given language doesn't make you interested in reading that language's Wikipedia. (See, e.g., the many editors who speak a non-English language natively, but exclusively edit the English Wikipedia.)
  2. The fact that some people can do this does not mean that typical people can do this. IMO it makes more sense for the default to work for the typical reader, rather than the unusually accomplished linguist.
Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

How can you be so sure about what the 'typical' person is interested in?

  1. It is not the ability to read and write the language which makes you want to seek out information in that langauge's version of Wikipedia. It is the interest for information. The interest which took you to an encyclopedia in the first place.
  2. Typical people will likely want to find information from any language where something is written on the subject, whether they know the language or not.
Madglad (talkcontribs)

As explained above Danish people will very often understand 7 languages, possibly more, some will understand only 5 or 6, or in rare cases fewer. And yes, the article about for example Stockholm will probably be more elaborate in Swedish than in Danish, thus it would be relevant to read the Swedish article if you want are more thorough covering of the subject. But that is not limited to cities, it's sometimes a little bit random, how well a given subject is covered in a given language. Replace 'Danish' with another Scandinavian language, get the same result.

Why does the WMF enforce this language selector on the Scandinavian Wikipedias, when it is not suitable for use in this region? I think it is not an issue which only relates to Scandinavian languages, but similar issues probably applies to Romanic and Slavic languages. Its the combination of mutual intelligibility combined with the language education in Europe, which makes this solution undesirable. Why is this selector not enforced in dewiki BTW?

To put it short: The algorithms used in this selector is not suitable for use on Northern Germanic languages due to the circumstances in Northern Europe.

DigitalHamster (talkcontribs)

good point actually, and i didn't know that it tells you the number. Nevertheless, the proposed feature makes searching for a language "irrelevant to you" more complicated and cumbersome, and I still think it should be optional for added customisability.

Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

This was written by me at ~~~~

Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

Why can't I sign my messages here? ~~~~

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

You don't need to sign the messages here, because the signature is automatic :)

Making this feature on by default makes it easier for most people to find and click the languages that they need. This was proven by experimenting with real users during the design stage, and also by the data about clicks that has been collected since the deployment of this feature started in June 2016. As you can see in the data, the number of clicks in all languages went up, and in many languages it more than doubled.

People who prefer to see the full list all the time can turn it off in the preferences.

Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

(There is no full automatic signature, since there is no time stamp next to it. Now I see there is another kind of time stamp to the right.)

This feature hides most of the language links, making them harder to find and harder to go to. I don't believe in the proof, it is certainly sqewed because just the changed appearance made people click more, but with this feature it is harder to find the languages you are specifically looking for. The old, full list should be default.

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talkcontribs)

If it was just the changed appearance, then we should see a one-time spike followed by a decline later. I don't think that the data supports that theory; it seems to support a sustained higher level. The fact that it learns the languages you're most likely to visit probably affects this; instead of seeing a list of 100 languages, it shows a short list of the languages that you're most likely to visit.

That said, I've got it turned off on several wikis, because I have an unusual need to get between many dozens of language editions of Wikipedia. But I recognize that my work pattern is a bit different from typical editors. Most editors are only interested in languages that they can understand; they rarely need to leave a message or check a feedback page on wikis that they can't read. I also imagine that one of my colleagues, who can read about 20 languages, would find it a bit limiting. But we're the outliers, and the average editor seems to be better served by a tool that focuses on what you need (and lets you search by name or language code for anything that's not shown).

Madglad (talkcontribs)

This thing doesn't show the languages of our neighbourcountries, that everybody understands.

On the other hand it shows us languages, which may be big on the other side of the world, but languages almost nobody in my country understands.

It's algorithms simply aren't professional, it's data material also not. Please remove it from da-wiki, it's not suitable for our country.

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talkcontribs)

What language do you have your user interface set to (in Special:Preferences)?

Madglad (talkcontribs)

da - dansk

81.230.62.175 (talkcontribs)

The algoritms for language selection are indeed very unprofessional, we se the same problem on swedish wikipedia. It seem to be based on this

http://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/latest/supplemental/territory_language_information.html

list - interlingua is there set as zero speakers in sweden - still it's one of the default langages set on swedish wikipedia - simply because it's in the list.

Bandy Hoppsan (talkcontribs)

I agree, make this optional. And since this is all new, it was implemented just days ago, you can't have statistics for any significant amount of time yet to know wether the spike is a spike or not.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

@Bandy Hoppsan this was enabled in most languages in June–August 2017, so we do have data about almost languages for more than nine months by now. See Universal Language Selector/Compact Language Links/metrics/data.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

So when neighbouring mutually intelligible are not shown and not easily accessible for the average reader, this is recorded in the statistics as that there is no interest to read the articles in the mutually intelligible neighbour language. Strange logic.

The best way to collect statistics is first turn the system off, collect the statistics, then implement the system (after testing).

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

That's exactly what was done, as you can see on the statistics page. Statistics collection started before the system was deployed.

In June 2016, the number of clicks on the interlanguage links in the Danish Wikipedia out of the number of pageviews was 0.48%. In February 2017 it was 1.84%. Here's the full data:

June July August September October November December January February
0,4801% 0,6607% 0,4995% 0,4867% 0,9838% 0,9653% 2,2078% 1,8352% 1,4091%

The deployment to the Danish Wikipedia was done on July 14. It took a couple of months until the percent actually started growing, but it jumped up in October, and even further in December.

The numbers for most other languages in the same range of pageviews as the Danish Wikipedia have a similar growth trend. Here is Greek, for example:

June July August September October November December January February
0,2812% 0,2803% 0,2444% 0,2914% 0,6072% 0,8320% 1,4014% 1,2741% 0,8271%

(And here is the pageviews data.)

Both the user testing and the subsequent clicks data show that the compact list makes language links more easily accessible for most people. People who find it inconvenient can disable it.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

It might be that there is an increase in interlanguage clicks with fewer languages to select from.

BUT:

This is not the full statistics. A year is 12 months and a statistic examination should contain data for at least 5 years to make a reliable test in the multinomial distribution of the hypothesis that the increase is due to the new system. Another test that could be interesting to do is the hypothesis that there is seasonal changes, it might be your numbers are just reflecting this. You need a professional educated in statistics at master level. Just looking at some numbers and say "There is a tendency" is somthing we should leave to the tabloid journalism. In other words the claim "the subsequent clicks data show that the compact list makes language links more easily accessible for most people" cannot be scientifically justified.

Most importantly: Your data is lacking info of the decrease (my assumption, for obvious) in clicks on nn, nb and sv from da-wiki, after these languages have been removed.

The claim "People who find it inconvenient can disable it" relies on the false assumption that the majority of readers are experienced, registered users, not ip-readers.

Do you have a link to the full data set, you are using?

Bandy Hoppsan (talkcontribs)

@Amire80, I have been around many language versions and never seen it anywhere until some days ago.

I also like to have different languages for different kinds of articles, if this has to be mandatory (which I still think it shouldn't be). When I write about bandy, I want to have links to Swedish, Finnish, Russian and Norwegian. If I write about Japanese manga, I want to have links to Japanese, English and some other languages. If I write about something in Switzerland, I want to be able to easily compare German, French and Italian. This seems to be impossible with this system, which is one more reason to be against it.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

@Bandy Hoppsan, I'm not sure why you haven't seen this anywhere until recently. This existed as a beta feature since 2014. It was enabled as a default (non-beta) feature in Wikipedia in all languages except Swedish, Dutch, French, German, and English in August 2016. In February 2017 it was enabled also in French, Dutch, and Swedish. German and English will soon follow.

People who want to always see the long list, can disable the compact list it in the preferences (Appearance -> Languages; Utseende -> Språk).

Madglad (talkcontribs)

"People who want to always see the long list, can disable the compact list it in the preferences" - under the false assumption: All readers are experienced registered users and there er not many ip-readers.

Bandy Hoppsan (talkcontribs)

It should be disabled by default.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

Tell me, if an ip-reader wants to read about the Norwegian city Bergen, there will be a good chance that there will more extensive articles in Norwegian Bokmål (no, which is almost identical to Danish) and Norwegian Nynorsk (nn, which is mutually intelligble with Danish). These languages are not listed. As not logged in I get this list:

Another example, the Dutch city Utrecht, as IP:

In Europe people in general understand many languages, and these languages should initially be presented based on neighbouring countries and etymylogical relations, not on wrongly collected statistics. It make no sense to present languages big elsewhere in the world, but with almost zero understanders in europe.

This system is unusable in Europe.

Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

So, when will this idea with compact language links be scrapped? If you don't want to make compact links optional, you shouldn't implement them at all! This forcing compact links upon everyone because of subjective and unscientific interpretations of statistics is ridiculous and insulting,v

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Compact language links have always been optional for logged-in users. Go to Special:Preferences to enable or disable this tool.

Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

So? The problem is, that this is something you have to opt out from. If it is to exist at all, it should be something you could opt in to. Compact language links should not be forced upon people who are not logged in or who haven't discovered how to get rid of it.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

Maybe, but this software obviosly doesn't work in all regions, so disable it per default. What works for registered users is less important than making it work for all users.

Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

The extensive link of languages cannot disturb anyone, as it lies in the left margin and each of the languages is easy to find since they are in alphabetical order and you also can see what they link to by hovering over them if you want to.

When the language links are cropped together, you have to go search for them in a square which opens over the text in the article, thus overlaying part of the text you are researching at the moment, and in this square you have to scroll and the links are not easy to find, partly because of the scrolling and partly since they seem to be in some random geographical order.

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talkcontribs)

You don't have to scroll. There's a search field at the top of the box. Start typing in the name of the language you want, and it will find it for you.

Without CLL, Bergen gives me three full screenfuls of languages in the sidebar.

Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

So? It's still much harder to find the wanted language than to just have it in the left margin in the full list of languages, where it can be clicked immediately without searching or scrolling.

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talkcontribs)

If you can actually look at a list of 95 items in multiple scripts and "immediately without searching or scrolling" find a single item in it, then I'm impressed. Please consider uploading a screencast of how you "immediately without searching or scrolling" find items that are below the scroll; I'll send it to Design Research.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

No need to search, the language links are actually in alphabetic order. Scrolling through an alphabetic list is easier and more intuitive than searching through a a pop-up list ordered by first some arbitrary geopolitical grouping, next by the alphabet of the language, and third by the name of the country.

This system should be turned off by default until it can be reviewed by people having studied linguistics and/or computer science subject like HCI and user interface design.

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talkcontribs)

I believe that in the actual user research (which was, in fact, conducted by people who have studied human-computer interaction and UI design), words like "more intuitive" and "alphabetical" never appeared in descriptions of the older system.

This is hardly surprising, because very few people can correctly tell you whether Í precedes or follows I, or whether the Hebrew ע‎ precedes or follows the Arabic equivalent – or, for that matter, whether ﻉ precedes or follows itself, since there are at least three different systems for alphabetizing that letter. It is alternatively the 16th, 18th, and 21st letter of the alphabet, depending upon whether you're writing Arabic or Persian, and which of the two Arabic systems you are using for ordering.

So it might "be" alphabetical, but it "seems" like a random, unsearchable, unintuitive jumble to most readers, which is doubtless why so many strongly preferred a system that let them search in their own languages.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

Is this research documented somewhere?

Pginer-WMF (talkcontribs)

We have been doing research around language selection at different stages. For example, you can check the recordings of the research we did with the initial prototypes where we evaluated the general idea. The approach for language selection has been part of content Translation where different research studies have been organised in the context of campaign support and template translation in those studies language selection has been a common activity.

We also used secondary research such as the study on multilingual users to have a better understanding of the number of languages users use. After the initial deployments we are measuring data about the effect on cross-language navigation to better understand the effects on cross-language navigation.

Overall, it seems that finding a language you are looking for is easier in a short list than in a long list, but even for the cases where the language you look for is not there (which is an edge case that will only happen the first time but not the hundreds of times you'll access that language later) users can figure out that more languages are available and search helps them to find the language they look for. Data confirms that the changes not only do not introduce any barrier for users to navigate across languages but that such navigations increased after the change.

As mentioned above, the pattern of language access normally involves accessing a few languages many times, the main time-saver is the fact that after the initial selection, you will have the languages you use in a short and convenient list. Trying to optimise the fist-time experience is beneficial, but I don't think it should focus the discussion about the feature since the purpose is to improve the much common recurrent use.

Madglad (talkcontribs)

It seems that Danish Wikipedia has now been set up to automatically include Norwegian Bokmål and Swedish, which is reasonably enough.

But some questions:

Who has taken this decision? I haven't seen it discussed on dawiki.

Why is isn't Norwegian Nynorsk included on this list of default languages? Norwegian Bokmål is just one of the two Norwegian writing standards.

German is a minority language in Denmark according to the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, besides that most pupils in Denmark learn German in school. Same questions: Why is isn't German on the list of default languages?

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

German is definitely supposed to be included in the initial list, because it's defined as one of Denmark's languages in CLDR, along with Faroese and Kalaallisut.

I'm not sure what do you mean by this part: "Danish Wikipedia has now been set up to automatically include Norwegian Bokmål and Swedish". It has been possible for a long time to define preferred languages for a wiki. This existed before the Compact Languages Links feature, and Compact Language Links respects this setting. To see the current definitions, go to https://noc.wikimedia.org/conf/highlight.php?file=InitialiseSettings.php and search for "wgInterwikiSortingSortPrepend". I don't see a definition for the Danish Wikipedia there. It can be added if the Danish Wikipedia community requests it, although I suggest to add no more than three languages there because it will take over users' selections.

Dyveldi (talkcontribs)

DLL was turned on at Norwegian WP almost a year ago. I did not turn it off. I wanted to see what happened. The system has never been able to figure out which languages I visit most.

The system still tries to convince me that I visit Arabic, Chinese and Russian. Which I might have done due to the fact that the languages are presented first. The system influences my choice, but I do not seem to be able to influence the system. The system in this way is self confirming, it makes choices for me and then assumes it is my choice.

The system has figured out that I visit English, but I guess I have that in common with almost everybody reading Norwegian so it is not a personalized choice. It is everybody choice.

The system has not been able to figure out that I visit Italian at least as often as French. The system "thinks" I visit Spanish and Portuguese in spite of my more frequent visits to Italian.

The system has not been able to figure out that second to English I visit German. If I look at an article in another language I most often look at the English article and second I visit the German article. I visit German almost as often as I visit English.

The system does not reflect my personal work pattern. The system is not personalized to me. Calling this personalization is a sham and a shame. I have no idea who it is personalized to, but it most certainly is not my person and it seems to be automated guesses based on centralized assumptions of what someone guesses I might do without consulting me. and they have nothing to do with being personal.

If I read and do not log in it gets worse. It most certainly does not reflect the languages that are often used by persons reading from Norway. The system cannot possibly reflect work patterns from ip-adresses in Norway.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

It doesn't guess your most frequent choices, but your last choices. It doesn't keep a count. So if you visit Italian frequently, but you clicked Spanish recently, Spanish will be remembered, and Italian may be removed from the list of recent languages. It's actually very simple, and there's no super-smart AI behind it, the behavior is documented in the FAQ, and of course all the code is open. It's possible that it can start counting the frequency, too, but doing it in a way that respects users' privacy may be tricky.

Do you have data about what languages do people in Norway use? Currently the CLDR data lists only Bokmål, Nynorsk, and Northern Sami, and I agree that this list is definitely too short. It should probably have at least English; for example, Denmark has English, even though it's clearly a second language for most people there. If you have a census with information about languages that are spoken in Norway, it should be submitted as a fix suggestion. (Nemo bis, didn't you do something like this? Or may Norway wasn't included because it's not in the EU?)

Dyveldi (talkcontribs)

I have looked at the list since this was introduced on Norwegian WP. It has never reflected my last choices. It keeps including languages I have not used recently, some of the languages included I might have visited once or twice the last year. Languages I have used recently are to a large extent not included. I have kept an eye on the list for almost a year and it has never had anything very much to do with what I do.

Today I even had a list of languages where English was excluded. I visited Mozilla Firefox and English is not one of the "chosen" languages on todays "menu". Since English is the language I by far visit the most this goes to show how little the links have to do with my user pattern.

Pepparkaksgubbe (talkcontribs)

When will the compact list be done away with? I see absolutely no good reasons given above for this to be forced upon the readers of Wikipedia. Wrongly interpreted statistics and unreferenced asumptions about what the "typical" reader wants are no good reasons. If some people still want this, then do it an opt-in option. Don't force it upon all and anyone.

Reply to "Make this optional, not default"
Whatamidoing (WMF) (talkcontribs)

@Amire80, I just spent five minutes(!) looking for a link to the Japanese Wikipedia. Why? Well, there are about 200 links for that page, and "Japanese" is alphabetized between Dutch and Norwegian, which is not even close to where I expected to find it.

So: thanks for making CLL, and, while I'm still leaving it turned off at enwiki, the next time I need to do this, I'm jumping to one of the other wikis where I've left it enabled, so I can find strangely alphabetized links with the CLL search feature instead.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

Thanks :)


You probably figured it out already, but it's probably there because its own name is pronounced Nihongo, so it makes some sense that it's between Nederlands and Norsk, but this assumes knowledge of Japanese. The search box allows you to search for Japanese in any language: "Japanese", "японська", "יפנית", "日本語", etc. And also "ja" for people who are into language codes.

Reply to "Ease of finding links"
Od1n (talkcontribs)

When this thing is enabled, it now produces the following JavaScript warning:

This page is using the deprecated ResourceLoader module "es5-shim".
Use of the "es5-shim" module is deprecated since MediaWiki 1.29.0
Nikerabbit (talkcontribs)

It's harmless, though annoying. It's being discussed in Phab:T162590.

Reply to "JavaScript warning"

Artificial Intelligence for choosing languages - really?!

1
Martin Josefsson (talkcontribs)

In 2014-05-10 I wrote "Automation is overkill in a situation where there is only a few hundred languages to choose from". And still somebody is working on it! Why waste time on the AI in this project? Why not simply let the user choose which languages should appear in the list, and in which order?

For about a year or so I have been using a Firefox/Greasemonkey extension called Wikipedia rearrange other languages, instead of the built-in Compact Language Links function. It is a simple extension (31 or 50 rows of code), but it works exactly as I want it to. In the code of the extension you can insert the languages that you want to appear at the very topmost of the list and then you can choose if you also want the other languages to show up. My customization of the code looks like this:

// set your languages here

var myLangs = ["en", "sv", "fi", "da", "no", "nn", "de", "et", "nl", "es", "simple"];

// setting false will leave other languages in the list

var removeOthers = false;

Reply to "Artificial Intelligence for choosing languages - really?!"
Nouill (talkcontribs)

Some peoples complains that wp:fr should offer on the default/short interwiki menu (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Le_Bistro/7_f%C3%A9vrier_2017#Langues_disponibles_sur_la_page_d.27accueil), like deutsch and spanish languages, instead of regional languages like picard. I relatively agree with that complain. I take deutsch and spanish for example, because there are predominant foreign languages that the general population learn on third language in school. 

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

@Amire80 told me to that a possible lead is to find data concerning the main languages spoken in France. That way, it would be possible to change the CLDR used by the CLL. But I've found nothing so far (INSEE, DGLFLF...). @Xenophôn, can you help?

Nouill (talkcontribs)

http://www.ined.fr/lili_efl2010/cahier_ined_156/ci_156_partie_8.30.pdf => "Institut national d'études démographiques" (Ined) studied that the main language (other that french) in Ile-de-France (12 millions habitants => Paris and around Paris) are in 1999 :

  • English (18 %, not 39 % and this is surely the more english-speaking region)
  • Arabic (5 %)
  • Spanish (5 %)
  • Portuguese (4 %)
  • Deutsch (~2 %)
  • Italian (~2 %)
  • Regional language (1 %) => (Ile-de-France don't have local/regional language)

http://www.ined.fr/fichier/s_rubrique/18724/pop_et_soc_francais_376.fr.pdf => show that the main language (other that french) in France which are transmitted to children in 1999 (so the regional language are surely more low now) are :

  • Arabic (500 k)
  • Alsatian (400 k)
  • Portuguese (350 k)
  • Oïl language (300 k)
  • Spanish (290k)
  • English (280 K)
  • Occitan language (250 k)
  • Italian (200k)
  • Deutsch (150k)

http://www.onisep.fr/Parents/Cartographie-des-principales-langues-vivantes-enseignees-au-college-a-la-rentree-2016 and http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/5177349/3-25092014-AP-FR.PDF/fce15e33-b870-4f68-9c06-0bb906186ec9?version=1.0 => Show that the 3 languages that are studied in school in France are English, Spanish and Deutsch.

http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_386_en.pdf (page 23 (on pdf) or 21 (on the document)) => show that the foreign language those are comprehended in France are :

  • English (39 %)
  • Spanish (13 %)
  • Deutsch (6 %)

http://languageknowledge.eu/countries/france (is reporting the previous source) indicate that main languages spoken in France are :

  • English (24%)
  • Spanish (9 %)
  • Deutsch (5 %)
  • Italian (3 %)
  • Arabic (2 %)
  • Portuguese (2 %)

http://www.culturecommunication.gouv.fr/content/download/93537/841041/version/4/file/lc_10_occitan_def.pdf (page 5) show that in Provence in the same survey in 1999, the people who speak those language with others peoples are (the text say that the values are underestimated) :

  • English 4,4 %
  • Italian 2,6 %
  • Spanish 2,4 %
  • Arabic 2,2 %
  • Occitan 2,2 %
Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Wow. Great job!

131.175.28.130 (talkcontribs)

This is explained in ULS/FAQ#language-territory. English, Spanish and German have already been fixed: http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/ticket/9680 . Perhaps ULS needs to be updated to the latest CLDR release.

The INED data is not directly usable since it's about education (we already discarded Euridyce data which is similar), while the figures for Italian, Arabic and Portuguese seem usable given that http://languageknowledge.eu/about claims to have the raw Eurostat data as source.

Nouill (talkcontribs)

The Ined data isn't about education. The two links (and other that doestn't found) resume a survey on 380 000 peoples => "l'enquête famille de l'Insee-Ined de 1999". That I think is one of the main references on the subject. The picture 5 of http://www.ined.fr/lili_efl2010/cahier_ined_156/ci_156_partie_8.30.pdf speak explicitely about spearker. http://www.ined.fr/fichier/s_rubrique/18724/pop_et_soc_francais_376.fr.pdf is about language transmission in familly, it is incomplet because it doesn't include language of immigrant, or language learn in school, but that show clearly that the CLDR is very incomplete.

More generally, I don't very happy with the CLDR, because I see that highlight regional language and english. And I have the feeling that modify that CLDR is very long. And I don't thing the french community (which can be heavily against the dev when they want) will wait 6 month or more, to have deutsch, spanish, arabic, etc, on default setting, and I think that they will rapidly ask to remove the feature if it does not be improve.

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

It is possible to rollback the change made to display a list of languages on the Main page, until we find the relevant data and fix it. @Amire80, what do you think?

Nouill (talkcontribs)

I created a ticket http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/ticket/10056, you can see similar ticket on http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/search?q=%22Add+language+to%22&noquickjump=1&changeset=on&milestone=on&ticket=on&wiki=on

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Okay, apparently Nemo-bis has forgotten to update the data. :)

Everything is ready http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/ticket/9680#comment:1 and France will have Spanish and German languages as inter-wiki links.

Reply to "Most common languages of France"
193.163.131.133 (talkcontribs)

Why is this feature turned off on the english-language wikipedia ? And the german and french language.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

Also Swedish and Dutch.

These are bigger projects with more users, so it requires a bit more planning, but it will definitely be enabled in the coming weeks. Announcements with dates will be published soon.

In the meantime, it can be enabled as a beta feature, and we'll be very happy to listen to the feedback.

Liuxinyu970226 (talkcontribs)

@Amire80: And how about Meta-Wiki? I even can't try it out?

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

It's not on Meta because Meta doesn't have different language versions in the same way that Wikipedia does.

Technically, the preferences doesn't appear anywhere at Meta, because $wgInterwikiMagic is set to false there. If I understand correctly, pre-Wikidata interlanguage links like [[fr:Accueil principal]] won't go to the sidebar without $wgInterwikiMagic. Meta can have Wikidata sitelinks, however, which is why the Meta Main page has interlanguage links, but where else does Meta have them?

I guess that Compact Language Links could be enabled on Meta if the use case on Meta is comparable to Wikipedia. (And on a more technical note, maybe $wgInterwikiMagic could be set to true now that we've had Wikidata for years, but that would be a separate discussion.)

Reply to "On english language wikipedia"
Madglad (talkcontribs)

Please deactivate this unsolicited and misguided feature for dawiki.

The languages selected are not very relevant to Danish speakers. Several relevant languages are absent, and in their place are languages understood by only a miniscule fraction of Danish speakers.

Note that major changes to da.wiki are not to be implemented prior to achieving consensus on , or, if need be, a vote on the issue.

Rodejong (talkcontribs)

If it can't be deactivated, it would be nice to have the following relevant languages connected to danish:

  • DE German
  • EN English
  • FO Faeroe
  • FR French
  • KL Greenlandic
  • IS Icelandic
  • NL Dutch
  • NN Norwegian nynorsk
  • NO Norwegian bokmål
  • SV Swedish

Kind regards Rodejong

Pginer-WMF (talkcontribs)

Thanks for the feedback @Madglad and @Rodejong,

Multiple criteria is used to determine the likely languages for a user, and users can customise the languages shown at different levels. The easies way is just to navigate through the languages you are interested in, and those will be remembered for the next time. Users can also adjust their language settings in the browser or contribute to CLDR to have more accurate information about the languages in their region which is used as fallback information when direct information from the user is not available. Communities can also customize the order of the languages which is also taken into account in the language selection.

Note also that the languages shown are selected only from those in which the article is available, so they can differ from article to article. the lack of global settings, makes that the system does not learn about previous choices globally but on a per wiki basis, as a result it may take more time until your usual options are totally personalised.

Our observations suggest that the new links make it more easy to switch across languages, and the data we collected so far indicates that the cross-language navigation has increased for the projects where the compact language links are available. If this is not your case, we are definitely interested in knowing more details about your particular cases (which languages were shown for which article, which ones were expected, whether the results were better over time or not, etc.).

Thanks!

Reply to "Request for deactivation for dawiki"
Gamliel Fishkin (talkcontribs)

It is not a feature, it is a bug! It discriminates against many languages. These are languages with not many speakers (tens of languages in Russia, hundreds of languages in Africa, etc.), and also languages whose most speakers are not familiar with computers and Internet. For example, I know that the Saam language exists thank to links to Wikipedia in it. But the new bug will hide links to articles in "small" languages, and Wikipedia readers will think that those languages do not exist. So, please do not enable this bug and no more develop it!

DidiWeidmann (talkcontribs)

Dear Gamlie Fishkin I can strongly support what you say: The new policy is a big discrimination of small languages and is completely unacceptable it is against the principles of human rights and lacks of respect of small cultures! ~~~~

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

This feature will make these languages more prominent. Now languages of Russia, such as Tatar, Bashkir and Udmurt, will be shown prominently to people who connect from Russia. Earlier, you had to look for them in a list of more than 100 languages. Same for Saami—it will be shown prominently to people who connect from Norway or Finland.

DidiWeidmann (talkcontribs)

It gives the impression that this new feature is especially and expressly designed with the intention to discriminate several languages like Esperanto or Yiddish! There was now real need for such a system – I ask to restore the old System!

Eugrus (talkcontribs)

This is simply not true. The minor languages of Russia are not shown to me in the compact list on the Russian Wikipedia. What is being shown are just the wikis I use frequently. See w:ru:Земля, for instance, which has interwikis in a dozen of minor languages of Russia, but none are shown.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

@Eugrus, from which country are you connecting?

Which languages do you see? If you see languages that you use frequently, then it works as it is supposed to. Languages that you use frequently are probably the languages that you need the most. Languages of your country are shown if languages that you use frequently are not known, which will be true for all people the first time they see compact interlanguage links.

Gamliel Fishkin (talkcontribs)

So, human beings outside of Russia will think that the Tatar language does not exist, etc. It is just a discrimination. As a final result of such a discrimination, almost any human being in the world will think, that there in the world only two languages do exist: his or her native language and English.

Amire80 (talkcontribs)

The user interface shows a list of languages that is customized for every user and helps people find information in their language. In articles with a lot of languages the list will have nine languages, and not two, and there will a button that says "X more languages", where X is the number.

Holder (talk