Talk:Winter

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Languages and meta-info in smaller screens

Qgil started this topic
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Qgil talk

I like a lot the right column with the language and meta-info links. I also like the fact that it goes away if/when the screen is smaller (and if it's small enough the left column goes away as well, very cool). However, where can the user of smaller screens find the vanished content? Maybe we could have a slider button in the edges allowing the user to pull that content?

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Editor Feedback

Kangaroopower started this topic
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Kangaroopower talk

IMO, the edit toolbar (Bold, Italics, Underline) should be underneath the toolbar that has read, edit, history, etc. on it because it doesn't make sense for something thats secondary to a certain function on one toolbar (in this case edit), to be above the original toolbar.

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About Typography refresh (Snowflakes)

Wolf359borg started this topic
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Wolf359borg talk

I am Japanese Wiki user. Is it possible to change Snowflakes module of "Typography Refresh" every language? Setting of "font-family: Georgia, serif" causes some problems for a non-Latin user. See Talk:Typography refresh/Archive 4#Languages problems.

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margins etc.

62.216.204.25 started this topic and there was one other participant
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62.216.204.25 talk

Hi.

   I suggest to use margins in percentage, not fix, so you get more air, esp. on bigger screens. And don't use centered tags in the sidebar. I mean don't use it anywhere. 
   Provide larger vertical top-margins in the sidebar for headlines, so you get your structure more visible.

And you should keep the text together with a max-width of the main-div, so you get no more than about 75 letters in one line. This is for readability reasons.

  Don' be afraid of "wasting" space. Let it breathe!

Thx for reading.

Verdy p talk

About 75-80 letters per line is about 36-40em with most common fonts (excluding those in narrow and wide styles or old legacy fonts with incorrect metrics made for some South-East Asian Indic scripts or decorative designs).

Ideally all pages should avoid creating text columns narrower than 12em or larger than 50em (when it includes left or right floating elements which should be about 240px wide for images and never more than 50% of the page width between margins).

Ideally,pages should still be able to adapt themselves to wide screens (to avoid wasting it) by using columns. But if multicolumns are used, the paragraphs should not exceed about 40 lines and with colmun width set to 36em for about 75 letters and 2 columns, this means blocks of text about 6000 letters; (avoid this, you shold create subsections) ; with list of simple names (not sentences) such as toponyms, the ideal column width is about 18em, and you should avoid groupng in the same section two lists that exeed about 200 items.

Once the width of columns is determined, it remains easy to adjist the side margins to "auto" (instead of 0).

But be careful: these widths in ems are only valid for the main content (or for smaller texts sch as lists of referneces). Heading generally use bigger fonts and should continue spanning across text columns for heading levels 1 to 3 by putting them outside the multilcumn layout in a general page content of about 50em.

Don't set excessive margins and avoid builing portals with too many columns that can't fit (it is really hard to fit more than 2 columns or just 1 columns wth elements floating only on side; don't use floatting elements on both sides ! unless they are thumnailed images each with width lower than 150px).

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General feedback, a bug, and a complaint about an icon

Sven Manguard started this topic and there was one other participant
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Sven Manguard talk

Hey, awesome to see how this is coming along.

I'm torn about putting all of the infoboxes off to the right. On the on hand, it seems useful as a way of getting information to people efficiently. On the other hand, having a thin link bar on the left and a much thicker infobox bar on the right throws the balance of the page off, and makes all of the text and images feel kind of squished in the center. As was said below, a way to collapse that bar (and have the text spread back out into that space) would be nice. I think it should default to having the bar open each time you go to a page, though (i.e. if I go to autumn, collapse the bar, go to summer, and then go back to autumn, the bar should be expanded again).

I went to the page en:And Yet It Moves, and noticed that the Reception template (the one that details the review scores) has been moved to the right. The word "Reception", however, is still where the template was originally, and is surrounded by a whitespace gap. This might be because that word is part of the trigger to collapse the table down.

On the plus side, I actually went to that page to check on how Winter handled en:Template:multiple image, and it looks awesome. It was rapidly becoming one of my favorite toys before, and Winter will only make me want to use it more.

Lastly, I wanted to suggest that you use a circle with a plus in it, instead of a star, for indicating Good Articles in the box up at the top of the right bar (And Yet It Moves has one). Stars are the domain of Featured content (articles, pictures, portals, and topics), and I'd rather not use them for Good Articles because there can be a pretty sizable quality gap between GAs and FAs.

Jorm (WMF) talk

Sven Manguard: The icon for "Good" articles is only the star because I didn't have time to create a new one. I just cloned the code that handles "Featured". We'll have different icons.

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Echo's icon and number are misaligned

Negative24 started this topic and there were 2 other participants
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Negative24 talk

It seems the bell icon (for Echo) and the number that shows the number of new messages are misaligned with each other. I'm running on Chrome OS 35 with a 1024x600 display. Thanks.

Sven Manguard talk

Confirmed on Firefox with a 1600x900 display. http://prntscr.com/44x44f

Jorm (WMF) talk

Thanks! I'll see about getting a fix for this in soonish.

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Why not taking existing concepts from designers?

Julian Claus started this topic and there were 2 other participants
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Julian Claus talk

It may be a little awkward but why not take finished concepts from professional designers with measurable feedback like these:

http://wikipedia.gkvasnikov.com/ http://www.wikipediaredefined.com/

Jorm (WMF) talk

Julian Claus: Pretty much what Ckoerner said below. For instance, both the examples you posted downplay or even ignore the multi-lingual facet of the site, which is arguably its most important feature.

Ckoerner talk

I can't speak for WMF, but as someone who has designed systems, it's never as easy do approach it from the outside (like these designers have) without multiple, deep, conversations with those who manage a product. In my experience it's more beneficial (faster, better end result, more thought out in edge cases) to have a dedicated team - with years of experience with the 'product' - learning, developing, and evolving the interface and experiences.

I could show an automaker a great concept for a car, with all the features I'd love, but then we'd end up with The Homer.

Jorm (WMF) talk

There's another aspect to this, by the way: most of those redesigns do not include licensing that would allow us to reuse the ideas.

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Widescreen

Magnus Manske started this topic
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Magnus Manske talk

Played with CSS on a wide screen, and for >1600px, this makes a reasonable hack of a ~960px central column: $('#container').css({'max-width':'1550px','margin-left':'auto','margin-right':'auto'})

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I hate the logo in the top left corner

Whatamidoing (WMF) started this topic and there was one other participant
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Whatamidoing (WMF) talk

When I scroll down, the Wikipedia globe covers up what I want to read. If you're going to keep something for "branding" (which is IMO unnecessary) then it needs to be much smaller and maybe horizontal (perhaps just the "Wikipedia" text?). Floating logos shouldn't interfere with viewing content.

Jorm (WMF) talk

Whatamidoing (WMF): That is not the behavior that should happen. The logo should literally turn only to the wordmark.

Can I get a screenshot?

Whatamidoing (WMF) talk

Jorm (WMF): Sadly, no: I thought about grabbing one last night, and then decided that since it was intentional, it would be unnecessary. (I should know better.) However, if you check your e-mail, you'll see a related screenshot.

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Screen width

CaptainPedge started this topic and there were 2 other participants
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CaptainPedge talk

http://i.imgur.com/8TkkQLP.png - Need I say more?

Jorm (WMF) talk

CaptainPedge: I just now - like, less than 5 minutes ago - uploaded a fix for that. Shift-refresh and you should see it.

CaptainPedge talk

Jorm (WMF): Fair enough :)

What about the whitespace underneath the right hand sidebar?

Jorm (WMF) talk

CaptainPedge: I'll have to take a look. I'm not seeing it at my current configuration.

CaptainPedge talk

Jorm (WMF): http://i.imgur.com/hLaaZp0.png

Jorm (WMF) talk

CaptainPedge: OH! That is actually intended. It will (eventually) start being filled with other tools and methods for surfacing additional content related to the article you're viewing, plus additional mechanisms for contribution.

I just haven't written them or faked them up yet.

Things like gallery browsers, or discussion stubs, or a list of popular quotations, or whatever.

CaptainPedge talk

Jorm (WMF): 2 things:

1. Is the plan to expand the body of the article underneath the sidebar, like the current design expands beneath the infobox, or is the whitespace there to stay?

2. Its amazing that you're being this responsive and it is very much appreciated :)

Jorm (WMF) talk

CaptainPedge: Ideally, we'd like to fill it with useful things, and we'd also like to move away from a lot of the current re-flow problems the current layouts encounter. If you look at the current site, there are sometimes places where huge swaths of "null content" exist that, by virtue of the content engine's design, are not usable. Consider the space next to most Tables of Contents.

And thanks for your appreciation! Getting comments is how I find bugs in the design, and the best way to get them is to be responsive. I'm locked out of the Boingboing thread, though, so that sucks.

CaptainPedge talk

Jorm (WMF): I just feel that on a long article, youre just gonna end up with a long column of whitespace that could be used. Oh one more thing, I don't know if this is just me, or if it's something the bothers other people. but I prefer when everything on the page scrolls the same way, and you don't end up with like top-bars that hang off the top of the window (not that it's happening here, but I just thought I should make the point) In my experience those sorts of thing only end up bugging out in some way and screwing the whole thing up.

Ckoerner talk

CaptainPedge: Winter does look a lot better when looking at a specific article, like say Scotland as an example. That right bar doesn't appear as awkward.

Jorm (WMF) That might be something to think about when sharing Winter with more people - don't lead with the Main Page or other visually 'empty' pages as examples. It wasn't until I dug into a few pages that I figured out what was going on.

CaptainPedge talk

Ckoerner: Sorry, I'm still not buying it. Look at http://unicorn.wmflabs.org/winter/index.html?page=Les_Mis%C3%A9rables_(musical) compared to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Mis%C3%A9rables_(musical). As soon as you get past the info box at the top the rest of the text flows into the space below, filling the screen. On the new proposal, there's nothing there, just wasted space, requiring me to scroll further to get to the bottom of the page, and squashing tables to comedy levels.

Ckoerner talk

CaptainPedge: Good example!

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