Hi SGrabarczuk,
While using the new skin on Dutch Wiktionary (nl.wiktionary.org) I noticed it changes the name of the project from WikiWoordenboek into Wiktionary. The perceived domination of English is for some a recurring source of criticism on WMF initiatives. I expect the acceptance of a new skin will benefit from showing the correct text as early as possible. As the French Wiktionary is showing Wiktionnaire I suppose this can be done, but I don't know how.
Hello. I understand you, I'm not an English native speaker myself. In this case, it's only because the team hasn't made all the logos for all wikis yet. We will definitely do that before we change the default skin on more wikis.
Thanks for the reply. I guessed this would be solved before making it the default skin. But I would like to generate some enthusiasm for that change and having the correct name show up would be helpful in this stage already. Could we speed things up if I created the adapted logo text myself?
If you think it's possible, we can even make the skin default sooner, and then we'd provide the logo. If you only prefer to make the logo, here's the instruction. It requires some purely technical things I'm not an expert at, so if you have any questions, you'll need to wait until I get answers from my team mates.
Your message in our Village Pump did not say anything about using the correct logo. Changing the name of a project as part of a new skin is clearly unacceptable. When our present logo was designed, the available width put a real constraint on the legibility, and some time was needed to find the optimal solution.
So I strongly suggest you add an adapted logo to the test version before deploying it. If you want to stick to Oct. 3rd for deployment, it would be reasonable for you to show the adapted logo on Sept. 27th and provide for the possibility to make improvements in the period before deployment. If this proves too difficult, I suggest you state the date on which the new logo will be part of the test version and allow for 4 weeks time to react before deploying.
Although I do expect some long-time users preferring the old skin, after using the new skin for 3 months myself I'm quite happy with the improvements. So I hope my first suggestion will be feasible. This is also the reason for this message instead of asking for a later deployment right away.
Hi. Thanks for the message. I'm sorry that in the message, I didn't include information on the logo. You are absolutely right. Of course we will create it before making the change. I've been told that a few of my colleagues would sit down together and have a few-hour session of creating all the logos needed.
Apart from that, I'm happy that you appreciate the new skin. I'll let my team know about your suggestion.
Is there somewhere we can see what the WikiWoordenboek logo is going to look like yet? Or is it safer to request more time to discuss the change? We are in no hurry to change the default skin.
I suspect the logos aren't public yet. Also, since other things are moving, we have more flexibility than we thought. Today, our team decided that next week, we wouldn't make the change for the largest wikis among those which received the message. Dutch Wiktionary is among these wikis. So - we have time! :)
That's great! Is it okay if I mention this extension in our De kroeg (Village Pump) or are you planning a general notification to the wikis concerned?
I just got an email from the Dutch Wikimedia chapter (I'm also moderator of nl.wikimedia.org). They have a similar request as WikiWoordenboek: to view the new version of the logo before the skin becomes the default one. Even though this is a really small wiki, would it be possible to add them to the list of wikis that will be changed later on? I have given them an explanation why I think the new skin is an improvement, and I don't think they have any other objections. If it's better to use the button in your message, I can of course do so.
It's fine, we can have the discussion here. Thank you for being our advocate here! I'll let the team know and get back to you.
Hello, SGrabarczuk.
Recently you posted a message on the general discussion page (fy:) of the Western Frisian Wikipedia (fywiki) about the new Vector 2022 skin becoming the default there in the week of October 3rd. I pinged you last Saturday to ask a question about that, but I'm starting to think you didn't get the message. So I'll ask again here.
I tried the new skin out and I'm not a fan. I see some advantages but a lot more disadvantages. So here's my question: you say we can get more time to discuss the changes, but is there an actual choice here between "Yes, let's do it" en "No, this is not for us so we're going to opt out and keep the old skin on our Wikipedia"? Because if we can't refuse the new skin, then there really is no sense in discussing things, is there? ~~~~
Hello! Thanks for writing to me here. Indeed, somehow, I didn't get the ping, so your message here helped. I'll answer on fywiki and we'll have the discussion there, ok?
:ja:利用者:SGrabarczuk (WMF)の案内に従って:ja:利用者‐会話:SGrabarczuk (WMF)に要望を書きましたが、どうも読んでおられないようなのでこちらに書きます。あなたは:ja:Wikipedia:井戸端 をお読みでしょうか。Vecor (2022)については表示の問題が発生していてIPユーザーから苦情が寄せられています。あなたはこの問題はVector (2022)の技術的問題ではなく他の個所の問題だとお考えなのかもしれませんが、開発者チームの中の役割分担がどのようになっているかは、一般の利用者には関係ありません。あなたの権限でとりあえずデフォールトのスキンを元のVector (2010)に戻すことはできるはずなので戻してください。その権限がないのなら、何らかの改善提案を:ja:Wikipedia:井戸端 にお書きください。なお、その際はGOOGLE翻訳による日本語訳をお付けください。DEEPLは権利問題が発生するので使わないでください。-: ja: User: Follow the guidance of SGrabarczuk (WMF): ja: User-Conversation: I wrote a request to SGrabarczuk (WMF), but I can't seem to read it, so I will write it here. Have you read: ja: Wikipedia: Well Edge? IP users have complained about Vecor (2022) due to display issues. You might think that this issue isn't a technical issue in Vector (2022), but something else, but what the division of roles within the developer team is is for general use. It doesn't matter who you are. You should be able to revert the default skin to the original Vector (2010) for the time being with your privileges, so please do so. If you don't have that authority, please write any suggestions for improvement at: ja: Wikipedia: Idobata. In that case, please attach a Japanese translation by GOOGLE translation. Do not use DEEPL as it will cause rights issues. --~~~~-~~~~
Feedback for the discussion tomorrow:
Actually, that is the first change, I think I might not get used to and which makes my work harder. I suppose, this function should be deployed with the complete rework of the UI at the earliest. When the sidemenu has a different style (e. g. collapse the sections "Support", "Development", "Mediawiki.org", "Tools", "Export" by default) it would probably be less of a problem. Best regards, HirnSpuk
I just would like to give you feedback on the new TOC in the improved desktop skin. Unfortunately the TOC now is so wide it leaves rather little space for the main text area. I'd prefer a TOC that I can open and close from the fixed top bar, as I can do with the sidebar menu. Could you please think again about the new design and usability? Thanks!
What was reverted in this diff does not seem to me to be a personal attack, but it was reverted on those grounds. Please explain. DCDuring (talk) 03:43, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
On MediaWiki.org, there's Code of Conduct in force. The words "despise and abhor all of you" are not collaborative or respectful, and are a personal attack, I think.
I see you've read the thread titled Message from the Code of Conduct Committee. The Committee wrote about the comment: "it personally attacks others (namely, members of the Web team)".
You seem to be disagreeing with the Committee, too. I'd suggest to continue the discussion with them. I think this would be both in line with the procedures of this wiki and most effective for you to get this situation clarified.
I don't see it that way. It is a statement of feeling. I thought statements of feelings are good in general, even when the feelings are negative. You might consider carefully avoiding overuse of the CoC to suppress expression of strongly felt opposition. If you were to take a managerial perspective, the strong expression of negative feelings is valuable information. Censoring (reverting etc.) merely inflames feelings. If this is how CoC is to be administered, I will oppose it and subvert it whenever possible. DCDuring (talk) 13:47, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for sharing your perspective. I'm of the opinion that the best recipient who should be at least informed about your comment is @TechConductCommittee.
I've thought more about this and would focus my comments to say that expressing hatred of a working group in an organization is probably not a personal attack. It may be an expression of hatred toward, for example, an oppressive power-holding group and how it habitually functions from behind barriers that make it unresponsive. Every time CoC is used as a cudgel this way, its legitimacy is undermined. It's not up to CoC to address this kind of concern as much as it is up to those who abuse CoC to correct their behavior. DCDuring (talk) 17:46, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
Hi, could you push sections for translation please? I wish we would inform updates for March 2022: pls see Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements/ja#2022年3月:TOC and thereafter in that page. That is a very inspiring writing, and a doorway to support the conversation/feedback giving/receiving on the subject. Thank you always for taking care of the internationalization, cheers, --
Of course! Thank you for the opportunity to contribute. This is a very exciting project indeed. Do call on me anytime! Cheers, ~~~~
Hi,@Floyd23, would you mind to check if translation tag T:195 and beyond put through for translation please? I am not able to see why those updates for Marh 2022 is available for translation yet. Am I missing something, or I see on te edit_history that Szimon has already assigned them for translation on 31 March, 2022. Cheers,
Apologies and a favor: please don't yet assume that I know how to quickly locate "T:195 and beyond" and other such bits. Need just a bit more guidance as to where the content requiring translation lives w/direct links and/or instructions. I will catch on quickly... Much appreciated.
Hi, please regard to my discussion-page and supply me with a deadline. I started, but I'm not sure, when I'm able to finish. I would have right now, but I don't understand "We have also flipped the order of the page title bar and page toolbar/tab-bar". What is the "page title bar", the "page toolbar" and the "tab-bar"? I wasn't able to locate objects, that where flipped and could be meant by this description. Best regards, HirnSpuk
Hello! I've just added one question to the form. Would you be able to finish within the next 3-4 days?
"We have also flipped the order of the page title bar and page toolbar/tab-bar" - in Legacy Vector, page title is below "Read", "Edit", etc. In the prototype, it's above. This is what this sentence means.
There is a reusable template, see Template:Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements/Office hours announcement. Another template for updating variables are under construction.
Hi, @SGrabarczuk (WMF), kindly please somehow link or embed the call for the Zoom meeting on 29 March with existing page, ie Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements/Updates/Talk_to_Web&oldid=4853620 to? IMHO At the moment, the body text (first link herein) on that call for Zoom participation is not shown in ja language, only 3-4 parts assigned with trans tags.
Wonder maybe the assigned page be automatically updated when you deliver them to local wikis? A long awaited update, three cheers!
Thanks for your suggestion! I'll clarify this because now, it's very much in the making. I've decided to make a template for these announcements, and what you've noticed is only the variable part. Look at the source code. There's a template Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements/Office hours announcement where the rest of the announcement is available for translation.
Yey, @SGrabarczuk (WMF), you are a true explorer turning unmapped part into coding for translation tasks. Yes, I've dreamt about such template be invented, as such we word_processor age people are used to; those fixed body texts requiring small patch ups be reused with updated "variables".
That's distinguishing those translation tasks requiring human brain to its entirety IMHO, and you are opening doors for more translators to join the force, by grading tasks from easy to complicated. (:
Thank you a bunch, I'll work on the Office_hours_announcement under Reading/Web/Destop_improvements/ you kindly pointed me to. Cheers,
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