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Doug Weller (talkcontribs)

I don't think I could be the only one that thinks this shows this system is failing. Most of the highest rated articles are ones that are susceptible to ratings by fans, and the lowest look like the victims of politics.

This post was posted by Doug Weller, but signed as Dougweller.

He7d3r (talkcontribs)

FYI: There is an open bug (bugzilla:30334) requesting additional options for dashboard.

Reply to "Pages with highest/lowest ratings"
VanishedUser sfkdjljakldj (talkcontribs)

A single edit could change the accuracy of an article completely but the ratings remain unaltered, so what's the motive? If you want to encourage knowledgeable people to contribute then just say so.

Encouraging people to pass casual, unqualified judgement in this way will at best demonstrate the value of an article according to popular opinion, and for a reference work that could be counterproductive.

This post was posted by VanishedUser sfkdjljakldj, but signed as JoeMCMXLVII.

WhatamIdoing (talkcontribs)

Ratings expire after (any) 30 edits, so they do not remain "unaltered" forever.

A few editors have said they are offended that mere readers are being permitted to express an opinion on their work, but I can't actually see any of our regular editors screwing up an article just to get a higher rating from "casual, unqualified" readers. Can you?

VanishedUser sfkdjljakldj (talkcontribs)

I'm not offended by you or anyone else. I'm just someone who thinks the facility is irrelevant and for the reasons I stated.

I'll add that 30 edits can be a long time to display obsolete information.

This post was posted by VanishedUser sfkdjljakldj, but signed as JoeMCMXLVII.

WhatamIdoing (talkcontribs)

I agree that any set number of edits is a limited approach. Three edits might result in major changes; thirty edits might be nothing more than 15 pairs of vandalism and reversion. Furthermore, half the ratings might have been made while one of those 15 vandalized versions were up.

I don't agree that the tool is irrelevant to the broad goals of the WMF. I think it may prove to be far more effective at turning readers into editors than anything else we've tried. Passively reading "This page needs to be fixed" has not proven to be very effective. If you start with someone who is already thinking about the article and interacting with the page (by rating it), and then we've already got their attention when we say, "You know, you create an account—you could edit this article—you could try this out", and we've got their focus on the article's strengths and weaknesses.

Might it be irrelevant for experienced editors identifying articles that need work? Quite possibly, but nobody's ever promised that the ratings would be useful for that purpose. In fact, the devs have specifically said that's not a validated use of the tool.

Jason Quinn (talkcontribs)

WhatamIdoing, when were expiring rating introduced? Has the tool worked like that from the start? I only become aware of it recently so I was partly misunderstanding how it works.

WhatamIdoing (talkcontribs)

It's been described in the documentation since at least this spring, but I don't know exactly when the feature was first introduced.

He7d3r (talkcontribs)

See also this part of another thread.

Subfader (talkcontribs)

Don't make it too complicated. The only thing that matters is that anons who never edited an article can vote Justin Biber up and George W. Bush down.

VanishedUser sfkdjljakldj (talkcontribs)

Nicely put, Subfader.

This post was posted by VanishedUser sfkdjljakldj, but signed as JoeMCMXLVII.

174.61.248.93 (talkcontribs)

So out of the 3 million+ articles on en.wiki, Justin Bieber, George W. Bush and maybe 100 other high traffic articles could be considered "1 offs" because their survey results will be skewed by fanboys/haters. That is still an infinitesimally small fraction and even if these are high traffic articles, that doesn't diminish the potential usefulness that this tool can offer to the project across the board.

The editors who watch Bieber and GWB will not be making significant changes to those articles based on the AFT tool. However, the editors to articles like the 1984 Summer Olympics, Prince Edward Island, Piston valve, Aging of wine, Royal Scottish Academy, Bamboo, Australopithecus etc might be inclined to look more closely at those articles if they start receiving a pattern of low ratings in comparison to similar articles.

I think this is a key point that critics are missing when they try to bring up "crap" ratings on articles like Bieber and GWB. Articles like that make up a very, very small percentage of Wikipedia and they should not be held as a benchmark for how new tools or ideas are implemented on the project.

WhatamIdoing (talkcontribs)

"I think this is a key point that critics are missing when they try to bring up "crap" ratings on articles like Bieber and GWB."

I think the key point they're missing is that determining the true quality of the article is not a validated use of the tool. Experienced editors should be evaluating articles according to the English Wikipedia's extensive policies and guidelines, not according to the responses from recent readers. So far as I can tell, that's what our editors are actually doing. I haven't seen anyone yet say "I've got to totally re-write this Good Article, because some readers gave it a low rating!"

Subfader (talkcontribs)

Great how you accept the fail of the tool and how much you don't care that good articles stay 1/5 rated by abusers forever for every visitor since (as you pointed out) nobody would edit the article to change the rating (except WMF staff of course).

WhatamIdoing (talkcontribs)

I do not consider a disconnect between the reader's rating and the experienced editor's rating to be a failure of the tool.

I consider your insistence that reader and editor ratings much match to be a sign of your failure to read and understand the documentation for the tool, which explicitly says that low ratings from readers do not mean that there is any problem in the article.

VanishedUser sfkdjljakldj (talkcontribs)

I see a lot of negative feedback about the whole concept and I see a lot of nit-picking in response. You won't make a bad idea work by trying to discredit its critics.

This post was posted by VanishedUser sfkdjljakldj, but signed as JoeMCMXLVII.

174.61.248.93 (talkcontribs)

Well I am new to this discussion but here are the criticisms that I've seen.

1.) The community wasn't adequately consulted therefore it is bad
2.) The Bieber/GWB objection which, as noted above, is related to an infinitesimal percentage of articles
3.) Even though the aim of the tool is to get reader feedback, only Wikipedian editors should be allowed to use it
4.) The tool doesn't provide enough data to be useful to editors

The fourth criticism is the only one that really has meat to it but it is a multi-faceted issue. On one hand, there is a lack of understanding in how data research/surveys are conducted and the limitation of the "laziness principle". However, the tool can, indeed, be improved but that is the point behind studying the results of a launch--you can't see where to improve until you see how it is being used.

While all the criticisms are worth discussion (which is obviously being done here), I haven't yet seen a single criticism that is worth completely vetoing or shelving this project.

Is there something I missed?

VanishedUser sfkdjljakldj (talkcontribs)

I'll expand on your point number 4). A tool that does not provide sufficient data for editors is utterly useless.

And I didn't suggest that any one criticism should warrant vetoing the project. That's your defence to the various sweeping criticisms and it's irrelevant. What I am suggesting is that there is so much conceptual criticism and so little response of a worthwhile nature that the project seems like it's dead already but simply won't lie down.

This post was posted by VanishedUser sfkdjljakldj, but signed as JoeMCMXLVII.

174.61.248.93 (talkcontribs)

Yes I was summing up the various sweeping criticism in that posts.

But let's look at point 4. You state "A tool that does not provide sufficient data for editors is utterly useless."

Now as I said before that issue is multi-faceted mostly because the idea of "sufficient" and "useful" are subject. The tool already provides some data and, again as noted before, any knowledge of survey taking and market research can see immense value in the kind of data already being provided since it is formatted to show patterns of response.

Also, the idea at the moment is to provide data about what the readers think and then figure out how to make it useful to editors at larger. So while you may feel that it is not sufficient and useless now, the appropriate response is to make recommendations for improvement (which many have) and to give it time to see how the tool develops and improve. It is the then part in the equation that I have to say is surprising that a vocal few don't seem to want to wait for.

I mean the first computers were pretty "useless" oversize calculators. You can only imagine what would have happened if we shelved THAT idea so early on in the beginning under the idea that "A tool that does not provide sufficient data for users is utterly useless."

Subfader (talkcontribs)

Fair enough. About the collected data: I think the 4 criteria are ok and other data (like who voted / when / how "trustworthy" the user is) can be generated later. Dunno how much data is stored with each vote tho.

Still nobody replied how high the percantage of anon and 0 edit users is to experienced editors.

174.61.248.93 (talkcontribs)

I haven't seen a response to that question either but an ideal would probably be a much higher percentage of anon or low edit users since the tool is aimed to get more a reader's perspective then an editors perspective.

WhatamIdoing (talkcontribs)

The dataset (as explained in the documentation; did you read it?) differentiates between registered and unregistered users (a set that includes experienced editors who don't happen to be logged in at the time they rate the article), but it does not record the number of edits made by the editor (which may be zero for a registered account, and thousands for an IP editor).

He7d3r (talkcontribs)

Notice also that the number of edits made by an IP is not stored by MW on its database. So, that data is not available for AFT either, I think.

Crakkerjakk (talkcontribs)

I don't have the time to read this ENTIRE thread, but I have to say that I agree with some of the points that have been brought up here. As far as I can see the ratings are pretty much useless. I've seen some well written articles with good sources getting low ratings simply because 10-year-old girls don't like the character an actor plays on TV, or conversely, I've seen some stubby articles getting five stars from multiple raters simply because people loved an actor's work 50 years ago. Granted, this seems to apply more to the "celebrity" bio articles more than the "science" articles about nuclear power, etc, but I've noticed this seems to be a theme running throughout MANY celebrity bio pages and not limited to just Justin Bieber and George Bush. I'm not an "exepert", but it's painfully obvious people are simply using the ratings to vote on how they feel about the SUBJECT of an article and there's really no reflection whatsoever on the merits of the article itself. Not to mention the "highly knowledgeable" option is just a joke. I could dub myself "highly knowledgeable" about quantum physics, but it doesn't make it true. From what I have read of this thread, it looks like the ratings aren't being taken too seriously by anyone who matters, so I guess that's good news, but then what's the point of having the ratings at all? Just to trick a few new people into editing? It seems to me that anyone who would be tricked into believing the ratings are any indication of what an article needs would be the LAST people you'd want editing the article.

Subfader (talkcontribs)

On WP some WMF guy explained how AFT works and how to stop vandalism by fan / hate votes. It all makes sense now. --Subfader 19:11, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Crakkerjakk (talkcontribs)

Lol.. I have to admit I've been tempted to do that myself, but I decided not to based on principal. Not because it's "wrong", but because I made a decision when the tool first showed up (and obvious vandalism ratings started soon after) that I wouldn't vote on ANY article I'd had a significant hand in writing (aside from minor cleanup - correcting typos, redirecting backlinks, etc). I wanted to give the tool some time to see how I liked it, how it worked, etc (I honestly didn't have any opinion about it one way or the other when it was first implemented). If I was "rigging" the votes then I wouldn't be able to do that, so I decided I'd wait to see how things played out before I came here because I wanted to be able to be 100% impartial. What irks me about this page is how obnoxious a couple of the people here are - implying our hard work, observations and experiences are "infinitesimal" to the value of Wikipedia, etc. I think they know what they can do with their new "tool", so I won't even bother lowering myself to their level.

Subfader (talkcontribs)

Well, it is interesting to follow this project over months and seeing how the WMF people play boss is indeed very scary. I did follow the test phase of FlaggedRevs on German WP with much interest and actually they learned from it and took consequences. But AFT? Nothing. Instead, as you mentioned, they try to sell us this useless feature as the next big thing which WP cannot live without. And non-related people like critics and scientists who follow the development of WP have just another reason to turn the back on WP when they see that good articles are rated 1/5 by people (visitors don't know that haters and fan abuse the AFT and how easy it is to do so). I could continue forever why AFT is bad... I have not seen one advantage of AFT here yet. Someone link me to it please. I know the FAQ yeah but it reads like a fake review for an overprized tool nobody actually wants or needs.

Crakkerjakk (talkcontribs)

Exactly. It reminds me of what bugs me when editors will tag an article with a "biased" template without explaining why on the talk page (even well-meaning, well-respected editors will do this routinely). It casts a shadow over the ENTIRE article, and sends a flag to readers that there's something specious about the article as a whole (whether the average reader has personally found any problems with it, most readers will think - "well, it looks good, but there must be SOMETHING wrong with it"). And I don't want to hear this b#llcr@p about me whining just because I personally "disagree" with the voting results. I posted SEVERAL examples (taken from the dashboard page yesterday) of good articles that were rated "B-Class" or higher (presumably by people who actually KNOW something about Wikipedia's GA standards), but had mysteriously received the "lowest" ratings by casual "users", but this was summarily dismissed. I mean the Barack Obama article is CONSISTENTLY among the lowest rated articles on the dashboard almost EVERY SINGLE day i've looked, and that's a FEATURED article for Chrissakes.. It's like there are people here who are DETERMINED to bury their heads in the sand - no matter how many people report problems or how many examples we give they just keep telling us "it's infinitesimal". What they can't seem to wrap their little heads around is the fact that the Justin Bieber and Barack Obama articles are representative of THOUSANDS of articles that DON'T show up in the dashboard. I'm not pretending to be a mathematician, but it stands to reason - if half the articles voted lowest in the dashboard on any given day are celebrity pages with good to very good "quality scale" ratings then any reasonably sane person could (and would be naive not to) infer that 50% of all Wikipedia articles being rated are celeb pages getting the same meaningless votes that have no bearing on the merits of the article whatsoever. The dashboard is a random sampling of 50 articles that clearly shows the TYPES of articles that are most frequently vandalized. I just don't understand what the point is in creating a "Feedback" page, when it's obvious nobody here wants any honest feedback. If this was really about feedback, then our contributions wouldn't be dismissed as "infinitesimal" and we wouldn't be accused of simply coming here because of "sour grapes" about an article we've written receiving low ratings. That's simply not the case. In fact - I'd like to invite anyone who seems to love this tool so much to link to two articles they've written here (and not just articles they've added one or two sentences to, I mean an article they wrote from SCRATCH, or took-up as a "stub") so I can see their work and evaluate their Wikipedia "expertise" for myself. It can be any subject - anything - it doesn't matter - I'd LOVE to see what you've written, and I'll be more than happy to post two of my recent articles I've written as well. Anyone.....? Anyone.......?

WhatamIdoing (talkcontribs)

You still don't seem to get it: AFT is not trying to determine the True™ quality of the articles. AFT is collecting casual readers' personal opinions, and trying to turn some of them into brand-new editors.

Most casual readers are totally uninformed about what makes a decent encyclopedia article. Something with a lot of blue numbers that lead to personal blogs is often going to be called "well-referenced" by some of these readers. A stub that happens to contain the one tidbit of information they want is going to be called "complete" by some of these readers. But that's okay, because our smarter editors know that if they want information on the actual quality of the article, use the 1.0 team's assessment system. AFT is not trying to duplicate that.

Also, your assertion that people's opinions will be swayed by the ratings is either nonsensical or shows an appalling level of disrespect for the readers. If you read an entire article, and you think it's pretty good, and then you see that it's been rated low, are you so stupid and intellectually insecure as to chuck your whole opinion out the window and adopt the view on the page? And if you're not, then why do you keep saying that everyone else is?

Crakkerjakk (talkcontribs)

AFT is collecting casual readers' personal opinions, and trying to turn some of them into brand-new editors. Most casual readers are totally uninformed about what makes a decent encyclopedia article. If you read an entire article, and you think it's pretty good, and then you see that it's been rated low, are you so stupid and intellectually insecure as to chuck your whole opinion out the window and adopt the view on the page? And if you're not, then why do you keep saying that everyone else is?

I couldn't have said it better myself. Once again you've made my point for me. What exactly is the point of a ratings system that lures only the most "stupid and intellectually insecure" readers into editing? Anyone who is smart enough (and knowledgeable enough about Wikipedia's policies) to know what an article does and does not need isn't going to pay any attention to this useless tool. So what's the point of it??

By the way, I see there are no takers among the people on here who keep defending this tool to post a link to a single article you've actually written. I think that speaks volumes about the "expertise" behind the logic defending this tool. Know-it-all "editors" who've never actually written a single article.

174.61.248.93 (talkcontribs)

I couldn't have said it better myself. Once again you've made my point for me. What exactly is the point of a ratings system that lures only the most "stupid and intellectually insecure" readers into editing?

No where do I see WhatAmIdoing describe readers as stupid and intellectually insecure. Rather, she was asking if YOU believe that they are and would formulate their own personal opinion on an article and then chuck that opinion out the window because they saw a low rating.

Should we use this reply above as affirmation that you do, indeed, hold the opinions and capabilities of Wikipedia's readers in such low esteem?

Just as an FYI, Common Sense:101, any producer who makes a product (even a free online encyclopedia) and doesn't value or seek the opinions of its consumers will not have the most promising of futures with people continuing to use said product.

Subfader (talkcontribs)

I won't get down to your level and reply to that nonsense.

174.61.248.93 (talkcontribs)

So is that the equivalent of "I can't defend my point so I'm going to take my ball and go home"?

Which level of discourse are you having issues with?

Me asking Crakkerjakk if that characterization of readers accurately described his/her view of them?

Or me point out the common sense truth in business/life that any producers who ignores/doesn't see the views of the consumers using their product/services is not going to be in good shape for long?

Crakkerjakk (talkcontribs)

WhatamIdoing has CLEARLY stated the purpose of the tool is to get new editors interested in editing, and yet he/she turned right around and basically admitted that only an idiot would pay any attention to the ratings. Result = Only an idiot will be lured into editing by this tool. I'm just following his/her own logic.

Once again, you're having trouble reading, so I'll try and spell it out for you one more time. I thought asking for ratings/feedback from readers was a GREAT idea when the tool first showed up. However, what I'm not interested in is whether people like Justin Bieber's new girlfriend or not. That's what these numbers give us on a VAST number of articles (sorry, you still haven't PROVEN this little 1% statistic you seem to have pulled out of your @$$.

WhatamIdoing (talkcontribs)

No, Crakkerjakk, you are lying about what I said.

Many people might choose to rate articles.

Only an idiot or insecure person would (1) think "Great article" after reading it, (2) look at the accumulated ratings and see that they're low, and then (3) decide "I guess I was wrong; it must be a bad article, because everybody else hates it".

This is the process you say happens all the time. That is the only possible mechanism by which the accumulated ratings can harm readers' perceptions of the articles you write.

It is my belief that the readers do not have this problem: It is my belief that readers do not radically change their perception of an article based on other people's ratings. It is therefore my belief that the tool is not recruiting readers with this problem.

174.61.248.93 (talkcontribs)

LOL...WhatamIdoing, admirable effort but Crakkerjakk's argument has been exposed so much with him pushed in a corner that his only retort is going to be "But NO! You can't REEEEEAAAAAAADDDDD!" ;)

Or he may try to mix thing up and drag my mythical alcoholism over to you and call you a drunkard :P Stay tune.

Crakkerjakk (talkcontribs)

Yeah, right.. I, and the landslide of other editors reporting the same problems here, have ALL been "backed into a corner" by the two of you. Keep on trying to convince yourself. Unfortunately for you - Two people repeating the same old desperate excuses dozens of times doesn't outweigh the posts from dozens of people complaining about the numerous problems with the tool.

FYI - If you actually HAD read my posts, you would have KNOWN what I'd said the FIRST time and I wouldn't NEED to keep pointing out your obvious deficiencies. But seriously though, nobody wants a creepy resident wino lurking on this board just waiting to troll every single person who posts. The first step is admitting you have a problem. I suggest you get some serious help.

Creepy Resident Wino (talkcontribs)

I know I said I wanted to avoid creating another Wikimedia account but I was just too charmed by that moniker Crakkerjakk!

Yeah, yeah, I know this was your go-to ad hominem and you seemed to be having fun with the flaming, name calling and incivility but the name was just too cute!

Now this is the AFT talk page and I'm still very willing to have a civil discussion about how the tool and dashboard can be improved.

But I do have to give you due props for the witty nickname. It got me to bite the bullet and finally create an account here :)

Crakkerjakk (talkcontribs)

I'm sorry if your own twisted logic has backfired, but if anyone is "lying", it's you. You've mentioned at LEAST a hundred times here that this tool is WONDERFUL because new users will view the ratings and will be magically "inspired" to edit the articles that the tool indicates are in such desperate need of their help. You've also stated that only an idiot would pay any attention to the tool's results. The only logical conclusion is that only an idiot would be inspired to edit because of this tool. Now you're changing your logic to say - "the VAST MAJORITY of new editors will be smart enough to disregard the tool". Ok, fine - let's say that's true - Then this now new and improved "logic" of yours only proves how useless the tool is.

Getting back to the subject of what I was saying originally about users being "misled" by editors arbitrarily tagging a page with "bias" templates (with absolutely NO explanation) and/or by viewing this ratings tool. I admit I didn't expand on my point enough, so I'll try and explain myself better..

Let's take the Barack Obama article as an example (I know everyone is sick hearing about the Obama page, but it's just for the purpose of an example). It's a featured article. Now I would say I know about as much as the AVERAGE American about the man. No more, no less, just AVERAGE. I have a pretty good idea about the man over the last 3 years, but for the first 40-something years of his life, I'm most definitely NOT anything CLOSE to an "expert". He seems like a nice enough guy, I don't have anything against him personally, but I just haven't spent all my time researching the man's life (nor do I care to). So I come to the article, I read the entire thing, and then I'm asked to "rate" the article on FOUR criteria. Again, I'd say I have just about the "average" American's knowledge about the man. I would say I'm COMPLETELY unqualified to vote on three of the four criteria. First question, "Trustworthiness": (which is basically asking if the sources are "reliable". I can honestly say I haven't the faintest idea. I mean checking/verifying the 300+ notes cited on the page would be the equivalent of reading an entire BOOK about him, and that's not even counting the books the article cites as references. I'm not (nor is the "average" reader) going to sit there and check EVERY SINGLE source to judge the article's "trustworthiness". If I wanted to spend WEEKS reading stacks of books about the man I wouldn't be visiting Wikipedia to look him up. Next question, "Objectivity": yet ANOTHER question I, as an "average" reader, would be COMPLETELY unqualified to judge unless I checked every single one of the 300+ sources/references cited on the page. I mean aside from some GLARING bias, how would I know if it's "objective" unless I read EVERY SINGLE SOURCE the article cites to compare the article to??? Next question, "Completeness": Once again, how the hell do I know if it's "complete"??? Aside from some HUGE omission, I would have to spend WEEKS checking EVERY SINGLE source/reference to know if something I thought was important was left out. The ONE criteria I'd say I'm reasonably qualified to judge is how "Well-written" the Barack Obama article is.. Now, as a Wikipedia editor, I know it's reasonable to believe what I read on the Barack Obama article is true/fair/complete because: #1 - It's a FEATURED Article which means I can reasonably expect that all the claims and sources to back them up have been thoroughly vetted. #2 - The page is LOCKED from "casual" (even possibly well-meaning) editors who know NOTHING about Wikipedia's criteria. and #3 - There are a THOUSAND trusted Editors watching the page every minute like hawks. All indicators which the "average" reader most likely knows nothing about.

This all leads into what I was talking about before - If someone were to tag a "bias" template on the Barack Obama page (and there wasn't a "featured" star on the page, which I, being an experienced enough editor, KNOW Wikipedia does NOT hand out lightly), then YES, I would probably think to myself even BEFORE reading the article - "Wow, this "bias" template has been her for six months, so I better take EVERYTHING I read here with a grain of salt". I'm not even close to being an "expert" on Barack Obama, so I wouldn't have any way to judge first-hand unless I decided to become an "expert" and devote the next six months of my life to researching his life story. It definitely makes the "average" person question the "trustworthiness", "objectivity", and "completeness" of what they read. The exact same thing applies to this tool - Yes, experienced Wikipedia editors (who aren't in denial) know about the disproportionately high number of fan/hate votes the tool is recording across THOUSANDS of pages, but it may very well not even cross the "average" reader's mind that 90% of the low votes are from 14-year-old nazi skinheads who hate Obama and haven't even READ the article. Unless someone is an "expert" on the subject of an article they're reading (although, I don't know why anyone would be reading a Wikipedia article they already knew EVERYTHING about), they're just an average person, they're NOT going sit there and check out 50, or 100, or 300 sources on a page (many of which are two or three or four pages long EACH). Many readers are just going to look at the fan/hate ratings and assume that SOMETHING must be wrong. This doesn't necessarily mean a person is an idiot. It just means that the average reader isn't going to do the HOURS, or DAYS, or WEEKS of research to verify all the sources. Unless a person is an "expert" about the ratings tool AND the subject of the article, this fan/hate tool has the very REAL potential to make it seem like there's something specious about the entire article, no matter HOW good it actually is on the quality scale. Of course I have no proof how that will affect anyone who has been tricked into editing as a result of viewing this tool, but my point was about how the average READER thinks of Wikipedia after they READ a page. Viewing the tool, they may disregard very GOOD information as "myth", or take an article filled with lies and inaccuracies as being COMPLETELY trustworthy, unbiased and complete. Aside from being useless in the attempt to lure even remotely "qualified" editors (as your own logic has concluded), my LARGER point was that it has the potential to be HIGHLY misleading to the READERS with regards to how they should evaluate the accuracy of an article. If the purpose of the tool is to get people to take Wikipedia more seriously, I'd say it's MUCH more likely to have the exact OPPOSITE effect.

WhatamIdoing (talkcontribs)

I encourage you to look at every single comment I've made, and let me know if you find any comment that says I think very many readers will "view the ratings". I believe you will find several indicating my belief that the vast majority of readers will not view the ratings.

This is one of the laws of the web: every click loses a substantial percentage of the audience. Most readers will never click through to view the ratings. The people who look at the ratings are editors like you. The vast majority of readers will not be "misled" by the ratings, because readers will not ever bother to even look at the ratings.

Subfader (talkcontribs)

AFT is collecting casual readers' personal opinions...
No, it's collecting abusive fake / fan / hate votes by logged out spammers and people who misunderrstand the tool. Nothing else. Trends of these over time may be interesting but do not add any value to WP content.


...and trying to turn some of them into brand-new editors.
Trying to turn abusers into editors is a nice goal but pure waste of time.


If you read an entire article, and you think it's pretty good, and then you see that it's been rated low, are you so stupid and intellectually insecure as to chuck your whole opinion out the window and adopt the view on the page?
No, I would think the rating is bad or was abused by questionable people. I maybe would wonder why the responsible people do not improve the rating tool to avoid such. Surely I would wonder what the goals of the tool actually are if fake / fan / hate votes by anonymous users is obviously accepted. I then may read the FAQ and find out that AFT has no purpose except development timelines of abusive votes becoming "interesting". Maybe I would end up on this epic feedback page and find out that all of my observed disadvantages and the uselessness of this tool have been reported here in full detail with lots of suggestions how to improve it but everythings has been greatfully ignored by the officials. I would surely be surprised how officials interact with feedback reporters and try to silence them in order to push AFT.
But you're right, I would not edit any article.


...are you so stupid and intellectually insecure...
I've read such personal attacks so often by you now, I wonder if YOU are. Are you working for WMF? I hope not.


Most casual readers are totally uninformed about what makes a decent encyclopedia article
So let them rate the quality of encyclopedia articles!

Crakkerjakk (talkcontribs)

Most casual readers are totally uninformed about what makes a decent encyclopedia article
So let them rate the quality of encyclopedia articles!

Better yet - Let's use this as a way to get them to EDIT it!!

I think it's been made abundantly clear the level of intellect we're dealing with here. They've basically admitted they've never written a single Wikiepdia article and their desperately flawed logic defending the tool shows they don't know the first thing about how to improve the encyclopedia. It's been amusing, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to stop wasting my time expecting to have an intelligent discussion here, but I WILL be taking the matter to the appropriate people to report the obvious problems EVERYONE else who has come here has reported with this beloved tool.

174.61.248.93 (talkcontribs)

I think it's been made abundantly clear the level of intellect we're dealing with here. They've basically admitted they've never written a single Wikiepdia article and their desperately flawed logic defending the tool shows they don't know the first thing about how to improve the encyclopedia.

I know it is frustrating when other editors don't accept your viewpoint prima facie and actually ask you to extend your logic beyond the small scope that you want to deal with. It is tough when people look behind the curtain and question while we should limit our focus and attention to only <1% of the screen and ignore the colossal mountain of OTHER articles, OTHER experiences and OTHER viewpoints when most of your argument is based on them only seeing what you want them to see.

But it is healthy to have civil discourse, though truthfully, it becomes increasingly less civil when folks start dismissing the "intellectual level" of people who simply disagree with them and start assuming omniscience over their editing history and experience.

Crakkerjakk (talkcontribs)

It is healthy to have civil discourse, though truthfully, it becomes increasingly less civil when folks start dismissing the "intellectual level" of people who simply disagree with them and start assuming omniscience over their editing history and experience.

Right back atcha. I couldn't have said it better myself. Try taking some of your own advice, and we wouldn't have the problems we see on this page.

I don't have a problem with editors who feel the tool is working in the areas of Wikipedia they're most experienced in. I RESPECT their work, and would NEVER tell someone their experience was "infinitesimal". I've already stated that I'm sure the tool DOES work on many types of articles that are far less likely to be vandalized. However, by the clear statistics - those types of articles only make up about HALF of the encyclopeida's daily traffic as a whole (not very good averages).

I know you're still clinging to this 1% myth you've been desperately trying to perpetuate, but (short of cataloging all 3 million + articles) the BEST evidence we have is the dashboard and, I'm sorry, your absurd assumption that the articles showing up in the dashboard are the ONLY ones experiencing this HUGE problem isn't holding water with anyone else here (except WhatamIdoing).

The only thing that "frustrates" me is seeing how many people were summarily dismissed when they posted the problems they were experiencing here. The difference is the average person will just leave when met with an obnoxious user, whereas I'm not inclined to be so readily dismissed as "infinitesimal". A little advice - when someone posts here, they don't need you, or anyone else, to "rate" the feedback they leave on the ratings tool. It's not necessary for you to leave a snotty comment on EVERY SINGLE criticism of the tool. You've made it clear you love this tool, the vast majority of people here disagree with you - DEAL WITH IT.

Jorm (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Seriously, guys: you all need to log off for a while, take a breath or fifty, and find a cat to pet or something.

This thread has clearly entered the "emotional flamewar" stage, and should just cool down.

He7d3r (talkcontribs)
"The only thing that "frustrates" me is seeing how many people were summarily dismissed when they posted the problems they were experiencing here."

Just make sure that while the problem are being discussed here (where people can provide arguments/evidence/personal opinions/etc to show why they agree/disagree with each other), each specific request is also posted on bugzilla, where the (technical details of a possibly) implementation can be discussed. On bugzilla the requests will have its priority set to help coordinate developer efforts and eventually be resolved as FIXED or WONTFIX (or something else) depending on their decisions after analysing both the technical requirements and the desirability of the feature being requested.

AFAIK, anything which is reported on bugzilla will eventually be considered by some developer and anything else (e.g. problems posted only on talk pages of some wiki) have little chance of being noticed during the development of MediaWiki and its extensions...

174.61.248.93 (talkcontribs)

"would NEVER tell someone their experience was "infinitesimal"."

Hey! What a coincidence! I would 'never tell someone their experience was infinitesimal either! :)

But since we're on the same page, let me give you some advice as someone who has walked this road before.

Even though you would never tell someone that their experience was infinitesimal, you do have to be careful when you are having a internet disagreement, especially if you are successfully countering their points. Because even though everything is written plainly in text and is saved in the history, when the other person starts losing their footing and feel like they're not making progress with their arguments, they're going to take whatever you said and then SAY that you called their experience infinitesimal and keep repeating that mantra, over and over again and pray that no one will actually read the exchange and see that other person is just blowing smoke. Now, granted, given the "laziness principle" of humanity, that is not a crazy bet to make.

Yes, I know you can point out to them (repeatedly) how you never called them, their experience, their observations or anything else beyond a category of articles as "infinitesimal" but, again as someone who has went through this pony show, it probably won't help because at this point, strawmen and misrepresentations of the other side is all they got going for them.

So to wrap up. Good for you! It is important to maintain civility in discourse and not belittle the contribution of other editors by calling their experience "infinitesimal" or other ad hominem attack but I just want you to be prepared for when people still try fabricate their own ad hominem by blatantly and repeatedly misrepresenting what you said. It's tough. It's frustrating. But stay the good course and not sink to their level of grasping straws.

Though, admittedly, it doesn't hurt to let out a little steam via sarcasm but stay above the belt with more irony and understatement than jibes.

174.61.248.93 (talkcontribs)

AFT is collecting casual readers' personal opinions... No, it's collecting abusive fake / fan / hate votes by logged out spammers and people who misunderrstand the tool.

For <1% of Wikipedia's 3 million+ English articles.

Interestingly, according to w:en:Maternal_death, <1% of women in the developed world die during pregnancy. Small but still an unfortunate number, yet, I'm not sure you would find many advocates saying that we need to get rid of that whole "Getting pregnant/having babies" things based on the unfortunate outcome affecting <1% of the cases.

============ Most casual readers are totally uninformed about what makes a decent encyclopedia article So let them rate the quality of encyclopedia articles!

So I suppose that we should only let automotive engineers who know the ins and out of car production rate vehicles, only professional chefs with 5 star restaurant experience that have mastered a particular cuisine do Yelp ratings, only Academy Award winners should do IMDB ratings and only prostitutes and call girls rate hotels?

He7d3r (talkcontribs)
"...votes by anonymous users is obviously accepted"

That is not exactly the case. Votes by anonymous users are registered with an explicit indication that they come from anonymous users in the field aa_user_id (see more about the data being collected). So, if someone wants to take into account only ratings given by registered users, they can just filter those votes which are not marked like that. If someone else wants to compare the ratings from anons to the ratings from registered users, they can used the very same field from the tables to distinguish both kinds of ratings.

In other words, anyone looking into the data being collected by AFT can decide by itself if votes by anonymous users should be accepted or not for the analysis they are doing.

If the tool currently doesn't (and it currently doesn't) provide an interface for its users to select/compare/filter ratings depending on its prefered criteria (e.g. to get rid of anonymous users' ratings by [x] marking a small checkbox somewhere), such a feature should be requested on MediaWiki's bug tracker. This was requested for the dashboard (bug #30334), but something similar could also be requested for the rating form which is displayied on articles (anyone who wants to improve AFT can report this on bugzilla if it hasn't being already reported). Besides, interested users can also vote on open requests which they think really needs to be fixed.

WhatamIdoing (talkcontribs)

Subfader is not looking at the data; I'm not convinced that he even knew that the data existed.

Subfader's notion of what happens with AFT is apparently based on the <50 articles listed on the dashboard and a handful of articles he's read. He can't be upset about "his" articles being dissed, though, because in the last five years, Subfader has managed just 28 mainspace edits on the English Wikipedia and created zero articles there.

Subfader (talkcontribs)

Yes, I didn't know abou teh existance of that data, so what? Kill me? I bet you didn't know about http://toolserver.org/~catrope/articlefeedback/ either! If you did you would have posted the link 50 times by now as you did with the FAQ in your arrogant know-it-all-wannabe posting style... Also it's not my fault that I didn't know about that ressource. The plain fact that the page was only linked now, months after this epic feedback page started, is just a proof of the poor communication or ignorance by the officials.

Instead of making crazy assumptions about me, my wiki knowledge and my activity on other MW project accounts, answer some of the questions on the FAQ talk?

He7d3r (talkcontribs)

Just to note, the page about the data which is being collected was already linked from the FAQ section

;-)

Subfader (talkcontribs)

Helder, altho I appreciate your replies, but the main discussion page on WP is sending people here for feedback, comments and requests, no?