Extension talk:RevisionSlider

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Perhaps it is time to move this feature out of beta?

17
Summary by 197.218.89.141
197.218.90.170 (talkcontribs)

Just curious, but is this feature still beta in certain wikis?

Based on Beta Features, such features aren't meant to be left there indefinitely. Given that it seems as this extension is now stable in certain wikis, it should probably get an announcement and removed as a beta feature, see :

So either this needs to become an optional full feature, or yanked from every wiki that doesn't want it. If nothing else, it might drive individual wikis to ask for it to be enabled by default for casual editors, instead of become a gravestone in "graveyard of discarded ambitions".

Considering its popularity [1] chances are that it may become a default wikimedia extension and encourage volunteer developer improve its feature set due to widescale usage ...

197.218.90.170 (talkcontribs)

*instead of becoming

Addshore (talkcontribs)

Feature rollout is currently being planned :)

197.218.88.37 (talkcontribs)

You mean more feature rollout as a beta, or as a full optional feature?

Anyway, hopefully it won't beat Gmail's beta period record(http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/recycled/2009/07/why_did_it_take_google_so_long_to_take_gmail_out_of_beta.html) :).

Thanks for the update.

Tobias Gritschacher (WMDE) (talkcontribs)

Hi,

RevisionSlider is a beta-feature on all wikis since September 2016, see https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T143421#2632809. We're currently still testing a slightly different UI based on past user feedback (see https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T160410) and after giving us some time to receive some feedback on the implementation of this we're aiming to leave the beta-feature-status on all Wikipedias soon after.

IKhitron (talkcontribs)

Unfortunately, there is still a hook bug. It looks like it should be fixed before the move.

Christoph Jauera (WMDE) (talkcontribs)

Just a small update here:

The hook bug mentioned by IKhitron was fixed in the meantime.

As Tobias mentioned we are currently in the process of testing a different UI. You can find the newest version of the alternative UI on Beta, test.wikipedia.org and here on mediawiki.org.

- Please note, that the version on test and mediawiki has some minor issues with the tooltips right now. The fixes for that should be deployed during next week though.

Best,

Christoph

IKhitron (talkcontribs)

Hi, Christoph Jauera (WMDE), I checked just now, it still doesn't work. Partially. Some problems disappeared indeed, not all of them.

Christoph Jauera (WMDE) (talkcontribs)

Hey, @IKhitron that's sad to hear. Could you create a new ticket or comment in the existing one with the problems you still get? - That would be great!

Thanks in advance,

Christoph

IKhitron (talkcontribs)

Where is the ticket, I don't remember, Christoph Jauera (WMDE)? The problem I can see is that after usage of RS, for one revision, thanks action opens thanks page, in place of regular inline question.

Christoph Jauera (WMDE) (talkcontribs)

Here you go: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T142636 :-)

IKhitron (talkcontribs)

Thanks, Christoph Jauera (WMDE). Looks as it will be deployed next week, because of the switch. So, I'll just wait.

197.218.83.36 (talkcontribs)

> As Tobias mentioned we are currently in the process of testing a different UI. You can find the newest version of the alternative UI on Beta, test.wikipedia.org and here on mediawiki.org.

The new UI is definitely more intuitive than the older one. Dragging and dropping with the old one was a bit confusing and hard to get used to. So this will likely be a welcome improvement.

Great work!

Yeryry (talkcontribs)

How can I get the old one back? The new version is significantly inferior, IMHO. I probably could have just used a userscript to emulate the old version easily enough before, but now that it's out of beta that isn't so easy.

Lea Voget (WMDE) (talkcontribs)

Hi @Yeryry thanks a lot for your feedback! Is what is troubling you the fact that you can't click on bars anymore? We are currently working on getting this back - without losing the metaphor we introduced with the new design. If you want, you can follow https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T165831 to be up to date of our current plan. But if you are missing something else, please let us know!

Yeryry (talkcontribs)

Yes, being able to click above and below (not just on the bars) was much quicker and easier than it is now. Also (from T160410) "Pointers cannot be moved further than where the other pointer is" this was very useful, and while users would have needed to get used to how it works, they still do for the new version, which needs more effort to achieve the same results. I also feel the visual design of the old version was much better, but that's another question...

Lea Voget (WMDE) (talkcontribs)

Hey @Yeryry, thanks for specifying. I can see that moving the pointer past the other pointer is a shortcut once you understood the system. When testing the revisionSlider with people who were no experts yet, though, this was one of the things that was the most confusing. In their favor we decided to take that option out, and the new design is understood by far better if people have not trained a lot with the old design. However, I created a ticket ( https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T166541 ) so we have a place to gather ideas how to allow expert users to use the function without making it more complicated for people with less experience.

Thanks again for your feedback!

Lea

Reply to "Perhaps it is time to move this feature out of beta?"

New version does not work

20
Summary by Lea Voget (WMDE)

It does work, but not the same way that was appreciated here in the old UI

(closed until there are more news from WMDE about bringing back the clicking on bars)

IKhitron (talkcontribs)

Hi. Could you, please, rollback to the old version? It does not work in mobile. but you created a patch, so I belive it will work after deployment. But it does not work at desktop computers too, so can't be used anywhere. Thank you.

Lea Voget (WMDE) (talkcontribs)

Hi @IKhitron, thanks for the feedback! Could you give us a bit more detail into what you mean with "does not work"? If you could show us a screen video or annotated screenshot, that would be great. A detailed lists of all things you did and what happened would be appreciated, too :)

Thanks!

Lea

IKhitron (talkcontribs)

The screenshot will not help.

  1. I open hewiki diff in firefox windows 7.
  2. I try to move the bolls with a mouse - it works.
  3. I try to click some bar so the boll will move there - does not work.
  4. I try to move the bolls so they will exchange (old over new or vv) - does not work.

Thank you.

Lea Voget (WMDE) (talkcontribs)

Thanks for the clarification! The behavior you explain there is actually something we deliberately changed to work that way. The old behavior (click on a bar and one of the pointers moves there / move one pointer past the other pointer) had the problem, that it is very difficult for users to predict what will happen when they move a pointer. It was not intuitive that one pointer reacted to activity above the line, while the other to activity below the line. Therefore we decided to make the behavior more clear: You now have slider which show you exactly where you can move a ball to, and you know that the blue ball will always be associated with the one revision and the yellow ball with the other. Of course this comes with drawbacks, too (the ones you described). However, if you prefer to click rather than drag, you can still click on the slider area to move the ball without dragging it.

IKhitron (talkcontribs)

Thank you. It's wrong, but at least it's not a bug.

The problem is that "you can still click on the slider area to move the ball without dragging it" does not work.

Lea Voget (WMDE) (talkcontribs)

Hi @IKhitron,

does clicking on the slider line also not work for you? Thanks for specifying :)

IKhitron (talkcontribs)

What do you mean in "slider line"? I click on the bar, as always.

Lea Voget (WMDE) (talkcontribs)

I mean the blue and yellow lines that the knobs navigate on - very much in the middle where the upper and lower bars meet. Does that work for you?

IKhitron (talkcontribs)

Yes, it does. Please do not tell me that it should work there only.

Tobias Gritschacher (WMDE) (talkcontribs)

@IKhitron see https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T160410 for the specification how the new interface should work. The area to move the pointers by click was reduced to a clickable area around the yellow and blue horizontal lines. Reasoning against making the whole bar clickable is especially outlined in https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T160410#3157264 and https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T160410#3157497. If you have suggestions how to further improve the experience for users that prefer clicking, please don't hesitate to share.

IKhitron (talkcontribs)

I see. Thank you. It's too late. So, until there will be a possibility to choose between the old slider and the useless one, if any, I turned it off. A pity, because I used it a lot of times every day, but I have no choise. Thank you for the wonderful months.

Lea Voget (WMDE) (talkcontribs)

Hi @IKhitron, one thing to add to the reasoning above: We decided against using all bars as a clickable area, because on touch screens, there is no hovering. Therefore, users cannot hover, and see the tooltip, and click, and change the revision. Therefore on mobile, you see the tooltip in the upper part of the bar and and can change the revision on the lower bar.

However, we are in discussion how to improve the clickability of bars. I'll add you to the phabricator ticket once we decided how, maybe it will make you reconsider :)

IKhitron (talkcontribs)

Are you interested to know my reasons, Lea Voget (WMDE)?

Lea Voget (WMDE) (talkcontribs)

Of course! Please share :)

IKhitron (talkcontribs)

Well, there are 2 X 2 cases: 2 for desktop vs mobile and 2 for between bolls vs outside of them. Let's check these cases one by one, sorted by ascending problemacity.

  1. Mobile outside the bars - no problem at all.
  2. Desktop outside the bars - not so convenient, because the user should click in much smaller area, so it increases the time needed to open some diff, more or less to the time needed to do this in history page. But load the history page takes much more time, so it's not so bad.
  3. Desktop between the bars - very bad, because you should be very precise to click on the right line, when they are very close each to other. It's possible, but will take a lot of time - at least a second and maybe even more. So the advantage from the previous paragraph disappears, the diff opening using the history page is much faster.
  4. Mobile between the bars - extremally bad, because you can't touch at all the screen on one line without touching the other, as the distance between the lines is less than the finger diameter, and it should be at least 1.5 such diameters.

Summary - there is no sence to use it on desktop, and it's absolutely impossible to use it on mobile. If even one of these was working, I would use the slider, but if noone - I can't.

197.218.90.114 (talkcontribs)

<blockquote>Therefore, users cannot hover, and see the tooltip, and click, and change the revision. Therefore on mobile, you see the tooltip in the upper part of the bar and and can change the revision on the lower bar.</blockquote>

It was not particularly intuitive, although the help menu clearly notes this. Perhaps it could work if instead of single click to move the knob or ball, it could happen on double click. On mobile, double tap might be designed to do the same.

Alternatively, it might make sense to increase the size of the yellow / blue lines, to about maybe 2 mm (more or less) to highlight the "slideable" area. It isn't particularly obvious that the lines "highlight" when the pointer is hovered close to them (indicating that something could be done). It is not often the case that such a big object is a attached to a small rail, so it can be a bit surprising considering that this isn't a standard interface design that people are used to.

This is generally an interesting interface to keep experimenting with until a solution that works reasonably is found.

IKhitron (talkcontribs)

The tooltips never worked right for me in mobile. But I understood that there is nothing to do, and just suffered. The diff, in opposite, are very important.

197.218.90.114 (talkcontribs)

One idea might be to have a translucent / transparent (ghost like) knob showing on the rail where the pointer is as a way to indicate that someone can click there and move easily, e.g.:

-------◯---------⬤----------

^

On mobile devices this could be made bigger so that it is easier to click, or the default knob / ball could be enlarged (to a reasonable size) to ensure it works without any mobile specific changes.

197.218.90.114 (talkcontribs)
The tooltips never worked right for me in mobile. But I understood that there is nothing to do, and just suffered. The diff, in opposite, are very important.

Yes, designing for multiple devices requires tradeoffs. That's why some experts suggest starting with designs for mobile and then creating designs for desktops. Mobile devices always have limitations, so it is tends to be better to make features limited, and then enhance them when making the "full" mobile version.

This is especially a problem because the term mobile isn't well defined at all. There are too many things that can be mobile, e.g. a "gameboy" with internet (https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/54188-gameboy-owners-will-surf-the-web), portable tv, (http://www.dx.com/p/fulljoin-nmp001-2-4-lcd-portable-internet-tv-radio-multimedia-av-player-w-wi-fi-tf-black-176527) and so forth. Most people think "phone" when they think of mobile, but many mobile devices don't even have a touchscreen or a "normal" way to interact with a site.

I really don't envy anyone who decides to design (or support) anything for mobile devices.

Lea Voget (WMDE) (talkcontribs)

Thanks for the detailed information what you are looking for, and ideas how to solve this! I will get back to you as soon as there are news from our side :)

It is now on English Wikipedia and it is great!

1
FeralOink (talkcontribs)

Today is the first time that the Revision Slider showed up when I was looking at a revision history on my home Wikipedia, en. It is great! It works perfectly. The instructions overlay was helpful although the tool is so well-designed that it is almost self-explanatory. The RevisionSlider is delightfully precise because of those nice end points in yellow and blue. The slider moves smoothly, and supports some of the accessibility features that I have enabled in my browser due to my minor vision issues.

This tool is actually better than those that I have seen for similar purposes offered on for-profit websites. The German Wikipedia developers and UI designers who created this tool did an EXCELLENT job! Thank you for taking care of us so well. I just noticed that you are taking care of ALL of, as this is a RTL accessible extension!

Reply to "It is now on English Wikipedia and it is great!"
Nikkimaria (talkcontribs)

I've encountered a few display issues in using this tool. First, when I first opened the tool from a diff page the tutorial box popped up; however, the slider displayed over top / overlapping with the tutorial, so I actually couldn't close or move through the tutorial at all. Second, if I hover over a diff-bar and then close the tool, the popup showing information about the diff (username, size, etc) remains on my screen, and actually follows my view as I scroll down the page.

Christoph Jauera (WMDE) (talkcontribs)

Hey @Nikkimaria,

thanks for your feedback. To reproduce and fix the issue it would be great if you could give us some more information around the issue:

What browser ( e.g. Firefox, Chrome, Safari, Opera ) and operating system ( e.g. Windows, Apple, Linux ) did you use when the issue appeared? Did you use a computer or a mobile device like an iPad?

Thanks again and best,

Christoph

Nikkimaria (talkcontribs)

Windows computer, Firefox53

Christoph Jauera (WMDE) (talkcontribs)

Hmm, sorry but it seem that I can not reproduce the issue with that configuration alone. :-/

I assume that some specific setting on your machine or with your account interferes with the extension. To better understand what's happening I guess I need a few more things, it would be the best if you could provide me additional input on:

- what specific wiki the issue appeared on ( e.g. en.wikipedia.org / en.wikivoyage.org ... )

- gadgets you have activated there ( see Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets )

- other user scripts you might have installed

If you could post a screenshot with the issue it would also be super helpful.

Thanks in advance,

Christoph

IKhitron (talkcontribs)

... Add ons of Firefox.

Nikkimaria (talkcontribs)

This screencast demonstrates the second issue (the tutorial no longer appears so I can't reproduce that): https://www.screencast.com/t/Rxd5inB4G

It occurred on en.wikipedia.org. I use the Modern skin and a number of gadgets and scripts, including nav popups, Twinkle, reference tooltips, HotCat, WikEd, and RefToolbar.

Christoph Jauera (WMDE) (talkcontribs)

Ok I could reproduce the issue with the help dialog. It seems to be related to the Modern skin. I created a ticket for that: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T166209

I will further investigate whats happening with the tooltip. Thanks so far for your input!

Reply to "Display issues"
Bultro (talkcontribs)

When the tool has just been opened, in its initial range, the blue dot (newer revision) is placed at the far right of the slider. Previous revisions are shown, but later revisions are not, until the user presses the forward arrow. Basically, I have to press the forward arrow every time... It would be better if dots were initially placed towards the middle of the slider, instead of the far right (unless, of course, the user started from the last revision).

Christoph Jauera (WMDE) (talkcontribs)

Hi @Bultro,

thanks for your post. The issue you describe is already known to us and there is a ticket on Phabricator: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T145645 for it. Improving the situation there without increasing the loading time for every use is not trivial that's why we - for now - do not work on it. You can look the conversation up in the ticket. If there are any new developments around the topic we will keep it updated.

Best and thanks again,

Christoph

Reply to "Initial range of slider"
L3X1 (talkcontribs)

This new tool is awesome and will save on many frustrasting trips back and forth in the history. Barnstars for all involved!

Lea Voget (WMDE) (talkcontribs)

Thanks @L3X1! We are very happy to hear that :)

Best,

Lea

View history vs. Difference between revisions

2
Summary by 197.218.80.179

Topic:Tmxhqv9cpkrpfb25

Ticket filed at https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T160739

Vojtěch Veselý (talkcontribs)

Hi, this tool works the first day on Czech Wikipedia and I am very excited about it. :-) One question: I can open the tool only on "Difference between revisions" page. I would recommend to add some link or button for opening the tool on "View history" page as well. Now I have to start with the "old" system to get to the "new" and its a bit confusing and unnecessary.

Lea Voget (WMDE) (talkcontribs)

Hi @Vojtěch Veselý, we are very happy that you are excited about the RevisionSlider! Thanks for the feedback on the location of the RevisionSlider, the right phabricator link can be found in the summary :)

Shearonink (talkcontribs)

The "tutorial" should have a clear and very visible link for disabling this feature. ~~~~

83.28.192.72 (talkcontribs)

You do'nt use the "~~~~" magicWord to sign you posts on ~Flow.

This comment was hidden by 83.28.192.72 (history)
Shearonink (talkcontribs)

Hey, it's me again...can someone please post (without being snarky thanks) about how to disable this feature? And not just "go to settings" - step-by-step instructions gratefully appreciated.

Wargo (talkcontribs)

Special:Preferences->Appearance->Don't show the RevisionSlider

Shearonink (talkcontribs)

Thank you Wargo.

Slider extension would be much better without a slider

3
Saint Johann (talkcontribs)

Re phab:T163685 and since I was asked there to provide feedback on this feature here:

I think in the current version it just looks like an example of software bloat. Sure, ability to move through diffs with AJAX is a lot better than the current way for the most editors, I will not dispute that. But the whole premise of RevisionSlider is wrong for one very major reason: this is not normal, the fact that the previous revision is +23 and it is almost half the height of the +984 one is not normal.

The bars don’t represent any real information in any shape or form, the graph isn’t showing anything, therefore it should’ve not been done in the first place. Developers could’ve just made an insert of history page and a scroll in that exact space and it would’ve not been such a mental disaster as parsing this thing through.

(I am not going to excite a riot or anything in my local community about turning this feature on by default, but it is really a sad state of affairs that communities are being notified about the future change in 1 day timeframe. Consider this my last comment on the situation, I am really disappointed with WMDE developers conduct and replies [such as repeating question ‘Did you care and provide feedback?’ over and over again as if we had any timeframe for turning it on by default], even if my messages might’ve come across as angry at IRC.)

Malyacko (talkcontribs)

Hi stjn, just a clarification if you refer to our IRC conversation yesterday (the last sentence sounds a bit like it): I am not a WMDE developer and your messages did not come across as angry but rather direct (a communication style that I also prefer, so I hope I didn't come across as angry or such either). As I said, from my personal point of view it's a good idea to make it clearer whether a feature which is about to leave its beta status will become enabled by default or not. My two cents. Again, thanks for your feedback!

Lea Voget (WMDE) (talkcontribs)

Hi @Saint Johann,

thanks for your feedback. You say that the height of the bars as shown in the RevisionSlider is misleading, since the height is not linear to the actual change size. We discussed this issue when designing the RevisionSlider. The issue we had was that on a linear scale one big revision made the whole slider unusable. Either the slider would suddenly be really high (which we don't want, since we still want to see the contents of the compared revisions below) or all other revisions would suddenly be really small, and differences between them would not be visible. Since we thought that it is more important to see a difference between a 2 Byte change and a 4 Byte change rather than between a 1000 Byte change and 1002 Byte change, we decided for a logarithmic scale.While this solution solves the issues I described, it of course has the drawback of what you described.

To the timeframe of communication: We decided to notify the community 2 days in advance, because we wanted to make sure that people still remember the announcement when the RevisionSlider is enabled. In many village pumps, information is out of sight quickly. We made this decision based on the very good feedback we had received until then. We even had self organized community consensus tickets by 3 communities (apart from the German one). We expect the RevisionSlider to be a positive change for the broad majority of users. If wanted, users may also disable the RevisionSlider in their user settings. And as I said in the phabricator ticket, we will disable the feature if a community requests that - we develop software to support users, not to hinder them.

I am sorry you had an unpleasant experience on IRC, but as @Malyacko said, this was not with anyone from WMDE.

Best,

Lea

Reply to "Slider extension would be much better without a slider"

Issue: Long histories are hard to navigate

4
Florian Blaschke (talkcontribs)

Navigating page histories with thousands of edits is really annoying. I can't find any way to speed the process up, by jumping farther at a time or even getting to the very beginning or back to the very end of a page history. I haven't been able to come up with a great solution myself, so I only pose the problem here.

Christoph Jauera (WMDE) (talkcontribs)

Hi @Florian Blaschke,

thanks for your feedback I created a ticket on Phabricator so we can keep track of it and we might consider it for future versions.

One further remark: I am not sure what your specific use case is here but skipping many revisions could probably better be done on the history page and when you found the area your looking for you could switch to the diff view and start using the RevisionSlider there.

Thanks again and best,

Christoph

Christoph Jauera (WMDE) (talkcontribs)

Ups forgot the ticket: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T164602

Florian Blaschke (talkcontribs)

Hi Christoph,

it did occur me afterwards that using the normal history is an obvious workaround, but I think it should be easier within the RevisionSlider too.

Thank you, anyway!

Reply to "Issue: Long histories are hard to navigate"