Structured Discussions/Deprecation
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Structured Discussions (SD - Flow) is used on a few wikis. This extension is not maintained. DiscussionTools (DT) is the default discussion system on wikis now.
The Growth team (SD maintainers) and the Editing team (DT maintainers) have started thinking about how to deprecate Structured Discussions (and possibly LiquidThreads) and replace them with DiscussionTools.
Structured Discussions are a complex piece of software that generates a lot of maintenance issues. Estimating the work required to adapt Structured Discussions to the IP Editing: Privacy Enhancement and Abuse Mitigation project revealed a very significant workload. In view of all these challenges, the decision was taken to inform the communities of the future deprecation of Structured Discussions.
The idea is to encourage communities to switch active Structured Discussions tools to the DiscussionTools talk page format. Then, the Structured Discussions pages would be removed from the wikis, at a yet to-be-defined date.
Project updates[edit]
- - first internal document by Kosta Harlan (Staff software engineer, Growth team) and Benoît Evellin (Community Relations Specialist, attached to the Growth team) on sunsetting SD
- - first meeting with Growth and Editing about SD deprecation
- - Comparison table of the two tools.
- - creation of the project page
- - Data on usage of Structured Discussions
- - Community discussions regarding archiving SD boards on wikis.
- Next - Communication plan to assist communities archiving their Flow/LQT boards
- Next - Setting Flow/LQT pages in read-only
- Next - Convert Flow/LQT contents
Structured Discussions' deprecation[edit]
The Wikimedia Foundation working on changes to how IP editing is handled: IP Editing: Privacy Enhancement and Abuse Mitigation. Temporary accounts for unregistered editors will be a new type of user account. This requires changing how the features we use to contribute to the wikis' work.
This work concerns all features, and it raises some challenges. The case of Structured Discussions (also known as “SD” or “Flow”) is one of them. This extension is used at a few wikis, that are progressively contacted in November and December 2023. Flow is a complex piece of software that was never quite finished, fits poorly into the MediaWiki architecture, and creates a significant number of technical errors.
The usage of Structured Discussions is low. In August 2023, on average DiscussionTools is used about 18,780 times per day, while Structured Discussions is used about 250 times per day, mainly at French Wikipedia.
We considered several options to adapt Structured Discussions: a full adaptation; a partial adaptation where Temp accounts can respond but not create new conversations. All of them would take a lot of time and effort for a short-term benefit. Also, the Wikimedia Foundation's long-term plan is to remove Structured Discussions from the wikis, mainly due to the maintenance cost. As a consequence, we prefer to avoid adapting Structured Discussions to Temporary accounts.
We take the opportunity of the work around Temporary accounts to question the concerned communities regarding the future of Structured Discussions.
DiscussionTools is the replacement for Structured Discussions. They are the default discussion system at all wikis. They allow anyone to start, reply or subscribe to a conversation. They provide a visual experience on wikitext-based conversations, and they cover the vast majority of features Structured Discussions offer.
The goal with this conversation is to respond to community's questions regarding the archival of Structured Discussions.
The idea is to proceed in two stages:
- discussion pages using SD are archived as subpages. They are replaced by a classic discussion page. In this way, the most active pages will already be ready when we proceed to step 2.
- SD are removed from the wiki. Existing pages (including archived ones) will be converted to a format yet to be defined.
We encourage communities to start the first step.
Questions asked to the communities[edit]
Starting at the end of November 2023, communities where Structured Discussions are still in use are progressively informed of the upcoming deprecation. We ask them the following questions:
- Are the reasons given for archiving structured discussions clear?
- Are the two steps outlined above for archiving and uninstalling structured discussions clear?
- If so, what is a reasonable timeframe for archiving pages for deinstallation? At present, deinstallation is not planned on our side (even if the second quarter of 2024 is mentioned), as we are waiting for the end of these conversations, which take place on multiple wikis.
- In your opinion, what format should pages currently using SDs be converted to when we proceed with the deinstallation of structured discussions?
Communities discussions report
Structured Discussions and DiscussionTools Comparative review[edit]
Main characteristics[edit]
Status of each tool, and their integration to the wiki's key features.
| LiquidThreads | Structured Discussions | DiscussionTools | Convenient Discussions | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Type of tool | Mediawiki extension | Gadget/Userscript based on DiscussionTools | ||
| Release status | Unmaintained | Maintained (Wikimedia Foundation) | Maintained (Volunteers) | |
| Activation | Pending removal[1] | Wiki opt-in, user configurable | User opt-in and configurable | |
| Visual editing |  Not done
|
 Done
|
Done
|
Not done
|
| Backwards-compatibility with wikitext | Not done
|
Not done
|
Done
|
Done
|
| Templates support | Done
|
Done
|
 Partially done – Tables, templates and parser tags aren't allowed in replies in visual mode
|
Done
|
| Full history integration with the rest of the wiki | Done
|
Not done
|
Done
|
Done
|
| Mobile web support | Not done
|
Done
|
Done
|
Not done
|
| Mobile app support | Not done
|
Not done
|
Done
|
Not done
|
| Permalink to a given comment | Done
|
Done
|
Partially done – if the comment is not moved elsewhere.[2]
| |
Discussion features[edit]
Interaction with talk pages and other comments.
| LiquidThreads | Structured Discussions | DiscussionTools | Convenient Discussions | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Dedicated workflow for starting a new topic | Done
|
Done
|
Done
|
Done
|
| Topic and contents preload | Done
|
Done
|
Done
|
Done
|
| Indication of new comments when you read a topic | Not done
|
Not done
|
Done
|
|
| Indication of edited comments when you read a topic | Done
|
Done
|
Not done
|
Done
|
| Each topic is a different pages/each conversation has a permalink | Done
|
Done
|
 In progress[2]
|
In progress[2]
|
| Move topics between pages | Done
|
Not done – planned but not implemented
|
Partially done – via wikitext editing, breaks links.[2]
|
Done
|
| Include discussions on another page and reply to them there | Not done
|
Not done – planned, including cross-wiki transclusion, but not implemented
|
Done – via transclusion
| |
| Editing comments | Done
|
Done
|
Partially done – via wikitext editing the whole page or section. See T242562 and T245225 for the editing of individual comments.
|
Done
|
| Thank a comment from within the talk page | Partially done – via Page history
|
Done
|
Partially done – via Thanks in Page history. In progress – Work on supporting "Thanking" from the DiscussionTools UI is being tracked.
|
Done
|
| Sort topics by recent comment | Done
|
Done
|
Not done
|
Not done
|
| Sort topics by start date | Done
|
Done
|
Not done
|
Not done
|
| Summarize a discussion at the top of it | Done
|
Done
|
Partially done – by editing opening comment.
| |
| Mark a message as read or unread | Done
|
Not done
|
Not done
|
Not done
|
| Show/hide (collapse) subthreads | Done
|
Not done
|
Not done
|
Done
|
Notifications and interactivity[edit]
| LiquidThreads | Structured Discussions | DiscussionTools | Convenient Discussions | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Highlight a set of unread comments | Not done
|
Done
|
Done – only when subscribed to a topic and using links from notifications
|
Done
|
| Subscribe to be notified about new comments to a topic | Done – via Watchlist
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Done – via Echo
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Done – via Echo or itself
| |
| Be notified when a new topic is started on a talk page | ||||
| Auto-subscription to a topic you created | Done – default
| |||
| Highlight a quoted comment | Not done – can link to comments but only as standalone pages
|
Done
|
Done
|
Done
|
| Notification of edited comments | Partially done – only on your own comments
|
Done
|
Not done
|
Not done
|
Maintenance and moderation[edit]
| LiquidThreads | Structured Discussions | DiscussionTools | Convenient Discussions | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Direct access to user talkpage, contribs and more | Partially done – if linked in the signature
|
Done
|
Partially done – if linked in the signature
| |
| Hide (moderate) a comment | Partially done – no undelete UI
|
Done
|
Partially done – via undo/rollback (requires searching for edit in edit history) or archival templates, not included and requires editing wikitext
|
Done
|
| Hide or delete a topic | Done
|
Partially done – same as DiscussionTools
| ||
| Archiving discussions | Not needed
|
Not needed
|
Not done – see T337293
|
Not done – Same as DiscussionTools, though moving topics can be used for manual archival.
|
| Report an inappropriate comment | Not done
|
Not done
|
In progress[3]
|
Not done
|
Data on usage[edit]
In August 2023, on average:
- DiscussionTools is used about 18,780 times per day.
- Flow is used about 250 times per day, mainly at French Wikipedia.
- LiquidThreads is used less than once per day.
Notes and references[edit]
- ↑ https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T332022
- ↑ 2.0 2.1 2.2 2.3 Support for offering permanent links to talk page comments and topics is being worked on. Links to comments already exist but aren't permanent without Help:PermanentLink. See T302011. While DiscussionTools doesn't have a UI for acquiring links, Convenient Discussions does and can automatically generate PermanentLinks.
- ↑ T339247 – Create entry points for the Incident Report dialog with DiscussionTools