# User talk:Shirayuki

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## Invalid name for maintenance script transstat.php

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I found that name of the page for maintenance script transstat.php is ￼￼Manual:transsat.php – it's wrongly￼￼. Is there a reason why it's called differently? I ask you because when you marked the page for translation you had to find out that it is different name. Or is it mistake and I can do repair?

Reply to "Invalid name for maintenance script transstat.php"

## Translated categories deleted

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I noticed that you deleted many translated-into-Arabic categories as they were empty. Is there an official policy concerning empty categories? If yes, can you share it with me? Please note that these deleted categories were not empty because there was no content for them, but rather because there was content for them but not yet translated.

No, but please do NOT create empty categories.

## Request for marking translation

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I think that draft pages should not be marked for translation.

Since it is only lacking translation markers, I am going to copy it to the main page and then can you mark it for translation?

@Nikitrain As Help:Notifications/Thanks page has been created very recently, it can wait for some time before receiving translation updates. Also, it is likely that this page will receive more content improvements from contributors in the next few days or so. Requesting for the page to be marked for translation now would require re-adjusting the translation markers, causing double work for @Shirayuki.

@SSethi (WMF) The author of the task T181502 on phabricator asked me to mark the page for translation as the page had all the info required in the task. what should I do now?

Most of hook pages are not marked for translation. Why did you prepared those pages for translation??

Specifically, I prepared these sites because I use those hooks in my extension.

Some pages are ready for translate, and others not. Therefore, I want to check all pages of this type, update their content and possibly prepare them for translation. I asked you for a mark to translate, because you have more experience, and I need to make sure then its correctly.

Reply to "Request for marking translation"

## About translating Talk pages consultation 2019/Phase 1 report

26

Hi Shirayuki,

I see you worked on making it possible to translate the section Results of on-wiki discussions on Talk pages consultation 2019/Phase 1 report, or at least the beginning of it. I do translations to French. On Thursday-Friday (it was during the night), I asked the Wikimedia staff to make the whole page translatable. I thought they would do it themselves as this was their report, but I’m glad to see that a volunteer (if you are actually one) is available to do the work — .

In your first edit, you added newlines in the table of themes, in the column ‘Summary of the theme’. This caused the appearance of line breaks in the rendered table! You should remove these line breaks.

I also want to translate the rest of the page (the subsections and the conclusions), so I hope you aim to finish the work.

In this, I would like to be able to provide a translation of the quotations, where the quotations in my language have no translation and the others have a translation in my language, just like it’s done in the original in English. To achieve this, I suggest you reduce that complex and ugly code by creating a template. It shall take three parameters, so you would call it in this form: {{Quotation with original|original language|direction of original|original quotation|translated quotation}} and in the page it would put the quotations with the same code they have now (I suppose there’s a magic word to insert the current language’s code; otherwise, the template might require it as another parameter). If the original is in the target language, then we could use the template with one parameter, or use another {{Quotation|quotation}} template. I would have all this to translate in the translation interface, and then I could have the original text either in my language and without a translation or in another language and with a translation. Copying the original text in every translation will create redundant data, but currently it’s not much data, and my solution is a way to make this render very well for readers without us having to work much. If we get to frequently have presentations like this, then we might ask the MediaWiki developers to implement a feature to manage such cases without creating redundant data.

I hope it’s okay for you. Maybe you already had these ideas. If you need help, you might ask the other administrators of MediaWiki or the WMF staff. If you don’t want to work on adding translation tags in the rest of the page, I can do it for you — like you, I’m a volunteer who is keen to work for others. Then I’ll still need you to eventually mark the page for translation. Thank you for your work — !

I see that for anchors like #Indentation, you only made the word ‘Indentation’ translatable, and if there are several anchors separated with commas, you made every anchor text individually translatable. I don’t think it is a good idea, because punctuation vary between languages, e.g. some language might prefer having the sharp at the end (‘Indentation#’) or using semicolons instead of commas. Therefore punctuation should be considered as texts to translate, and preferably you will make a whole sentence or line of text directly translatable instead of making translatable many pieces of it. As it is only a few characters, it doesn’t significantly add work for translators, and then we better understand what the text means.

This is my opinion, but maybe you are completely sure about what you’re doing. Anyway what you did is convenient for my language, so it’s not a problem for me if you don’t change it, but I still like to say it questions me.

As you’re Japanese, you might know much more than me how much the use of punctuation can vary from a language to another — .

Actually you can use variables to refer to the original quotation I talked about above. I stupidly forgot that we could use a variable. So there will not be any redundancy and my idea is perfect. Yay for MediaWiki!

So I formatted the page according to my suggestions. I created Template:Quotation with original. I put translation tags (I still don’t feel it’s necessary to put as many tags as you do). The page now needs to be marked for translation. Please do it if you can — !

Hi Shirayuki,

I saw you worked again on the page. Well, I don’t like at all what you did… You added useless parameters (translation 2 and others, whereas this parameter must be used where there are two people who talk) to my ‘quotations with original’ and focused the translations on this. This won’t work. Also, again you put many <translate> tags. Many times you wrote </translate> in the code and <translate> immediately after. Why is this useful for? You say ‘<tvar> doesn’t work on multiple lines;’ I don’t know how you know that, and furthermore you removed all my tvars… Can you give me an explanation?

Please consider it’s not comfortable for me to write messages to you without getting any reply. As we have different point of views, I’d be happy if we could discuss things before coming to editing conflicts. Say something. Insult me if you want, but say something, please!

"translation2" parameter is required to recognize whether the quotation is translated or not. (by comparing with "translation" parameter)

The quotation is prepended with its language code ([en]). If the quotation is untranslated, the language should be [en] not [{{PAGELANGUAGE}}]!

<tvar>s containing multiple lines are ignored by Extension:Translate.

Can I remove language codes (other than original quotation)? If so, recognizing whether translated or not will be unnecessary.

Ow, I hadn’t seen you had messed up the template… If the quotation is untranslated, it means it uses the page language, otherwise the person who writes must translate. If the source language is English, as a translator I will provide a translation.

E.g, imagine this: {{Quotation with original | original = <tvar|original>Something</>}}

The translation in French will be: {{Quotation with original | lang = en | dir = ltr | original = $original | translation = Quelque chose}} (‘Quelque chose’ is ‘Something’ in French). And if the original text is: {{Quotation with original | lang = fr | dir = ltr | original = <tvar|original>Quelque chose</> | translation = Something}} Then the translation in French will be: {{Quotation with original | original =$original}}

But in Spanish it will be: {{Quotation with original | lang = fr | dir = ltr | original = $original | translation = Alguna cosa}} Do you understand it better now — ? Sorry if I wasn’t clear enough the first time. The translation parameter already tells whether the quotation is translated or not… If there is no translation, you must just give the original parameter. So I don’t understand your idea. Can you prove that <tvar> doesn’t work with multiple lines? Have you already tested? Maybe I’m weird, but I’m not convinced. Thank you for your answer and your motivation anyway — . For now, I feel you’ve just messed things whereas everything was cleanly prepared. Also, I still don’t understand why you write </translate> then <translate> just after. My idea with my quotation template will cause redundancy about the lang and dir info, because every language which is not the original language of the translation will have those lang and dir values. Actually I have a proportional sight: those lang and dir are very short data compared to the quotations, so it’s fair and clean to repeat them every time but once. We could also imagine having: {{Quotation with original | lang = en | dir = ltr | original = Something | translation = <translate>Something</translate>}}. Then in the template {{#ifeq: {{{lang|}}} | {{PAGELANGUAGE}} | <!-- write the translation -->}}. It would be okay, and then the redundancy would be to repeat the original quotation once. But from my point of view, it’s important that translators see in the interface that they are translating quotations. And in this case, the page contains useless info, whereas with my previous idea, every page in each language contains only the necessary info. Well, you’re the admin, do it the way you want. Anyway I still don’t see the need for translation 22 parameters or something else. Parameters are very confusing. first quotationsecond quotation originaloriginal 2(if lang is en) used for comparison with "translation2". translationtranslation 2(if lang is NOT en) used for comparison with "translation2". translation2translation 22used for translating Patterns: originaltranslationtranslation2result original[fr]translation[en]translation2[en]=untranslatedoriginal and translation are shown original[fr]translation[en]translation2[ja]=translatedoriginal and translation2 are shown original[en]-translation2[en]=untranslatedoriginal is shown original[en]-translation2[ja]=translatedoriginal and translation2 are shown OK… I see you try to deal with the case when no translation in the page language is provided, whereas I was completely forgetting this case — . It’s too bad that there’s no magic word that gives en when untranslated and {{PAGELANGUAGE}} only when translated (if it was the case, my first solution, suggesting that we should translate the whole template with <tvar> for original, would have worked). I’m still not convinced that <tvar> doesn’t work on multiple lines (I don’t see why it wouldn’t, at least if there’s no empty line), but anyway it seems we won’t use it. So, yes, we can remove the display of the language code of the translation. I understand it will make things easier. Thank you. The source value should also be translatable (e.g. ‘French Wikipedia’ will be ‘Wikipédia francophone’ in French). I finally understood that you write </translate><translate> to split paragraphs in several translatable parts. As there were newlines, I thought the parts were different paragraphs… But well, they’re not and you prefer when original strings are one sentence long. OK then, boss — . Maybe the Translate extension should provide a setting to make this automatic. Please don’t be long because non-English-speaking users may be waiting for a translation of the report before they participate to the Phase 2 of the consultation. Actually an user told me he wanted to read a translation (because he does not understand English well) before he answers to the questions of Phase 2. Do you prefer that I prepare the page by myself? (If you gives no input within a few days, I’ll probably do it — Phase 2 ends in two weeks, June 15th.) Re Shirayuki, So the report is fully translatable now. It’s great — . I’m working on it. There are still a few weird things. • The translation2 (and translation 22) parameters are still there. At least you should give them better names, such as translation2en or translation to en, so that it’s less confusing. Well, I hope that a template I created myself won’t be left with ugly parameter names — . • The translation in English remains shown before a translation in another language. Just see here. Actually it’s not a so bad idea because it makes clear that we often translated from English, but it is not mandatory, and it is quite evident that we translated from English because it’s what we do all the time. • If you keep the translation2en parameters, you should at least re-add the language codes before the translations (so you will respect the original presentation from the WMF staff). • Note that translators may not see if they are translating a message which was originally in English. And if they see, they will have non-translations to provide; in my case I’m using [fr] as placeholder. • My first solution which suggested giving the whole template to translate (well, I don’t know what I should say instead of ‘template’ to talk about its instance on the page — may you know?) cared about this. • Another interesting solution would be to move the source parameter before the quotation texts, so the translator would see ‘Wikipedia in your language’ and they’ll immediately know they don’t have to translate (while here we must scroll down a little to see this, and we must care about when we reach quotations). • We could also think about giving the original text to translate, so we would have original, translation2en (or simply translation) and translation alt where the latter contains the same data as original but is translatable and is used only if it’s not in the same language as original and its content is different. But this will be impractical for translators who don’t understand the source language. Haven’t you already planned to fix all this — ? Indeed one of my colleagues provided new translations to messages that were originally in French — . So would you recommend something? I don’t need to show language name… But well, I applied what I felt is good. We only need twenty lines in the template code, and we don’t need the translation2 parameters. I also put the source at the top (in the code) as I told you. Don’t you feel it’s better this way? Now the page needs to be remarked for translation (and the twice translated quotations should reappear). Your template code was very messy, whereas it can be achieved with a few lines — . As I removed the translation2 parameters and used only translation, you should quickly remark the report for translation, because the translated versions are broken for now. Yes but it doesn’t matter. If you want, I can add a small condition to avoid this, but well, I thought it was clearer if we showed it this way. Nevertheless, the content should be translated. If it’s not, the content should still be readable, but it’s not dramatic if it’s a bit ‘buggy’. I think it is waste of space about large quotation. Well, I fixed it. If ‘it doesn’t matter,’ then it can be as you prefer — . Use language name in /qqq pages e.g. "{{warning|1={{#language:ja}} translators: there is no need to translate this translation unit.}}" No need to change the template. It’s faster to put placeholders than to write warnings. This would have made many warnings. The template needed to be simplified… Your code was very redundant and hard to understand. The code I put is much easier to maintain. But now the page needs to be remarked for translation, please! Is it okay now? The page still needs to be remarked for translation for all this to work. Thank you so much for all! So far I’ve translated the whole report. I hope it fits you well like it is. (And sorry for my double space mistake and thank you for having fixed it — .) I made some new fixes in the original text (as I noticed things that had to be fixed), so for this to be really well, you should mark the page for translation again. It’s been nice to see that there are motivated volunteer people to make things work here. Reply to "About translating Talk pages consultation 2019/Phase 1 report" ## How to do prepare page for translate by Translate, if page use localize by old system? 4 I want translate page Manual:Configuration_settings, but it use old system localization for now (without Translate). I can do prepare it, but I don't know how to do correctly. How is right procedure for it, what do you use? It is too complex to prepare correctly. I know. Yet I am interested in the optimum procedure. Personally, I would solve it by temporarily moving the localized pages, preparing the default page in English for translation, and then gradually inserting the translated messages. Additionally, most of variable descriptions are already translated. e.g. Manual:$wgServerName/ja.

They should be reused. There is no need to re-translate.

Reply to "How to do prepare page for translate by Translate, if page use localize by old system?"

## SimpleMathJax

3

Shortened redirect pages are necessary for better searching and linking within the wiki, as well as for generating shorter hyperlinks and interwikilinks to pages on mediawiki.org. The benefits gained from having both SimpleMathJax and Extension:SimpleMathJax on the wiki far outweigh any costs. Nicole Sharp (talk) 08:00, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Use [[Special:MyLanguage/Extension:SimpleMathJax|SimpleMathJax]] or {{ll|Extension:SimpleMathJax|nsp=0}} on mediawiki.org.

That's even longer. It's just faster and easier to type "SimpleMathJax" when linking or searching, than having to type in "Extension:" as well, if it can be made unnecessary with a simple redirect: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/SimpleMathJax is faster to type and easier to share. For the redirect, there isn't any risk of conflation or need of disambiguation (like there would be for "MathJax"). Nicole Sharp (talk) 18:50, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

## Manual:Pywikibot

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Let's stop reverting as the page and its translations are complete mess now and discuss. I do not see any reason for your edits. You are basically making a) the translation variable not understandable b) the old obsolete translations valid. Both seem completely wrong to me, I would say vandalism. Please explain

As I wrote in the edit summary, variable names should be untranslatable because some translators translates variable names. $1 is better than$irc.

Why is $1 better than$irc? In the summary you told me it is untranslatable. It is not true for many languages. In my opinion the variable name should describe, what the variable hides (e.g. $irc_link or$python_code)

Some translators translate/modify variable names. Will you fix all wrongly translated variable names?

Yes, but $1 does not solve this issue unfortunately. I think patrolers on this wiki are here to notice the issue and fix it. I'm not a patroler on this wiki. So what next. Use$1 or $irc? I do not see any reason for$1 and I mentioned one reason for $irc. That's 0:1 still Additionally, Special:Diff/3191614 contains wrong markup: * Use the {{<tvar|irc>irc|pywikibot|<nowiki /></> #pywikibot IRC channel}} for quick questions This confused translators.$irc #pywikibot IRC channel looks like template name.

If you do not fix, you should use $1. I have ever fixed a lot of variables. Again, this is a problem of patrollers on this wiki (or the whole translation interface). If translator does not know, what variable is, definitely he should not translate. And still I do not see, why should I use$1 over $name. Is there any reason? I know, thank you for this fix, but do not thank you for the other fixes (variable name and list removal). For the list removal see Help:Extension:Translate/Page translation administration, I can not find any info about variable names and why to choose$1 over $name anywhere unfortunately I understand, but what prevents translators in translating$1?

So where should I find info about MediaWiki.org?

I know that $1,$2, ... have never been translated on MediaWiki.org.

That's great, but it does not prevent them to be translated in the future. It tells us just that Persians, Arabs and others, who can translate $1, have been good translators until now, which is not a thing we should rely on in the future. The spaces can be added between$ and 1 as well

I also don't like that the whole page is created with named variables and you changed just one variable name to make the whole page inconsistent. Translators can now think this is a mistake and name variable in their translation, because the other variables on the page are named.

I would recommend to not fight over the naming conventions and respect what the original authors have used. Changing them just causes additional work for no good reason and is counter-productive.

I personally prefer names but they can pose issues with right to left languages (not sure if it is much worse than numbers though).

The translators who mess up the variables are just bad translators and should be told to pay more attention.

Both names and numbers already show as insertable buttons. In addition we can configure it so that unknown and unused variables make the translation to by fuzzy.

Fuzzy marking for missing variables like the one on TWN would be helpful also here in my opinion. At least for Manual:Pywikibot subpages for sure. TWN also do not let translator save the translation if a variable is missing. I thought this has been working the same here already. Is there any drawback for MW.org if it would be configured? Are there any pages, that could not be translated afterwards?

Not really, I just reused old message and its translations by adding <!--T:8--> to the newly added message to the page, but the variable name, missing *, and the spare ending period had to be updated by translators.

That's also why I don't like you deleted some old unused messages with translations, they could be reused in the future like <!--T:8--> was (except those talking about compat, in which case it was absolutely fine and thank you).

One thing I didn't remember earlier: making unused variable names fuzzy had some issues on pages where people were using dollar amounts like \$100. If we only used named parameters that would could be avoided.

PS: This talk should be moved to the (finally created) Translator hub and discussed with the translation community here. There are some pros and cons of both approaches and we should decide, which cons are less severe and recommend that one in the future.

Hi,

I’m interested in this discussion. I think what should determine whether we use names or figures for variables is the opinion of the wiki administrators, opinion that might be the result of collective decision-makings on the wiki. Here Shirayuki is an administrator of the wiki. He (she?) says that from his (her?) experience, it’s better for this wiki to use figures for variables, so currently we should follow his (her?) opinion. If you have more arguments than him (her?), then you might open a debate so that there is a collective decision-making.

Maybe MediaWiki has a recommended workaround for the problem with dollar amounts? What should translators do? Should we surround the dollar signs with <nowiki> tags for example?

I also prefer when variables have clear names, but anyway it’s often not enough. What would be much more appropriate is that the translation interface replaces the variables with what they represent in the list of translations (it’s stupid it’s not already the case). Then we could know what the variable contains without having to open the rendered page (and if the variable is a link, it would make it work in the translation interface).

## Using Template:ll

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I have question for you. In source code page Help:Contents I see two variants for links (i.e.):

* {{ll|Help:Namespaces|nsp=0}}
* {{ll|Help:Cite|<translate><!--T:35--> References</translate>}}

In first example, if is title of page translated as "Help:Jmenný prostor", I see on Help:Contents only "Jmenný prostor", but if is translated as "Nápověda:Jmenný prostor", I see "Nápověda:Jmenný prostor". Template do not work with localization for now, "Help" is "Nápověda" in localized form. By my mind is problem, what may be possible repaired in template code, but it I want not for now.

My questions: Is better use first link form template, with parameter nsp for default namespace? Or next form, where is used translated string?

## Template:Hubs

4
Summary by Want

Thank you, very much for quickly reaction.

I have two requests for you. I questioned you before eight days, to any page (or hub) with best practices for translators.

I found the hubs for users, admins, developers, but not for translators. For it, I created Translator hub.

I have not permissions for changes in locked templates. You may code Special:Diff/3206295/3206294 into page Template:hubs, please?

Can you mark page Translator hub, too?

Thank you.

When started translating, I noticed that I made a wrong link to the talks page. I've fixed it. I'd mark a change for a translation, but I don't have the right to. Can you mark please? (Before fix was duplicated language code.) I asked on page Project:Requests for their award on April 7, just to be able to fix such small things myself, but I still waiting for it.

## Template:Lowercase

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This template is doing nothing since your last edit. Please reconsider your edit. Feel free to contact me if you need help.