Topic on Talk:Growth/2023

@Trizek (WMF): , Hi, I enjoy translating Growth Newsletter time to tome. I wish to convey you voices from jawp editors/users, mainly two points which tastes kind of sharp but the reality: There are inputs suggesting that providing News in full in foreign language is not a very wise choice, whichever WMF team initiates. If you want ppl to read and join you, please reconsider and perhaps tailor made the outreach to each local language and page you target.

The Growth Newsletter is a treasure trove, full of passionate reports and invitations, surely. But, maybe too big/too rich to publish on the present format, causing heart-burns? FYI, the Announcement page functions on jawp as a day-to-day bulletin board, very practical similar to old-fashioned, such like "lost-and-found". Could we make something as short as 200 words to introduce a new issue of Growth Newsletter?

I'll be frank to relay the murmurs of jawp editors.

• Growth Newsletter is too long and chokes other more practical announcements that needs attention for more concrete and urgent matters;
• Esp that Newsletter is not popular not inviting: why published in English on local page?
• When you do need to discuss further and in details, that is up to each reader. Do not nag in loud voice at me; If some group publish long long newsletter solely written in Japanese, are the enwp editors ready to accept such dis-manner?

We can publish shorter, Table_of_Contents type of circulars provided in local language. As much as the Newsletter is thought provoking, you need time to read. If TOC type of circular is published, and somebody finds a topic in it interesting, then they will set aside time to read the details. Don't we attract more insights in return on the talkpage, maybe? That way, at least it will be reader friendly publication. And at the most, that will open many doors across languages, I cross my fingers.

Good example is that from the Tech team (Tech News, published weekly). For the contents, we can't compare tech-related reports/announcements to what Growth team heads for, though, for readers, what is more handy?

Please take time and comprehend that each wiki needs Announcement pages for their own use, too.

Addendum: If I may translate the unspoken thoughts of jawp editors very plainly. "We are pushed into Knowledge Gap whenever we see lengthy announcement in English. Many teams of WMF tries to outreach through Announcement page. Surely, that and Village Pump is open to anybody including the Foundation, but actually the publication format unnerves ppl even to doubt the intention. Why is WMF utilizing jawp and its local hub of information as a dish to serve things in non-Japanese language? Are they sure ppl will spend time reading it with dictionary? No budget or resources for Knowledge equity? Squatting lines after lines in non-Japanese language is very rude in ja culture, because English is not a local language: it stands against the pride Wikipedia community holds in providing knowledge in native language."

IMHO, the above underlines the editors' discomfort, which we seldom tell somebody causing such situation, as taling back in English is not what ppl care. Dis-communication on the surface, but backed with cultural ethics. Let's look into how practically we convey the activities and resources the Newsletter delivers to people. I stand by the hours and researches each writer has poured into very rich content on each issue, and Newsletter should never contribute and have readers-to-be earmark "Growth-things", look away and negate. Ping me, and I'll try and find time to support TOC translation when you are ready.

@Omotecho thank you for spending the time to offer such detailed feedback!

I'm the Product Manager of the Growth team and I think a lot about how we can better involve and communicate with all of the wikis and languages we build products for. It's certainly a challenge to find the right level of detail for our communication, and ensure it's translated and properly localized!

We currently post more detailed Weekly Updates (which I see you've also helped translate - thank you!) and the Newsletter is meant to be a more widely shared and succinct overview of our work. However, based on your feedback, it sounds like we should aim to make the Newsletters even more succinct in the future and ideally make sure it is fully translated before it is shared.

Once @Trizek (WMF) returns, I'll discuss your feedback further with him and make sure it is also shared more widely with Wikimedia Foundation Community Relations Specialists. Our Community Relations Specialist team has a far deeper understanding of how to prepare and deliver multilingual newsletters than I do, so I imagine they may have other ideas for how we can improve communication.

Thanks again for taking the time to provide feedback! @Trizek (WMF) is working to improve the Growth team's communication strategy, so we will certainly use your feedback when considering improvements to how we communicate.

@KStoller-WMF: Appreciate so much for your prompt attention. Yes, please ping me anytime, and I will link you to the latest local discussion that if Wikipedia:Announcement/ja^※ should segregate any Newsletter or message from WMF staffer into a subpage.

That motion was turned down for knowledge equity on global standard, and IMHO not sure how long we opposers could hold back if the same proposal will be made, as the WMF input looks flooding lately, even to a bilingual person. Expecting that trend will accelerate makes me worry very much as on the US calendar, we are in Q3-FY2022 now.

Could we also cast a light on different Fiscal Year systems?

FYI, past the New Year’s holiday, our social calendar in Japan moves on to the last quarter for Fiscal Year 2022, or the Q4-FY2022, on an April-March calendar: I suppose the Foundation will be in the Q3-FY2022, June-May, and activities can be in fuller swing, much more to share globally than the previous Q2 (November 2022).

Such gap of time frame based on different Fiscal Year Calendar (FY), and how practitioners plan their workflow. On June-May FY system, I suppose you have more time to move things on in January, before the dawn/Q4-2022. On the contrary, Japan (and a few other countries/regions) is toward the deep night/recounting a year in Q4.

That suggests cases in Q4 workflow: discussions starting in Q4 with a non-Wikimedia partner/a public sector rather leave over a new agenda into future FYs in Japan. Then June, not April, will be when public offices and legislatures in Japan practically start the real work for, say FY2023. Because the Diet approves the Supplementary Budget for that FY by the last week of May.

Private sectors in Japan, including ja Wikimedia community and events/program organizers, and WMF Grantees, negotiate with public sectors and may need to set aside the waiting period April-May. You will be 100% sure official decisions is final and safe to give a go to local projects.

So going full circle, news needs to be fresh thus Newsletters are valued. Degrading factors such as FY systems might least affect "call for actions" go old or expired, if we plan timing and see how we pitch the ball (news) and hit, catch, and pass among us. I hope translation is a wide receiver mid-fielder to speak, enjoyable task if given enough time ahead. (※ = prefix "Wikipedia:" is applied on jawp; "Project:" on other /jp MW wikis, and enwp.)

Cheers,

Thanks again for the details!

I've asked the Senior Manager of the WMF Community Relations Specialists team to review your thoughts, since this is definitely an issue that is more global than the Growth team.

Some of our staff have already started a winter holiday break, so your concerns might not be reviewed until January 2023, but I'll be sure they are discussed with other WMF staff soon. Thank you for spending the time to pass along your feedback and concerns!

Hello @Omotecho, and thank you for sharing your feedback and ideas with us. Japanese Wikipedia has the reputation of being a difficult to reach community, so I'm happy that you share this feedback with us. Also, I'm sorry for the late reply, but I took some time off.

Your message reflects some feedback I already heard, regarding the length of our newsletter and its content. It is a challenge, and it is a challenge for all newsletters. Hence I will split my reply in to parts, one covering the overall newsletters' challenges, and the other covering Growth challenges.

Regarding newsletters challenges

Community Relations Specialists take care of newsletters. Since I joined, newsletters have been a challenge. Our goal is to provide newsletter in the best format, in the right length and with comfortable options for translations.

We get feedback in favor of all possible (and conflicting) options: longer or shorter newsletters, translated versus untranslated but in a simpler English contents (even if translated contents have more supporters), posting at community boards versus posting at individuals talk pages, etc. Even the most appreciated newsletter we care about, Tech News, get some conflicting opinions about its content. :)

What is the best option regarding English versus local language? Should we offer information in English, even if not everyone can get the information or is frustrated by it, or not posting at all if we don't cover the local language? I'm personally in favor of posting in English if no translation has been provided, as the important thing is to inform users.

An other question Community Engagement has is about translations. It is difficult to find translators, and communities complain about it as they get the messages in English, with no way to translate it in an easy way after posting. Also, if the newsletter has a short edition, or partially translated, or if it redirects to a page in English, will it suit all users' needs? Of course, we have received some suggestions around paying translators, but we have more than 300 languages to take care of, and prioritizing one over another may feel unfair.

We also have the question of the right place where to post. We observe community pages that are full of announcements and newsletters, and we have no clue if the contents are read. We also have some communities asking us to post at a given page, knowing that it is a dead end as nobody goes there. So I like a lot the fact that you contacted us to improve the contents!

I took good note of the quarters' cultural differences. This is something I'll carefully consider on further publications. This is typically the king of feedback we look for. WMF fiscal year starts in July. It might be different and not standardized: I asked my relatives about their businesses, and they start their fiscal year respectively in October and January (case of businesses in France). The important point is to tell when the year starts, or to offer better timeframes. Instead of saying "In fiscal year Q3..." we should write "Starting in January...".

Regarding Growth newsletter

As @KStoller-WMF mentions, we are refining our communication strategy. We look for feedback and we test new approches.

One of the changes is the Highlights section in the newsletter. The goal is to have the essential information being displayed for users who just skim the newsletter. Maybe we could only send this short version to users who'd like to get the most important news? We have to find a good balance as we also hear from people who like the level of detail we provide. Out of curiosity, how would you summarize the latest Growth newsletter in 200 words?

We are also want to know more about our target audience. We want to inform experienced editors primary. We have two kind of users we'd like to target: the ones who care about newcomers, and the ones who are curious about changes we provide to newcomers' first steps. I'm taking the opportunity here to ask you about these users (of course without putting aside the rest of the conversation): are they profiles we can find at Japanese Wikipedia? Could they be interested by a conversation about which information they look for? Also, is Wikipedia:お知らせ/ウィキメディア共通 the right place to post the Growth newsletter?

As a conclusion (for now)

I'm really curious about any other feedback or idea you might have, so as on-wiki conversations you could share with us. We look for feedback to improve our services, and this conversation is promising. Again, thank you very much for starting it.

Happy New Year to you and your team! Right, I also share the many challenges Growth team has looked into, as I am saddened how ja community distances thmeselves from the Community sphere as if we are a loner, even in the 2020s. I appreciate you have come up with the Forum where any language is accepted, and wish it will live long.

The discomfort that ringers in ja community.

IMHO, one thing is that jawp is a group of writers and editors, period. Many inputs from WMF (news/newsletters/notices etc) are felt as coming _down_ to bother writership, misunderstood as the act of bureaucracy (pardon me for the sharp taste).

• There is a ja expression, "上位下達" (jōi katatsu) that somebody/something on a very high parch drops anything down out of the blue, regardless of how the downstairs' residences appreciate/dislikes;
• Obviously, free riding, or piggybacking on WMF servers does not irritate your feeling of fairness in ja culture, thus prevents you to think about your share is what you care and act for. (sigh)

How WMF has began walking with each community/Hubs, and I wish it will be appreciated how it will make our editorship/readership sustain and extend. Well, naturally, it involves much reading assignments: newsletters in en floods your inboxes, no way to catch up the volume if you are so thrilled to edit/write encyclopedia.

Wikipedia:お知らせ/ウィキメディア共通

literally, the subpage is a ja:announcement:wikimedia_subjects, to save space for jawp specific topics/action items.

• those who care about how ja community will sort out newsletters has decided to arrange the inbox into multiple layers. That is hoped to yield the negative feelings soiling how information is shared:
• Important and friendly message from WMF teams are buried and choked because of the total volume; the volume is not functioning to extend knowledge, rather ends up WMF teams competing for attention, no winner;
• on top of that, at the moment, the subpage kind of looks like a closet that things are thrown in at random; you can't dig out your favorite raincoat;
• if the newsletters are easily sorted, not by the readers, but by the posters. Icons? Color bands on its headline? Visual identity might help readers stop ignoring easily, go harvest their pick and become regular supporters.

Disorientation about how WMF and its reams are laid0out;

Does WMF has a simplified chart of teams/departments, or can we offer a navbox type of sorter? In Japanese society, we always look for charts how an institution or NPO lays out its sections;

• If you imagine the diagram laying out 10 metro lines posted above metro ticket vending machines in Tokyo. Maybe we could mend the disoriented feeling to how WMF functions day-to-day. Myself, too, loves to know the directory, not as a chart of power, but rather to save time and find the better reception desk where I will consult.
• How about categorizing newsletters to specific topic of interest? Digging into the mass of newsletters is not handy without proper cues. Esp when you are a writer/editor much more used to look at the page bottom and care about the categories. I guess it involves community discussion locally and name categories or not?

200 words' newsletter

As a translator, my analog sense of word count is bound by 200-400-600 and so forth to translation source in en: it will fit to approx. 400 characters in ja the maximum, even when I embed translator's note to terminology. 400 characters are a volume you digest and comprehend the contents as a reader with out too much pain;

• the Tech News wisely fits its word count into the range of short memory circuit I guess; like giing external or interwiki links, can't we engineer our newsletters that way? For Growth newsletter, we have TOC page separate from the full-length one, and that TOC will function well to fit short memory circuit, that the essence of each issue will reach to wider readers: novice/Junior and hardcore/passionate but searching for what you can do; to Senior and believe you know the map, rather hesitate to try newer path, but somehow confident you will lead the way if the input is translated.

What I wish to change will be: I wish to catch up before those notices arrive on ja communities in raw form, or in en; you can bring a horse to the riverbank, but can't force it to drink, you know...

• many notices are yet to be perceived as a chance to tell what you feel, even though more meetings invites you with interpreters/pre-posted list of agenda; offered in en, then instantly counted out as another thing "not mine", and unread, rot (archived).

Basic understanding of how we all support the Wikimedia is less comprehended in ja community as I see;

• some clutch their arms and very much sound as if preaching new comers that you don't go near WMF-ish things, as they came _after_ Wikipedia came into our world;
• it might have looked/sounded cool (in the 2010s), but no more, as I eyewitness more newcomers to jump over the fence and reach out to Meta or Mediawiki;
• too bad that those jumped into wider Wikimedia sphere stumbles as the common/standard language, English, is a too wide a ditch in front of you.

Even after newsletters be offered in translation, it might not change drastically how ja community members are motivated to read more input from WMF. A jawp editor/writer is too afraid to allow themselves and spend time reading things not directly contributes to the article page(s), in which you pour your free hours to comb and brush up. How can we change that superstitious thinking pattern? What can we sell better to those picky buyers of information?

if the newsletters are easily sorted, not by the readers, but by the posters. Icons? Color bands on its headline? Visual identity might help readers stop ignoring easily, go harvest their pick and become regular supporters.

The problem with any visual distinction is that if a wiki doesn’t have a separate page for newsletters (most wikis don’t have, they’re just thrown on village pumps), these visually distinguished messages sent by some outsiders (from the wiki’s point of view) are much more prominent than messages sent by users of the given wiki, specifically aimed at users of that wiki. What could work is wrapping the message in MediaWiki messages that don’t do anything by default, but can be locally overridden to provide styling, like

{{MediaWiki:wikimedia-newsletter-start|growth}}
...
{{MediaWiki:wikimedia-newsletter-end|growth}}

(these two messages need to be defined as empty in the WikimediaMessages extension). Japanese Wikipedia could override them to respectively open and close a colored <div> (or add an icon in the opening one or whatever you want).

Hello

A quick update about these topics: as we will improve the Growth team's communication strategy, the ideas and suggestions shared here will be tested when possible. To be continued. :)

A new issue is ready for translation.

We tried to keep it short.

With this newsletter, we test a solution to reach more translators. We offer a new option for translators to be informed of a new issue, by receiving a message directly on their talk page. Please signup for next issues!

Finished the latest issue, and wow, very crisp to read/translate! I sense much editorship was needed to condense the important issues and topics into that length, which is scientifically very handy to read: think about how ppl will open your newsletters on the way to office, as Tokioan workers spends 45-80 minutes on train (;

And appreciate so much you showed translators-to-be that they are wanted. Kindly ping me if your analysis between how ja community readers are motivated to read on, clicking links in the digest newsletter. Arigatō.

BTW, Do we put "xyz minutes' read" kind of teaser? I bump into such strategy more often, and in WMF circle too. Very wise. Cheers,

Thank you for your feedback, but you were the one who gave is the ideas we implemented. :) If you want to be pinged for the next issue when ready for translations, please signup here.

We don't gather data on how many people read, from where they are, etc. The only way we have to know if an issue is read is when we get follow-up questions, or when we observe community discussions, or community changes.

Reading the "xyz minutes' read", we never considered it as our audiences are very broad. It would be up to translators to guesstimate a reading time. And even with a guess, it would be very imperfect. For instance, I read English less faster than a native speaker. And I know some users who read the newsletter in a language that is not their first or even second language. Reading times are definitely irrelevant for them; it could actually impress them and make them feel dumb because they need three to four times the needed time -- it is not what we want to do.

Please please do some market research considering newsletters and how much they are read. Or casual chat at Wikimania in Singapore? IMHO among NPOs like one for the wild birds, they put a one-minute quiz or enquette time to time: it is to get the general idea how the readership perceives/enjoysthe contents, to scale the impact versus the energy to edit and publish newsletters.

Thank you @Trizek, very interesting insight regarding the reading time.

My understanding syncs with yours as I am also not a native English speaker/reader either, and still, reading time given towards native readers just makes me judge: if the writer has considered how busy the readers are and/or it needs hook to - grasp hearts of readers. As far as it is titled a newsletter, details will be linked and all I need is headlines with good summary.

Lengthy ones are called reports, aren't they? (; As far as newsletters are a kind of love letter/job report, we need to grasp our readers at the first "blow".

Of course, not 100% of us users/editors, though if you allow me share you my personal view, I don't mind reading lengthy reports or academic theses as word count does not signal too negative contents or intention to cover up unwelcome news. But the lengthier the public post named "news"...

Actually, I now realize how my eyeglasses have been tinted with those Japanese public posts by public offices titled newsletters. If I need to scroll down too many times, that signals some thing negative has been covered up misusing the community resources they have demanded for the job.

Foundation and us:

Cultural thing. Kindly consider that in some culture including that in East Asia, anything named with a "Foundation" tends to, either horseback racing or children's book or free knowledge frontline, makes esp ja peers sense they need to be protective being in a structure of power: It's an instinct telling us we are not on the top layer but downstairs, practically necks will ache looking upstairs. I am glad that purist mindset has been changing among ja wikis. And hope less ppl will panic at posts in non-ja language on the Village Pumps/ja or Announcements/ja...

My motive to translate things from and to anything English is to expand chances to my peers and understand we are together on the bandwagon named Wikimedia Movement. And my hunch tells me I am facing the same direction with you, Trizek, using our second language. Very Movement-oriented !^o^! Have a nice day, cheers,

I like the idea of making some market research about newsletters, in the context of the Wikimedia movement.

We would certainly discover that one would like to keep the newsletter short, whine an other would really prefer to have muche more details, or the case of users complaining because the language is too simplistic or too complicated. And probably many more contradictions, on which we would have to find the right balance... Without proper

I'd love to have time to work on this, but time for out of annual plans projects is a rare commodity.

This is where community members can step in and offer their help. It is another way to participate to the movement's life. And it is easier for me or my colleagues to assist a project like this than leading it from start to finish.

Yes, I owe you a cup of good coffee for all your thoughtful relies. We are lucky bumping into Community Wishlist Survey, yey! I will brainstorm myself and offer my cup of coffee there. Cheers,

@Omotecho @Trizek (WMF)

(Hi Trizek, I'm Junko, an MSG facilitator for the Japanese language since the very late 2022)

I have read through the interesting discussion, nodding frequently to both of your comments. And I obviously don't have any solution, I just wanted to throw in my perspective as a Japanese WMF staff who is also a newbie to the world of Wikimedia.

Survey would definitely be helpful to understand the readers and their needs for improve the contents and how they are presented. I also think that there's another challenge that perhaps many of the main target readers have not found the newsletter in the first place. Seeing that a lot of effort is made in editing and translating the newsletter, it would foremost be in the best interest that the newsletter is read by those who can appreciate the contents, and that number being as many as possible.

The biggest challenge for me so far in Wikimedia is that I feel I am always overwhelmed and lost in this vast ocean of text information. To be honest, I've found out about this newsletter thanks to Omotecho but otherwise, not sure when and how I would have found my way here. So I can easily imagine a similar scenario for many of the newcomers.

I wish there is "a world map" like thing where you can have a bird's eye view style glance and get a grasp of simply, "what is where". Making a map of the entire Wikimedia world would probably be unrealistic, but just the major projects including this newsletter which newcomers can benefit from?? (afterall, "treasure hunt maps" never show thorough information)

The Wikimedia is a world full of adventures, and I think more newcomers can venture out and enjoy the treasure hunt if there's a map to get them started (then again, maybe it already exists and I just don't know about, it which is something that happens constantly ;)