Topic on Project:Village Pump

Problem 1: On the translated pages, the transcluded screenshots are the EN ones which is not consistent with what the localised text describes and what the user sees on his screen. For example on FR page https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:TemplateData/fr which describes the interface in french, I see File:Manage template documentation button for TemplateData 2014.png which is the EN interface. Proposal 1: unlock the hardcoded image names where possible (when they hold translatable text) in translate tags in the root file to translate.

Problem 2: naming; are there rules for naming the new derived images ? On COMMONS i see 'File:Manage template documentation button for TemplateData 2014.png' I make a clone 'File:Manage template documentation button for TemplateData 2014 fr.png' with the corresponding FR screenshot but how could we name (syntax) the files of this family ?

Thanks

Christian 🇫🇷 FR (talk) 12:13, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Problem 1:

Yes, please do this. It is highly desirable to have screenshots in many languages, especially for Help: pages and high-traffic pages.

Problem 2:

AFAIK there are no written rules. My personal preference is to:

• name the extension/software at the beginning
• use English for the file names
• use the same file names for all similar images (just add the language code towards the end)
• put the date/year towards the end

For example, using the file you mention, I would probably write this for the file name:

• File:TemplateData Manage template documentation button 2014.png
• File:TemplateData Manage template documentation button fr 2022.png

Sometimes I might write "fr 2014" and other times I might write "2014 fr". IMO it is best for en to be in the first file name as well, although I tend to forget unless I'm making screenshots in several languages at the same time. IMO the year should be the year that you made the screenshot, which means new screenshots are "2022" even if they look the same as the 2014 screenshot.

Also, most screenshots should get two categories on Commons: one for the software (e.g., c:Category:TemplateData documentation) and one for the language (e.g., c:Category:Screenshots with French).

If you don’t put anything after the language code, and don’t vary the year (if included) across languages, {{LM}} can be used to automatically translate the screenshot if it’s uploaded. This way, translators don’t need to touch (and potentially break) file names, but readers still get a translated file whenever possible.

It looks like that template wants "2014 fr" (with identical names except for the language code).

yes - see my conclusion below. If we remove the year from the name, the advantage is that always the more recent uploaded translated file will be considered.

Christian 🇫🇷 FR (talk) 14:30, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Ok thanks, sounds good. So I do image transclusion as ->[[{{lm|Manage template documentation button for TemplateData 2014|png|_}}|453px]]. and this means that 'File: .....2014 en' or 'File: .....2014 fr' will be selected automatically -> ok.

Problem: if we include the year in the title i.e change last snapshots into 'File: .....2022' (and this is hardcoded in the root file holding the 'translate' tags) it will suppose that all languages have made their alignement on 2022 which is rarely the case. New images will effectively match 2022 but other snapshots of the same image can still be those of 2014. How to solve that ?

I think I've seen some pages here where images could be translated, but I don't remember what pages and how was that done...

SVG images can be translated (text in the actual image). Was that what you were thinking of? Or were you thinking of pages like Help:VisualEditor/User guide, which change the image to match the language?

Ah, thanks. I was talking about that page. It uses the {{lm}} template, that automatically includes the localized image if it exists.

This approach is easy when marking the page for translation, because translating a file name often may lead to people translating its text, causing a broken image. But on the other hand, it's hard to discover that you can actually upload a translated image (and with what name), and it uses expensive parser functions, which is problematic on pages with many images

Theoretically, the multilingual screenshots for Help:VisualEditor/User guide are being generated by a bot. However, I haven't checked that bot for a couple of years, so I don't know whether it's still working.

a bot ? humm interesting ... I will have a look later on VE FR generated shots, after I complete TemplateData rereading.

Christian 🇫🇷 FR (talk) 20:50, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

It's c:User:LanguageScreenshotBot. It looks like it hasn't run for nearly two years now.

It can only do "empty page" screenshots. It can't do anything showing content that has been typed in the page/in a dialog box.

I have resumed the different positions, please comments considering the following situation:

the initial page is written in EN with 2 snapshots : one for button ("button 2019 en.png") and one for the form ("form 2019 en.png") as displayed in the EN GUI , both files being referenced as 2019 in Commons.

Then this EN page has been updated with new contents to fit 2022 GUI aspect where the button is unchanged but the form contains more items and the author provides in Commons new files "button 2022 en.png"  and "form 2022 en.png".

Proposal:
1. GUI unchanged -> keep old image
If the image is unchanged then keep the old existing reference; as "button 2022 en.png" duplicates  "button 2019 en.png" you must delete "button 2022 en.png" and reference "button 2019 en.png" in the EN root page before translate. This is in charge of the person who modifies the EN root page to keep coherence between text contents and image.

2. GUI modified -> use new snapshot
Replace the 2019 reference by 2022 one;  as the form has changed, transclude now "form 2022 en.png" instead of "form 2019 en.png" in the EN root page before translate. 

3.With translators
The image name must be included into 'translate' tags to warn the translator  that the image has changed.

a. if image has not changed: there is no warning for an obsolete message -> ok, as today, nothing to do.

b. if the image has changed, translator replaces "form 2019 en.png" by "form 2022 fr.png" (or other according to his own language). ThIs makes him conscient that such a snapshot should exists. Two cases : 

b1. If file "form 2022 fr.png" exists on Commons -> ok, nothing to do.

b2. If file "form 2022 fr.png" doesnt exist on Commons, two cases :

b21. The translator creates the snapshot himself and uploads it on Commons; this is easy because GUI appears already in his own language 

b22. If it is impossible because of certain cases (GUI admin, extensions not installed on MediaWiki...), then translator can request for internal help

4. Using template LM and fallback process

What we want is to use image "form 2022 fr.png" when it exists. If not, following fallback should apply: "form 2022 fr.png" > "form 2022 en.png" > "form 2022.png" . We stop there because we know that  "form 2022 en.png"  or "form 2022.png" exist due to the coherence of EN root file.

You should use template LM which already implements these functions. 

Of course we can call directly "form 2022.png" in the root EN source to translate - which makes the process completly automatic - but the translator will not be warned that a snapshot "form 2022 fr.png" must be provided.

5. Problem referencing of the snapshot by year

Sure a reference of the image should exist and it is rather a reference of the version linked to the contents. Here we have chosen the year.It is discriminant enough if the GUI is not modified more often. 

6. Translation via svg update

It is a good idea but is risky:

a. manual processing  :
a1.  I download file "form 2022 en.png" provided by the author 
a2.  I search and translate the corresponding strings
a3.  I upload file "form 2022 fr.png"
a4. -> not reliable due to manual intervention

b.automatic process :
b1. update "form 2022 en.png" replacing the strings by their translated version (from translatewiki.net, wikidata .... ?)
b2. -> not reliable  : manual correction should be possible to correct the gaps.

=> I would prefer the manual capture of screen which reflects direcly what the GUI displays.

Thanks for reading, please leave comments.

Christian 🇫🇷 FR (talk) 07:59, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Bingo! just tried on -> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:TemplateData/fr

it works ! -> FR screenshots appears now (based on those already existing).

Christian 🇫🇷 FR (talk) 20:45, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Yay!