Topic on Project:Village Pump

Continue from 2 earlier segments, with various arguments between:

Section-3:

11. consider we are living post 1977, and all citizens are aware of the word ‘ computer ‘. Even they, how many would know that the “ famous 3 first Black women “ who worked in in the World War II effort in Usa were called the “ Black computers “ ? But moving forward, someone starts writing sentences with “ laptop, tablet, PDA “, and along comes kiran gopi redlining all sentences and paragraphs with these words, saying “ normal use requires ‘ computer ‘; doesn’t read right “

12. I would like to offer the analogy of a car. Most citizens would readily open doors, and hatch, use the glove compartment, fill up with gasoline and drive the vehicle. Open the hood, and the users drop from 100% to 15% say. Citizens may even be confused between brake and transmission fluids, or even how/where to check the oil. Don’t even ask about fixing the thermostat, changing belt timings, cleaning the distributor cap, changing engine oil. I believe kiran gopi has opened the hood at MediaWiki. It is the engine for wikipedia, as self-stated.

The “ Developer Hub “ page was effort for me in August 2020. In some parts, start with a reference paragraph using ‘ dbms ‘. Now we arrive at ‘ rdbms ‘ which evolves to Oracle, Postgres, MySql, Microsoft SQL server ( 3 are no long supported by MediaWiki about 1.34). Sure, why not leave the whole thing in EN, and say “ translation done “. Or is there a way to wordsmith for the ml-reader who has to slowly come to grips with all this astonishing technology. What is Java, javascript, jQuery. In EN we coolly use API, FAQ, IRC, URL. What does each word mean in A, P, I ? --So now I have ml-equivalents as ‘ lapaa, paco ( last two letters as in ‘ oh ‘ and ‘ cho ‘ in chose ) ( roughly ), amaasam ‘. Now imagine working on the entire page, instead one reference paragraph.

13 Next, a good side kicker. In EN we have developed locales ( 14, across the world ) “ en-GB, en-US, en-AU, en-IN “. Celtic cel, Gaelic gd ( language, between separated territory Ireland, Scotland ), but en-AU and en-NZ are adjacent territories, Irish ( en-IE), Welsh cy, Scottish sco, etc. is no problem at all. In FR we have 15 locales.

Now to ml. Just ml ? What about “ ml-no, ml-mi, ml-so “ ( roughly North, Middle, South ). Seriously. The single word “ kotta “ ( roughly ) means “ woman’s rump “ in ml-so, and “ basket “ in ml-no. Let’s stick with just ml-no for a moment. The single word “ chaada “ ( roughly ) means “ throw away “ in the north territory, and “ jump “ in the south territory. Let us not forget a need for “ ml-ar “ for the generations of ML speakers settled in the middle east of a confluence of Arab states.

14. A lot of companies at the end of services or support ask for rating feedback, 0 is bad, 10 is good.

Here is my rating for kiran gopi as “ translation administrator “ for:

--general translation: 8 ( guess )

--technical translation 4 ( estimate )

Does the Wiki family need more specificity in assigning user rights in this rights-area ?

Separately, there were a few points from kiran gopi: about 2 referred names whose work I could study, to familiarize myself with translation ml before translating, etc. I have a quick analysis of some work by the two, and other comments. If I have the time or further interest in this matter I may present some of that. It is not nearly as long as this effort.

My User Page is written in ml, I answered his very first query (in en) in ml, which is more than himself has done, or the other two desirous blockers have done. Is my ml that bad really ? And several other pages done by me are up there. They should have been deleted by now. Probably are. ( to be continued, to the last section) ~~~~

The mistakes in userpage is not auditable. Because it is a userpage. But for the other pages we are responsible for mistakes. In your userpage you said that മലയാളം: കുറച്ചു കുറവാണു. എന്നാലും ശ്രമിക്കുന്നു. So you are not an expert in this language. വിക്കിയിമ്പി is a clear non existing word. And don't do Original research here. There is no world in Malayalam language like this. ഈ വിക്കിയിമ്പി പണിയെടുക്കുമ്പോൾ ചില ആവശ്യപ്പെടുന്ന ആചാരങ്ങൾ. Means the rituals required to do work with വിക്കിയിമ്പി (something i dont know). en-GB, en-US, en-AU, en-IN are the country wise locale. We don't have ml-no, ml-mi, ml-so beacuse the state have one official single Malayalam language. There are lot of dialects but they are not official or recorded and structured by Malayalam University or Langauge division in Governement of Kerala. So we cannot use dialects in translating Mediawiki into Malayalam. You can find the most used words in Malayalam technical translation on Malayalam Fuel project. These words are created, discussed and finalized by technical and research people those who handle Malayalam language. Your dialects not fit in proper places. Only thing I can do is do a peer review of your translation with PhD students or professors in Malayalam Langauge. Also you can come to Malayalam Wikipedia and start an article there you can get more correct reviews of your work. So stop translating more pages otherwise the damage will be more. You said that Mediawiki is a highly technical corpus and the fact is that even computer scientists can get lost in some of the programming constructs. Can you give us some examples of this and how to handle it. Then I will try to audit your translation with some PhD students and Professors in Malayalam Lanaguage and try to rank it.

Dear Mediawiki admins, we discussed this issue in multiple threads (Topic:Vtczt8a9ccv7cuj6,Topic:Vtcr4vft6hx5yn0z, User talk:Arzoper), and active ml wiki contributors confirmed that user Arzoper translations are rubbish. Please warn him. Ml community doesn't want to chase behind Arzoper's contributions and correct the mistakes. Please see Arzoper's user talk page for the multiple warnings on the translations. For the last two days, we were working day and night to correct the mistakes, which is an overburden for us. I myself politely asked Arzoper to familiarize himself with the ml standards and he/she refused to do accept it and playing with technical idioms. User Arzoper pretending he/she is a computer scientist and doesn't respect other ml wiki contributors, who were contributing for many years. As Ranjithsiji already mentioned above, the user confirmed on their talk page that he/she is learning the language and start translating with original research. Requesting you to take necessary actions.

Final section:

15: < analyse kiran gopi’s > translation

Page being xlated: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.35/ml

1 This first point troubles me. It pains me. His translation has all these in en, on a short page.

API branch bundle checkout download foundation (example, wikimedia) editor (human) file fix https link release secure tag testing --( all these had translations by me, with the en in brackets, most of the time. ) Further, this is a problem on every IL, and many other world languages.

Next I will show a reverse translation. Very likely NO en-speaking and knowing person in the world from <any>-locale will understand this English. ( The ml-text of it could have been given in Latin alphabet but was written this way to make it instantly obvious to the eye, such as we see in bolding, highlite color, etc.) Both context and meaning could be completely variable in the reader’s understanding. Here is the sample equivalent translation:

I went to the അങ്ങാടി but didn’t get what I wanted. The table had ഫലങ്ങൾ but they were not പാകമായിരുന്നില്ല . When returning by വണ്ടി, I noticed മൂന്നു് persons. Such is life in a world of ക്രചോഭാ, ക്രുചൂ, പചോ, ലപാ beauty and functionality бы computer പരിപാടി . (When they can’t type it, as in ‘ FAQ ‘, since there is no ‘ f ‘ in ml, they just type anything at all, say ‘ бы ‘, usually ‘ ഫ ph ‘.

In my opinion, it is better to have ml-translation with correctable errors than something of the above type.

2 Translation done entire - - ( having header, and 12 paragraphs )

( para 3 ) dropped ‘ incremental ‘

( para 4 ) dropped ‘ and ‘: “ release and branch cut “

( para 6 ) incorrect parameter ( assume untranslated template ): <ml text> for Release Notes

( para 7 ) correct, yet slanted meaning: ‘ follow ‘ => ‘ chase | drive out ( by hitting ) ‘, and even ‘ succeed ‘ --but an exact single meaning word ‘ anugamikka ‘ അനുഗമിക്ക was not used.

( para 9 ) “ extension “ => something like “ extended do of “ വിപുലീകരണം, rather long --in my wordsmith style, a different word, also ‘ extend becomes an actor, getting something done വ്യാപ്തിനി ‘ vyaaptini ‘ ( roughly ) shorter, cleaner for continuous re-use. The latter has an exact meaning of extension and could be made to look like the first one as വിപുലിനി ' vipulini ‘ ( roughly ) too,. The former in the current form is not an actor.

Unrelated to kiran gopi, here we can talk of another good example. The word ‘ user ‘ used in the ml-world, derived thru the “ learned people “ grasping for customer, one who consumes, leading to “ eating, enjoying of eating “ and finalize on a sub-version of this ( “upa “ ) to “ upa’bhokt’Avu “ ( roughly ). Reminds one of the early hi ( hindi ) attempts in the 1960’s for telephone as “ going pus-pus in the ear “ , ear being “ kaan “ ( roughly ) with “ kaan’pus’pus “. Let me not even mention what they did with ‘ railway ‘. It was nearly as long as the railway line itself. Incidentally, through kiran gopi’s reference persons I did see a shorter, more pleasing ഉപയോക്താവ് ' upa ‘yokt ‘aavu ‘ ( roughly ) which is much better.

Now I chose to use “ karta “ ( roughly ), wordsmithing wise, short and easy. Directly an ancient and essential word in grammar too as defining the Nominative case, of the Subject who does, used for author ( of books ) as “ kartaavu “ ( roughly ). Now if I must stick to someone else idea of the “ accepted “ and to familiarize oneself with what others write, as kiran gopi suggested to me, it means I may have to do what others are doing wrongly. Just saying. They may be right. But with his views there is no way for a new direction, path, or even philosophy of translating for the technical MediaWiki

( para 9 ): “ core “ => unrecognized ml-word കാമ്പി kaampi ( roughly ), in any dictionaries

I recently accessed.

( para 9 ): unfortunately the EN itself is incorrect, as “ as it is will built into MediaWiki core “

has been correctly (?) translated to: “ has been built in… “

( para 9 ): ‘ separate ‘ => ‘ especially ‘

--though equivalent meaning of ‘ separate ‘ does exist, a simpler more common

word ‘ vere ‘ ( roughly ) exists.

( para 9 ): ‘ instance ‘ => form ( with indeed say equivalents {the common ones of ‘ model

| speciment | pattern ‘ being problematic } ) --good wordsmithing is required here.

( para 9 ): ‘ template ‘ മാതൃക maatraka ( roughly ) => palette ( for painters, colors ) | table ( as with 4-legs, plank, bench )

--but my word is a powerful look-alike മാതൃ maatra ( roughly ) to what he uses

( is wordsmithing) with a prefix to convey ‘ template ‘ more closely രൂപ-മാതൃ

( para 10 ): ‘ API ‘ => “ evi “, without any indicator that it is EN abbreviation, nor any clarity

what itmight be, further written as a ml-word pluralized ( hardly suitable translation I

think ) --with that technique his earlier ‘ PHP ‘ written as ‘ pee.ecc.pee ‘ should have

been written as string “ peeeccpee ‘ ( a shorter “ php “ belieive it or not, പഹപ could

have been written – I have not done or used this wordsmithing yet, though it could be handy )

--this last എവികൾ, written as ml-word ( say any meaning, goat | marble | stick ) but

in fact no such ml-word exists ( could be typo failure leaving out ‘ I ‘ portion, and using

വ v instead of പ p )

--my work provides the indicator, and the equivalent ml, and the ml abbreviation

( para 10 ): wrong meaning: ‘ data ‘ => ‘ information ‘

16. Final recommendation:

Please remove/lower the rights of kiran gopi of/from Translation Administrator in the wikis MediaWiki, and Wicktionary.

I reiterate that kiran gopi, adithya1997, ranjithsiji bypassed the role of mentoring, and advice so easily. ( None of them had been working on the MediaWiki before ). They need to learn a different approach.

Perhaps it would be nice if someone in MediaWiki Admin can tell me whether or not I may contribute translations given kiran gopi’s initial quick and harsh response. Actually, as I send this, I have read Leaderboard’s decision, and I abide by that, and will not be making ml translations. ~~~~

I have understood your last paragraph that you will not make any translations. But before that, you have given some false information. For that, I think I need to provide a reply.

"കാമ്പി kaampi ( roughly ) maatraka ( roughly ) ...... You have used the word roughly 11 times in your command. This shows that you are guessing these items and have zero knowledge in this language. If it was something in English, I think there were many users who can comment to your allegations mentioned here. But unfortunately, there are not many editors who see these edits being made here.

"The word ‘ user ‘ used in the ml-world, derived thru the “ learned people “ grasping for customer, one who consumes, leading to “ eating, enjoying of eating “ and finalize on a sub-version of this ( “upa “ ) to “ upa’bhokt’Avu “ ( roughly )." - I am not trying to traceback how each of the words have been derived. It might be the job that needs to be done by the historians. I am using the word ഉപയോക്താവ് as a translation for User because I have been using it for years.

"I reiterate that kiran gopi, adithya1997, ranjithsiji bypassed the role of mentoring, and advice so easily. ( None of them had been working on the MediaWiki before ). They need to learn a different approach." - None of them had been working on Mediawiki might be true. In my case, I have made only a total of 2000 edits here. Now, a user doesn't need any working experience here, he only needs to know the specific language. In the case of Ranjithsiji, he is a wiki trainer who has taken classes for many and is also the lonely bureaucrat of Malayalam Wikipedia (the Wikipedia version of the language for which you made rubbish translations). Kiran Gopi - yet another admin, who has a minimum of 10 years in Malayalam Wikipedia. How can you ignore the advice mentioned by them? There is yet another prime reason that you must follow them - they are the native users of Malayalam language. You can ping any of the users from Malayalam Wikipedia and ask them whether they have any other opinion than what we have mentioned. 'Please remove/lower the rights of kiran gopi of/from Translation Administrator in the wikis MediaWiki, and Wiktionary.' - According to his language experience which can be confirmed by the edits made by him, the request needs to be rejected. Thank you

Dear adithya1997,

Language can be a poor vehicle sometimes.

Your concern about my use of ' roughly ' went off on a completely wrong tangent that " clearly proves i DON'T know ml '. But my purpose in using it had NOT crossed your mind, which was that for NON-ml people, seeing the script, they may NOT know what ഗുഹ is, for example, so i was writing for their benefit ' guha ' ( roughly ). The exact pronounciation may not come thru as we write the ml-script in the Latin alphabet. That was the reason. Mmm...

if i understand rightly, Wikipedia is NOT MediaWiki. You have referred to them as the same. In my long reply ( in sections, you may have missed my sentence " i would NOT translate for wikipedia, or ml.wikipedia ", giving some examples of matters, phrases that translators are busy working on. Sorry, adithya, just NOT my cup of tea. MediaWiki is, or shall i say was ( translation wise ) my interest. Mmm... ~~~~

Hi @Arzoper first of all your initiative in learning Malayalam language is appreciated, but most of all your translation here are not constructive and as a native Malayalam speaker i find it very difficult to understand what you have translated. The main objective of the translation itself is to make the communication of the meaning of a source language text to equivalent target language text. Here your translation doesn't convey what the source text it. Most of your translation has been triggered an abuse filter with tag 'Problematic translation' here. As you already mentioned in your user page (although the translation is poor there), that you have no knowledge of Malayalam language (or understands it with considerable difficulty), it makes other native Malayalam users to spent time to correct your problematic translation. In all language Wiki's there is a page called Manual of Style. In Malayalam Wiki also there is a similar page called ശൈലീപുസ്തകം. Kindly read that page in Malayalam Wiki (I think you can read and understand the Malayalam) and learn the basic usage of Malayalam language. It is a accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow while contributing. I think should follow the standards and contribute to Wikimedia projects. And at the least not related to your translation but in structured discussion pages you need not require to put your signature with 4 tilde (~~~~). Thank you

Dear Genoeee,

1 Of course i have been on MediaWiki translation for about 1.5 months. a) thru c). a) Initially, seeing the Links, i translated everything, till asking the problem of an Admin, they kindly explained, and my reading caught up with the issue. Basically translate after the pipe but NOT before. b) Sometimes the holder tag, say $url might be there, and i should NOT translate that, and may be did. c) Then along came templates, and me finding that i had translated a page, but looking, find portions not translated, That's how an Admin guided me to transclusions, etc. SO, pretty much AFTER that no " problematics ". Some translations waiting for confirmations were confirmed after my review.

2 Thanks for the links, en and ml, for Manual of Style. Had seen neither since i both are on Wikipedia, and i had entered directly into MediaWiki. Thanks for the tip.

3. i did NOT know to NOT sign. One of my earliest Admin connects had commented that i passed it through without the signing, which led me to believe i SHOULD sign. Hence the habit. So, here, now, not done. Till i clarify. For short term i can certainly go without signing. So thanks for that tip as well.