Hi, can you please delete the Developer hub/ml page. The page contains very poor translation and it is not in a good readable format.
Topic on User talk:Clump
Done.
What kiran gopi deems as poor translation may be because he is not a computer scientist but a translator. For example, you can read translations in any India language ( be, hi, ka, ml, ta, te ) say, to see (by change of script only) these words: extension, keyboard, program,, navigation, software, etc. and NOT just a few, but endlessly. Of course this does not constitute translation.
His suggestion to me that i " stop translating " is egregious, presumptive, and arrogant.
May i ask for a quick delete of all of his pages ? Not a kindly action i would think. i have not yet overwritten any other users' translations, but only added, usually within parens ' (...)'.
Should be start a new language variation then, called ' ml-arzo ', and one called ' ml-kiranG '. i think he should not dictate what his thoughts on " normal ml " would be. We should remember that IN in general is light years behind say Usa in computers, both hardware, and software. So his perception of ml for computers could be at the level of his comments at this stage.
This is merely a description, not any personal attack.
Yes, i could stop translating MediaWiki pages IF that is what you desire.
~~~~
Arzoper I am really sorry, if any of my statement directly or indirectly hurts you. I mean you to first familiarize with 'ml' sister projects on the usage before proceeding with any translations.For eg: the word 'Links' we commonly use on all sister project as "കണ്ണികൾ" but in Help:Links/ml it is translated as "തൂണ്ടികകൾ" which is not a common malayalam word, and I couldn't find the usage on Malayalam language. I may not be a computer scientist but as an ml-N user, for me the translations looks like word to word translation and we are missing the essence from the statements more over it looks like very artificial and has lot of misspelled words. If you are still not convinced with my statements, please visit below translations done by other ml users. Thank You.
Summary:
kiran gopi lost the opportunity to be a mentor.
kiran gopi was not able to leave matters alone, in subject areas he is less familiar with.
he could have left matters to new translators who “ could improve “ , for example typos, small word termination errors such as case endings, or even a line for grammar.
Wholesale redlining ( on many pages ) of what appeared incomprehensible or “ does not read right “ to him was uncalled for. And to delete a technically complex page “ Developer’s Hub “ was not good. See some examples below.
This being a long response, I will send it in pieces. My recommendation will be at the end.
Beginning:
1. MediaWiki has been around some 18 years I believe, but the Main Page, or links 1-down across the 5-panels on it had not been translated till I started.
2. Main Page having five panels, the pages I took to 100%, from Zero, 2%, 8%, ‘ P ‘ meaning panel below:
--P-2; P-3; P-4; P-1(80%); Main Page (97%).
2a. I have been at this translation as a beginner for 1.5 months beginning say 200725.
2b. One of the first paras I translated, in “ Help: editing “ was the line “ most important, whatever you do, aim for improving the wiki “. At another place I happened to see “ no one owns anything “.
2c. Other purposeful direction I took was to do one link down ( depth 2 ) from each of those panels
and think of the Sidebar. ( IL’s below refer to India languages ).
(P-1 down) Download → 68%, ahead of other IL’s
(P-2 down) Learn how to edit a page → 93%,
ahead of other IL’s
(P-3 down) Developer’ Hub, particularly technical: 0% → 100%;
No other intl’l lang had this. CH (zh) with much in EN ( names ), that is their practice,
and RU much in EN ( in their script, which is their language practice ), NO other IL’s
at all ! Though TK (turkish) was at 100%, and they do matters a bit like RU.
--deleted 200904 (per kiran gopi)
(P-4 down) Project: Support desk/Header → 100%,
NO other IL’s here, and few languages at all. Surprisingly even RU absent.
Sidebar:
- - -Main Page
Get Mediawiki = P-1: Download → 68%, noted above
Get Extensions, started → 17%,
Contributions, started → 49%
- - -Support
User Help 17% → 85%
FAQ → started → 49%
- NO other IL’s here
Technical manual = Manual: Contents → (was ) 100%?
- deleted 200906 (per kiran gopi) --action: shirayuki.
Support desk → 100%
Communication → 17%
Remaining not done.
3. His reference to proper translators handling ‘ link ‘, using “ kanni… “ ( roughly) versus my “ choondika “ (roughly):
--in fact his suggestion becomes: loop, join --with some equivalents of ‘ loop ‘ meaning button ( common use example, on shirts ). Imagine the possibilities for ‘loop’ in all of our programming languages.
--mine becomes: pointer ( and we have note here hypertext protocol ‘ link ‘ is a possibility as well as the famous ‘ C ‘ language pointer ).
4. His record is massive with translations done over 11-years, we see near 50K,
--ml.wikipedia 30K
--wikidata 10K
--commons.wikimedia 4.5K
--ml.wikiquote 2K
--en.wikipedia 655
--meta 365
--mediawiki seems Zero joined 200906
In fact my spotting (from MediaWiki) an ‘ in ‘ ( all of India ) link failure at wikipedia may have started this ball ( last line above ) rolling. The link is on my discussion page at: https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Arzoper&action=edit§ion=3, where I then reference ‘ ml.wikipedia ‘as working nicely. Whereupon I was co-opted by a notification as the same User therein. But I did not put in a password then, and so I am unable to get in now. Also I am not translating wikipedia in the least bit.
5. In MediaWiki, which is a highly technical corpus, even if ordinary sentences may be routinely found, the fact is that even computer scientists can get lost in some of the programming constructs. ( to be continued ) ~~~~
@Arzoper You have praised a lot about Kiran Gopi. May I ask you something. Do you think there is any difference between English and Malayalam? I am a native user of Malayalam language and knows English also. According to me, Kiran is, at present one of the most editing users in Malayalam Wikipedia (another project by Wikimedia Foundation). This is not mentioned to praise him, instead its to show that he is having an experience than you. 'kiran gopi was not able to leave matters alone, in subject areas he is less familiar with.' (quoted from your comment) - Even if he is less familiar, he used to leave it, or else he might try to edit it and will most probably might ask to users who can help him with to review his edit. But what you have done is that you have made changes that are not at all acceptable by someone who knows Malayalam. This edit shows the proof of what I have mentioned. How can FAQ be replaced by പചോ? There is no such word at all. It's similar to providing 'hite' as the abbreviation for 'highly technical'. Will you be able to accept such an edit if it is being done by someone else? Sometimes you might accept it, but will not be accepted by anyone. You have mentioned in your User page that you are trying to study Malayalam. If you are studying in this way, you will be blocked for doing blunder edits. Thanks and have a nice day.
Ah, thank you for your note, adhitya. It brings up certain slip-up points, and Ok points.
1 glad you notice my praise of kiran gopi. Rather an analysis of work done, got more or less by chance.
Your comment as if self sufficient about " one of the most experienced " i don't fully accept because a change of context can throw all experience out of whack. You know how to dig, but if i request that you dig an oil well, or dig a foundation hole in sandy soil for a large building you might be lost.
2 Do remember what my note said, about his 11 years work on wikipedia to 1.5 months of me on MediaWiki. Any thoughts on why No One was translating MediaWiki in ml for 18 years ?
3 Do you know when you first ever read FAQ, IRC, NBSP, URI vs URL, you get the idea. We have a language of abbreviations if we were inclined to it. Somebody outside programming and computers might understand nothing at all.
4 One relevant point might be: Project:Support desk/Header when i first translated FAQ, having IRC too. Now see the ml translation, by good fortune i did it perfectly on IRC, so a new ML can see ' aamaasam ' ( what the heck is that ! ) like your question on ' paco ', where the ml words were written out, then ' IRC ' tacked on in ml. Wouldn't you say ?
5 When it came to FAQ just a bit lower, i completely failed to do this. And it comes up again on the Sidebar link ' FAQ ', likewise missed. So yes, it is my error. But as i progressed in translation, i was pretty much adding such explanations everywhere. So if ML's liked these new fangled ideas they would accept it, else it dies. Sort of like ' perl ' programming, eh ?
6 FAQ = പതിവുള്ള ചോദ്യങ്ങൾ, ' pativulla codyangal ' ( roughly ) -> paco.
7 Do i think en and ml are the same ? If they were, together with other languages of the world, there would not be a Unicode Consortium, etc. shall we say. Directly, the answer: No.
Look how the people of Debian, Ubuntu, FSF, Stallman, open source went toward the people of the world. Are ML's going to even ML's ?
But should we leap forward in these technologies ? Yes.
Should we be thankful to people of MediaWiki, wikipedia etc. who are giving these unbelievable gifts to the world ? Yes, very much.
Should we work together, and for me, MediaWiki in particular, as hinted at my User Page ? Yes.
i hope i have answered most of your thoughts. i shall in a few minutes update the two locations of ' paco ' : ). Regards ~~~~
ക്രുചൂ (എന്നാൽ ക്രമീകരിച്ച ഉപായം ചുണ്ടിനി, ' യൂ.ആർ.എൽ ') there is no word or phrase in Malayalam Langauge so don't try to do original research here. പാക്കോ is not a short form or phrase found in Malayalam Langauge. Please stop writing rubbish thing in pages. URL must be യു.ആർ.എൽ not a ക്രൂചൂ.
ചുണ്ടിനി Return only one result in the whole google search and it is this page. So don't do original research here.
അധിക ഗതാഗതി ഗണക തപാൽ-പട്ടിക <- What is this thing means ? I cannot follow.
FAQ is not pativulla codyangal it is പതിവു ചോദ്യങ്ങൾ and never end as പചോ. And there is no custom of making shortforms in Malayalam by taking first letters from some words. FAQ must be എഫ്എക്യു.
മീഡിയവിക്കിയുടെ മവ സ്ഥിരതയുള്ള പതിപ്പു് സംഖ്യ 1.34.2 ഇങ്ങോട്ടു് അറക്കു Means are you going to slaughter Media wiki 1.34.2 with some kind of blade ?
I am not reviewing the whole page beacuse most of this words are rubbish. So stop doing bad translations.
Hello ranjithsiji,
i see that you are in a very angry mood. Your language is intemperate too !. Now i will try to answer a few of your points, sometimes correcting your en.
1 ചുണ്ടിനി returns only one result in the whole google search.
( the first word in ml being something you don't like ). In a sense what you are doing actually goes far beyond the " horrible ml translations " of mine. It is what i call the " flying fingers syndrome " of people in IN. Just type on the keyboard ( as in facebook, instagram, twitter or our own field of computers ) but can we build a high-speed rail ( invented by JP in 1960, running without a single accident, 480 km/hr to India's 48, or build a passenger jet, invented starting circa 1898 - - Mmm, the Chinese are attacking on the borders at Ladakh with SPEARS for heaven's sake ) ( well i don't want to get you even more mad, because you may not see any connection )
So, the the point, DON'T use Google, perhaps even ever, they have moved away from open source. It is funny how i found that very word in a few ml dictionaries, for ' pointer '.
i bet you never got angry with Google on all the mishmashed translations they put out in any language of the world at all in their rush to dominate this market.
2 അധിക ഗതാഗതി ഗണക തപാൽ-പട്ടിക was not understood by you.
Since you know ml so well, be imaginative. Think how imaginative the Americans, English, Germans, Russians etc got with words like: API, IRC, FAQ, URL, and us ML's could not, as you will see later in my reply.
അധിക, you must know " more, lots " etc.
ഗതാഗതി you must know ( unless you have had Zero SK = sanskrit, nearly impossible since 50% of ml is SK ), means " traffic "
ഗണക, take a wild guess, with ഗണിതം being " computing ", your very own ml.wikipedia uses it plentifully. So may be connected ? Yes: computer. Admittedly wordsmithing by the man you like to hate right now.
തപാൽ,, of course you know, being what the postman brings: " mail, post ", and other good things may be.
പട്ടിക, of course you know, so common, " list "
Leads you to the magical discovery of: " high traffic email list ", exactly as in the MediaWiki en source.
3 " there is no custom of making shortforms in ml ". Really. So in the old days we walked, you would refuse to have railways and airplanes ? ( i could tell you a REAL historical story of this happening in 1860 ). Sure we used those planks of wood boats for the ocean hugging the coast line, so you would not like steamships and aircraft carriers ?
Now something wonderful has happened then ! We have short-forms in ml. You could join kindergarten in that area, instead of deleting all of my ml.
But when it comes to ' http, php ' we have NO problem in short forms that merely change script from en to ml to confuse everybody, is that it ? Why not just write ' http, php ' in en script, and with only 26 letters of the alphabet you know well that nearly ALL ML's know that much en.
4 i stand corrected on your പതിവു് rather than my പതിവുുള്ള. Thank you. The thought had crossed my mind, and likely i would have corrected it, with a hint, or shortly.
5 " FAQ must be എഫ്എക്യു. "= ‘ FAQ ‘ in en-script. i beg to seriously differ as a matter of philosophy in translation. Your statement here is 3 above in a repeat. The solution i have provided for you, also at 3, at the second paragraph.
6 " ...Means are you going to slaughter Media wiki 1.34.2 with some kind of blade ?
...most of this words are rubbish...". i did mention your intemperate language, and clearly you had not studied en up to that level where you could convey your thoughts slightly differently.
You are doing the verbal equivalent of those Chinese soldiers on India's borders with spears ( they must have an awful contempt for India, or really hate Indian's for some reason ). Are you ?
You have rhetorically aske of me about "slaughter Media wiki 1.34.2 with some kind of blade". Really, little me, do YOU have any idea of HUGE is this MediaWiki ? Why ask the irrelevant ?
So. all the ml ( of mine ) indicated in this reply to you was NOT so bad after all, from one word to a very technical phrase. Mmm.
Happy thoughts. ~~~~
Section-2:
6. I am a wordsmith, crafting possible conversions for ml. Things take time to take hold. Some die by the wayside.
7. However here is a sample of translation efforts and requests from ‘ ml.wikipedia ‘ and ‘ translatewiki.net ‘
--< life of an actress in ML film >
--Adult Gaming Centre --Amusement Arcade --Electoral Boundary --Window Construction (houses)
We see that many a “ ml “ translator can provide “ general translator “ support.
8. Here a different sample from say Computers, Math:
preg_match_all('/<(p) class="g-c-[ns]"[^>]*>(.*?)<\/p>/s', $page, $m);
(let ((get (queue-get-ptr queue))
solve |2x - 3| - 5 ≥ 7, get answer (-∞, -9/2] U [15/2, +∞)
What does 17*x**2 -30*x*y+17*y**2=32 represent? It is some type of ellipse by substituting the new variables x'=a*x+b*y and y'=c*x+d*y into the equation and then adjusting the constants a, b, c, and d until the cross term x*y disappears. A much faster way is to use matrix algebra to accomplish this task. We use cos(a), sin(a) in a matrix to connect the x’s, and the y’s.
{{translatable}} Template:Translatable
{{translatable|Page name}} Page name
{{translatable|Page name/ja}} Page name
{{ {{Translatable template name|name of navigation template}}|parameters....}}
Example (from translatable meta:Template:Meta, used in translatable page meta:Meta:About):
{{Translatable template name|Tnavbar}}
{{Translatable template|name of template|parameters.…}}
All this could cause the most immense confusion in a translator’s mind as to what exactly they might be saying in technical translation.
9. In the above we need “ technical translators “ who are content experts. I would aver that kiran gopi is less prepared in the MediaWiki domain than in the wikipedia domain. But things can resolve when we help each other.
10, I would say the table below describes matters:
Content Type translator type needed
wikipedia general general
MediaWiki high technical content expert, can translate
( to be continued ) ~~~~
As someone who knows quite a bit of Computer Science and Maths, I don't understand your "different sample" with 17*x**2 -30*x*y+17*y**2=32...
BTW: even for the elliptical example, it would be faster to precompute the equations, though matrix algebra would probably be useful if the dimensions become larger.
Thanks, wasn't sure how to revert the entire page.
You must do a complete revert of the entire translation stack. Because the whole thing is rubbish. If anybody read this who really know Malayalam then they will laugh very badly. I suggest to block this user for doing Malayalam Translations.
Thank you. There are many pages to delete from Special:Contributions/Arzoper. I am reviewing his contributions and if it is a small fix I will do it, otherwise I'll tag it for speedy.
You might want to request Translation admin permission if you plan to make a lot of deletions.
The damage is severe than expected, hundreds of new translation are created within a month. I can help here on deleting the translation pages. Thank you @Adithyak1997 and @Ranjithsiji for your valuable comments, as a ml native speakers you guys really understand the pain while reading these kinds of translations.
Hello, kiran,
For now i shall not reply, since my main reply is still chugging along, after your initiating explosion against me.
i wonder if you ' see ' my PAIN of reading your ( & group ) " lazy translations " ? Keep in mind that the group of 999 doesn't necessarily mean the group of 1 is an Idiot.
Regards, ~~~~
All pages must tag for speedy deletion. Otherwise it will be a disaster for people those who read Malayalam. https://xtools.wmflabs.org/globalcontribs/Arzoper says 885 Edits in Mediawiki. So It is a huge task for now.
Ranjith etta, let me try if I can make changes. For pages I cannot deal with, I will try requesting for deletion (don't know how I can delete yet)
Deletion of pages require Translation admin privileges which you can request here.
I will also try to clean this garbage. Project:Support desk/Header/ml This pages reviewed and edited from top to bottom. Don't forget to read the complete page after the translation. This was an unexpected heavy job for the community. And thanks @Arzoper for making so-many laborious task for the community. As a community we will never forget you. Also I am planning to use your translation examples on the slides where we are presenting and discussing about Malayalam Translations.
Hello again Ranjithsiji,
1 "I will also try to clean this garbage. " A better writing: " i will also try to clean up this page ". (Please don't ask me now why i use the ' i ' ). It is particular to me over many years.
2 "Don't forget to read the complete page after the translation." A better writing: <nothing at all>, in short don't proffer commands to others needlessly.
In fact i may never bother to read ml translations of MediaWiki unless some other Administrators come to my help. You see i knew these technical concepts, and words in ml as well, BEFORE you were born ! i am able to tell. And for my purposes the en MediaWiki will work just fine.
3 "And thanks @Arzoper for making so-many laborious task for the community." A better writing: <don't take the community as yourself>, i.e. leave out the sentence. Did you do any kind of survey, IRC chat, paper sampling, coffee discussions ?
When NO ONE was even on MediaWiki ( for nearly 18 years ) how did it suddenly become yours, or even the whole community ? Apparently the community was getting along fine with the en MediaWiki. And i am sure KE (Kerala) is much larger than you andyour community that you have in mind.
4 "As a community we will never forget you." This looks both like a threat ( Chinese with spears ), or could historically turn out to be an invigorating advance and plaudits to me some day in the future. Your name will be remembered for saying i was an Idiot.
5 " Also I am planning to use your translation examples on the slides where we are presenting and discussing about Malayalam Translations."
What ! You are not with ' translatewiki.net ' or something, or a commercial outfit, are you ?
Why the former even requires one to sign up with an email address, whereas the wonderful MediaWiki of such awesome power has not yet asked anything of me, but two inputs ( a name, a password ).
Comment is same as 4 ( from both angles ). i hope the positive angle happens of waking up some very " far behind " ( technically ) translators from their " lazy translations "
Regards, ~~~~.
@Clump: I think this argument is going too long, and I think we're better off discussing this elsewhere. How do you think about putting this in Project:Current issues?
Yes; certainly no need to keep it here. Talk:Content translation seems perhaps more appropriate though...
@Clump: Not there, because this is with respect to the action of a particular user that is supposedly causing issues. I suggested Current issues because that would be the right place to discuss something related to the site (and here, the conduct of a user).
(Content translation seems to refer to a tool)
Ok. (I don't think it's possible to move a flow-conversation to another talk page, so I guess it's just a matter of closing this and summarizing it with a pointer elsewhere?)