Topic on Talk:Structured Discussions

What can interested users do to help the development of Flow (when it starts again)?

45
BurritoBazooka (talkcontribs)

I really like Flow, and dislike the English Wikipedia's current talk page system. I have witnessed a lot of instances where users are confused about the talk page system and end up using it wrong, many times resulting in their opinions not seen by the relevant people, nevermind considered; and other times resulting in historical discussions being difficult to follow without using the page history to see who said what when.

I think Flow is better for new users, and is a good way of encouraging their input on Wikipedia, thus making Wikipedia grow as a project - at the very least by making it easier for them to submit properly filed edit requests. Although I have a personal leaning towards the freeform style that Wikipedia's talk page system allows for, I want to see Flow succeed for the greater good, and I think there are many others like me. I'm glad to see it being implemented in other Wikimedia projects and I hope that it will benefit them greatly.

I recently noticed that the English Wikipedia has had its Flow extension uninstalled because of the halt in development.

What can people like me do to help Flow succeed? Is there a donation page especially for this extension? Could there be one next time development starts? Is there a bounty program? A box to tick showing our support?

The Quixotic Potato (talkcontribs)

If you want Flow to succeed you would have to redesign it from scratch.

BurritoBazooka (talkcontribs)

What issue do you have with it? It's far better than the current talk page system, that's why I like it. Redesigning it would mean it would just take longer to implement.

The Quixotic Potato (talkcontribs)

No, it is inferior to the current talk page system. Flow is confusing, counter-intuitive, user-unfriendly and a gigantic waste of time and money.

Are you aware that people are trying to create a VisualEditor? The VisualEditor will make Flow obsolete, right? Or do you think we should ask newbies to learn to use both Visual Editor and Flow??

BurritoBazooka (talkcontribs)

Flow doesn't require that much learning. VisualEditor will still not be a suitable interface for "comment section" type interaction.

"confusing, counter-intuitive, user-unfriendly"

I disagree that this is a good reason to require a complete redesign. Any concerns can be handled during the next development phase. I really don't think it needs redesigning from the ground up.

The Quixotic Potato (talkcontribs)

Flow is confusing, annoying and very buggy. Why can't I delete my own comments for example? WTF does "hiding" a comment do? Many other people have already expressed their displeasure with it. VisualEditor is currently not ready to be used on talkpages (or anywhere else), but maybe it will be at some point in the future.

I hope there won't be another development phase, because Flow is a huge waste of time that could've been spend more productively.

A complete redesign of Flow could result in a viable alternative to normal talkpages, but at this stage it is probably better to send Flow to /dev/null and forget it ever existed.

I tried to save this message and it gave me this error: http://imgur.com/a/bRT0w

Developing Flow and VE alongside each other is (obviously) a stupid idea. If we would use them both then newbies would be required to learn 2 different badly implemented counter-intuitive systems that are (in their current state) inferior to wikimarkup. We have to make a choice, and Flow is the least desirable option.

You and I may have a high-speed internet connection and a computer worth several thousand euros, but not everyone is so lucky, and Flow is basically unusable for those on older hardware with a bad WIFI connection.

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)
Sänger (talkcontribs)

Yes, because it's a threat for this new pet project here, not because of some valid reason.

A wikipage is a wikipage is a wikipage. The best thing about this wikisystem is, that in principle all pages are just the same, editable in the same manner, no rift between the pages. There are some gimmicks, that have been developed for certain types of pages, but that's the only difference. The exemption was LQT, which was a failure. Now they want to recreate LQT in another manner, to get some dumbed down forumesque page to simulate some blahblah pages from social media.

This page here has a complete different look and feel as all other pages in the wikiverse, it's only useful for discussions and social chatter, not for working on articles for the wikipedias around the world. A talk page of an article is the core implementation of any talk page, any other implementation hast to cow to the needs of article talk pages. The wikiverse is about the creation of articles, it's talk pages for the betterment of them, to test stuff, to show co-authors solutions for problems on the front side, to answer several former questions at once, to restructure some parts that have run out of control, to divide and unite different threads, all possible with the same tools used on every other page in the whole wikiverse.

But not here, this is just a weak forum implementation, without any other merit. Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 15:56, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

The Quixotic Potato (talkcontribs)

Do you think repeating a nonsensical mantra over and over is a good strategy to use in communication with people who disagree with you? It seems quite insulting to me. I am not a [[:en:Hare Krishna (mantra)|Hare Krishna]].

If VE will always be restricted to plain text then VE is not gonna be very useful. Seems like a huge waste of time and money to me.

I can't even preview my edits in Flow... I tried to link to an article on en.wiki and it failed (after annoying me with a stupid GUI).

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

There is plenty of pages plain text, actually quite all. But structured data pages, like the ones using Wikibase, are using VE. That's a decision from the VE team. That decision also concerns talk pages.

Concerning the preview, I've seen on you screenshot that you have an interface like that one:

If so, you are using the visual mode. If you type :en:Hare Krishna (mantra) in the link inspector, that will create a link . If you prefer to use wikitext, you can click on the two brackets to have access to wikitext, and then on the pen to have a preview. Add a link using Flow's GUI is the same as on the visual editor for articles.

The Quixotic Potato (talkcontribs)

That proves my point about how counter-intuitive and badly designed this system is.

When I type the first 2 square brackets a GUI pops up and the square brackets disappear.

This is a bad idea, the brackets shouldn't disappear, ask any UX designer.

Then I type a colon and the box becomes red (which makes me believe something is wrong).

When I type the first letter (the letter "e") the GUI shows me article search results from the wiki I am currently on, even though I already typed a colon.

It is far more likely that I am going to link to a category or another wiki.

The search results disappear again when I have written <nowiki>[[:en:</nowiki> It doesn't give me any search results that are categories or articles on the English Wikipedia.

My father is old, how is he supposed to understand how to use this functionality?

How are people with visual handicaps going to use this GUI?

In the bottom right of the box I am typing this message in there is an icon with 4 square brackets. Of course I assumed that this means (internal) link.

Near the bottom left of the box I am typing in there is a more conventional hyperlink symbol, so I would assume that means external link.

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

You are raising up problems that are not Flow specific, but visual editing ones.

The Quixotic Potato (talkcontribs)

I do not use Visual Editor (for obvious reasons). Does Flow use VE?

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Both visual editing and wikitext editing. I've explained it to you just above your previous answer.

The Quixotic Potato (talkcontribs)

Sorry, I forgot, that was 10 days ago. Thank you I will probably have to install VE and Flow on my own mediawiki installation in order to understand how everything works.

Sänger (talkcontribs)

That's difficult. As the fairy tale goes, VE is not suitable for talk pages, at least that's what the fanboys say, it's not VE but the underlying Parsoid Engine that's used here, and by the VE as well. Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 18:18, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

The Quixotic Potato (talkcontribs)

Hm, interesting. I will have a look at this Parsoid thingy. The name is pretty cool! Oh look I praised something even though I dislike Flow maybe we won't be blocked now.

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hello BurritoBazooka

A good way to help talk page improvements is to show how important it is for you. Thank you for your message!

Flow extension has been uninstalled from English Wikipedia after a community discussion. Some other communities are using Flow on user talk pages, as a Beta feature (people can opt-in) or as the default discussion system (like here, on mediawiki.org).

At the moment, Flow development is stalled, waiting for a decision concerning talk pages improvements. That decision will be partially based on the results of a survey I'm working on at the moment. I hope we can reach a firm decision in 2017. There is no donation page dedicated to that project, but, if you are a developer (PHP), you can help for sure.

You can remain informed about the next steps concerning Flow by subscribing to our monthly newsletter (edit: as you already did).

The Quixotic Potato (talkcontribs)

The community has already reached a firm decision on Flow's future, the overwhelming consensus on en.wiki is that Flow is shit, but that is difficult to accept for some people who have a minority viewpoint.

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

English Wikipedia's consensus is a consensus for just one wiki among hundreds, not the whole community one. Other wikis don't agree with that consensus. Please show respect to those communities.

The Quixotic Potato (talkcontribs)

Woah, maybe the WMF should show some respect to the communities... The WMF is using money earned by content creators to fund stupid vanity projects instead of using it to serve & protect those communities like they are supposed to!

The WMF does not respect the communities and it does not respect the people who have donated to the WMF, that is a major problem.

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

We have respected the wish of English Wikipedia to remove Flow. We are also respecting the wish of other communities that want to use Flow to ease discussions.

A lack of respect would be to force communities to use Flow, which is not the case: community volunteer and must have a discussion and a formal decision must be obtained prior enabling Flow on a wiki.

The Quixotic Potato (talkcontribs)

Are there any communities that have requested to use Flow (without it being forced on them)? You are forcing me and Sanger to use Flow, even though we prefer normal talkpages....

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Concerning communities, yes there are. Including mediawikiwiki one.

The Quixotic Potato (talkcontribs)

No, the MediaWiki community has not requested to use Flow without it being forced on them if I understand the page you linked to correctly.

So the only community where Flow is the default per consensus is gom.wikipedia.org, right?

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

MediaWiki has it by default since end of 2013. kab.wp is missing on that list. I have to update that page.

Sänger (talkcontribs)

Where exactly was the community decision to make Flow default here, it has to be some RfC or such, can you please post a link to this? Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 18:24, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Sänger (talkcontribs)
;P My talk page is a real one, not this fake one here. Yours on the other hand is a Flow forum imitation, you should have started it before this shit was made default by the fanboys. Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 17:38, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
The Quixotic Potato (talkcontribs)

How can I disable Flow so I can use my talkpage???

Sänger (talkcontribs)

A lack of respect is not to enable VE on talkpages to push Flow. And don't come with the fairy tales the WMF is uttering, a talk page is a wiki page, and thus able to be edited by VE.

Flow on the other hand creates a deep rift between talk pages and the rest of the wikiverse in terms of look and feel. But it's the new pet project, and much sexier than boring maintenance.

Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 21:03, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

The Quixotic Potato (talkcontribs)

I made a comment here, but it was intended to be a reply to Trizeks comment. Flow does not allow me to remove this comment...

Update: someone hid this comment, which illustrates the problem. Flow simply does not allow me to delete the comment. Hiding it is not the same as deleting it.

The Quixotic Potato (talkcontribs)

I still do not know how to delete messages. Not just my own, also those of others.

For example, if Sanger doxes himself, and I want to delete the message that contains the dox, how would I go about doing that??

Sänger (talkcontribs)

That's the only way, and go to some oversighter/admin to properly delete that stuff. Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 17:44, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

The Quixotic Potato (talkcontribs)

So our overworked admins would have to deal with every single case where text needs to be removed on talkpages if Flow would be the standards for talkpages???

Lol, that is bizarre.

95.33.148.132 (talkcontribs)

I just logged out, to see whether I can see anything, and as an IP I'm not able to see the hidden stuff, so probably webspiders won't as well. Sänger as an IP ~~~~

The Quixotic Potato (talkcontribs)

Woah that means that Flow has created a totally new type of vandalism, any IP can simply start hiding posts for no reason!

95.33.148.132 (talkcontribs)

Yes, I can! And don't dare to reopen your post!

Sänger (talkcontribs)
The Quixotic Potato (talkcontribs)

I would if I knew how to do that conveniently! Do I really have to dig through all the edits on the History page to unhide my post?? Are we going to get blocked because we do not like Flow?

This was intended to be a reply to the IP, but I cannot delete it here and move it there.

The Quixotic Potato (talkcontribs)

@Sänger

I cannot unhide it in single post view...

I cannot unhide it in topic view Topic:Tfvdax4qh9t3ijxd

The topic view shows this line: This comment was hidden by Sänger (history)

The history link goes to the history page, there is no unhide link.

Sänger (talkcontribs)

There is an (hide|unhide) link at the end of every version, at least in my history view. Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 18:10, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

The Quixotic Potato (talkcontribs)

Yeah, there are (hide|unhide) links on the history page, but not on the talkpage itself.

Imagine if someone has hidden a post on a popular topic on a frequently used talkpage that was was written in a long time ago...

The history link goes to the history of the topic, but not to the specific edit.

I wonder how archiving would work when posts can be hidden. Flow is so confusing!

I don't seem to be able to move my post to a new location for some reason.

Sänger (talkcontribs)

Archiving? Oh, my dear, how last year you are...

There is no archiving in Flow, it's a never ending page, to scroll endlessly down. I've been told that facebook uses this so they had to imitate it. Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 18:26, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

The Quixotic Potato (talkcontribs)

I feel old now. Facebook is evil, like Google.

This is weird, on Special:SpecialPages I found a link that says "Enable Flow" so I tried visiting Special:DisableFlow but it does not exist....

Sänger (talkcontribs)

I tend to agree with your views about the Datenkraken (data leech, literally data kraken) Fratzenbuch and Kugel (literally grimace book and globe), and I have neither a facebook account nor an active google one (I've only got one, because I use an android phone) Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 18:42, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Reply to "What can interested users do to help the development of Flow (when it starts again)?"