Talk:Growth

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Discussion related to the old Growth team is archived at Talk:Growth/Growth 2014.

Notice about the medium and hard tasks

2
NGC 54 (talkcontribs)

After completing some linking and/or copyediting tasks, and if no medium/hard tasks are selected, users could be noticed again on Special:Homepage about updating, references adding and expanding. On Romanian Wikipedia, I do not see users updating, adding references or expanding (expanding I see, but seldom) when using Suggested Edits, only copyediting, adding links and vandalizing (see https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Schimb%C4%83ri_recente?hidebots=1&hidecategorization=1&hideWikibase=1&tagfilter=newcomer+task%7Chelp+panel+question&limit=1000&days=30&urlversion=2).

MMiller (WMF) (talkcontribs)

@NGC 54 -- that's right, we definitely want to work on this in the future. We think that if we see newcomers who are successfully accomplishing easy tasks, we could nudge them to try harder and more valuable ones. This is part of what we're thinking about in the upcoming "positive reinforcement" project.

Reply to "Notice about the medium and hard tasks"
NGC 54 (talkcontribs)
MMiller (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Thanks for that note, @NGC 54. I think the idea behind that special page is similar to what our algorithm will be doing. The link recommendation algorithm is going to be finding articles that need lots of links added. They won't necessarily have zero links, but they will have fewer than other articles.

Reply to "Links suggestion"
NGC 54 (talkcontribs)
Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

EditorJourney is not available for your wiki. We are limiting the number of wikis where this tool is used, since it is collecting data. It is a lot of work to have it on more wikis, so we have decided not to deploy it anymore. But the report you link to is a good reflection of what people do when they create an account on Wikipedia, whatever the language.

Regarding the Welcome survey, I'm asking of some data could be available soon.

Reply to "Statistics for ro.wp"
Iniquity (talkcontribs)

@Trizek (WMF), hi :) Help me please. Do all newcomers get a mentor? Or only 80%?

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hello!

At the moment, the features are only given to 80% of newcomers. We plan to move to 100% soon, after our second look at the data. It is a work in progress, we expect the results to be published soon!

Martin Urbanec (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hello @Iniquity and @Trizek (WMF), I'd like to clarify this a bit. While the features are enabled only to 80 % of newcomers, a mentor is assigned to everyone, including users who do not get the features. The assigned mentor is not used by MediaWiki itself, but it can be retreived through the magic keyword (#mentor) and used by on-wiki templates. That was decided in T275514. Best,

Iniquity (talkcontribs)

Thank you very much for your reply! @Martin Urbanec (WMF), and for old users, those who were registered before Growth functions were deployed on wiki, a mentor is assigned?

Martin Urbanec (WMF) (talkcontribs)

No, and it also isn't assigned for people who did not get Growth features before T275514 was implemented.

Iniquity (talkcontribs)

Ok, thanks :)

Reply to "Mentor and mentees"

Initial Editor settings for the New user

5
Summary by Whatamidoing (WMF)
Chaduvari (talkcontribs)

@Trizek (WMF), this is about my observation on tewiki.

New user has their editor preferences set as 2010 Wikitext editor. I think it should be Visual editor which makes editing easy and user-friendly for them. Can you please think it over.. thank you.

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Thank you for your feedback. I'm curious to know how you tested it. Here is what I did:

  1. I picked a random task from my Homepage,
  2. I click "Edit",
  3. I have the visual editor.

I did it using my work account and also a brand new test account.

At the moment, your wiki has one single "edit" tab. By default, clicking on it loads the visual editor for new users. If they switch to the 2010 wikitext editor when the edit and save from this editor, then the Edit tab will open the wikitext editor until the user switches back to the visual editor.

The help panel, shown when people work on suggested edits, encourage users to switch back to the visual editor.

Chaduvari (talkcontribs)

I created a new user and tested it. To recheck, I created another user today. After completing the survey, I went to my Homepage. From there, I went to edit a page. There I saw "Edit source" tab only. When I clicked it, it showed me 2010 Wikitext editor.

In the "edits" tab of the "preferences", the settings are like this:

  • "Enable the editing toolbar": Checked
  • "Temporarily disable the visual editor while it is in beta": Unchecked
  • In the "Editing mode:" drop-down list, "Remember my last editor" is selected
Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Thank you. The visual editor is the default editor on your wiki.

@Whatamidoing (WMF), did I miss something on this issue? Why some new users get the wikitext editor on te.wp?

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talkcontribs)

I'm not sure what's going on, but I've filed a bug report, and the devs will look into it.

Reply to "Initial Editor settings for the New user"

Change request in the Post welcome survey path

2
Chaduvari (talkcontribs)

@Trizek (WMF)

This is about tewiki.

Post survey submission, the newcomer is taken to a page where it is asking to choose a destination from

1. where the newcomer came form (lets call it "referring page") and 2. newcomer Homepage.

If the newcomer chooses the referring page, there is a chance that the newcomer may not remember to go to his Homepage after that. The very purpose of the project is defeated at this point.

Please see if it can be changed as -

The newcomer will be taken to the Homepage after the survey. There, they will be asked if they want to go the trigger page. This way, they will not miss the friendly homepage, and the mentor.

Thank you

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hello @Chaduvari

The newcomer is supposed to get a pop-up that shows the user page link, and sans something like "there is your homepage, don't forget to visit it".

We had to make a choice between forwarding users who create an account to immediately edit a page, compared to the ones who just create an account. We choose to give a choice to the user. :)

Reply to "Change request in the Post welcome survey path"

Handle newcomers mentor assignment when a mentor quits

11
Summary by Trizek (WMF)
Ainali (talkcontribs)

What happens if a mentor removes themselves from the list (if they for some reasons don't want to continue being a mentor)? Will the newcomer get a new mentor automatically (and if so, will they be notified)?

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Once a user has been assigned a mentor, they keep that mentor even if the mentor removes themselves from the active mentor list.

The workaround is to use Special:ClaimMentee. It can be used by any other mentor who monitors the retired mentor's talk page so that they can empty the list of active newcomers for this retired mentor.

We are working on plans about scaling and improving tools for mentors. In your opinion, what would be the ideal solution for this situation? :)

Ainali (talkcontribs)

I guess the tricky part is to know which newcomers were assigned to this mentor. Or is this information public somewhere?

NGC 54 (talkcontribs)
Nux (talkcontribs)

The magic word is not a solution to this. It's just one user and it is actually the other way around. It shows a mentor for specific mentee. It would help if it would show all mentees for a specific mentor.

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

A tool that reassign mentees en masse would help there? You put a mentor's name in it and all mentees are reassigned. This is covered by T272376, as you know. :)

Nux (talkcontribs)

Yes. That would be great 🙂. I'm sometimes curios how many mentees I have, but I don't really need that info.

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

We have a project to have a mentor dashboard which could potentially include an overview of your mentees :)

Ainali (talkcontribs)

Thanks for the answer.

One simple idea that we got was just to randomly assign a new mentor and then give a notification to the newcomer what has happened.

NGC 54 (talkcontribs)

I support this idea.

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

The idea of automatically reassign activated mentees to new mentors when their mentor quits or is blocked is tracked as T272376, where I'm going to add your feedback.

Reply to "Handle newcomers mentor assignment when a mentor quits"
NGC 54 (talkcontribs)

Linking to Wikidata could be another "medium" task.

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Thank you for this suggestion. However, we prefer to keep things on Wikipedia for now, to avoid confusion by editing across the wikis.

MMiller (WMF) (talkcontribs)

@NGC 54 -- thanks for the idea! Could you explain more about what this task would include? What would the newcomers link to Wikidata?

NGC 54 (talkcontribs)
Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

So it would be about including newly created articles to Wikidata?

NGC 54 (talkcontribs)

@Trizek (WMF): Not only "newly". For example, on Romanian Wikipedia () there are some articles unconnected to Wikidata. However, I see that this task would be suitable only for some wikis, where there are articles that have this issue.

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Thank you. As you say, we are trying to create tools with an universal use. But this issue is real and should be kept in mind.

Reply to "Wikidata"
NGC 54 (talkcontribs)

I see that there is an empty space between "Suggested edits", "Your impact", "Your mentor" and "Get help with editing" modules. Is there any proposed module for that empty space?

I do not see a "Ask the Help Desk" button in Homepage; a similar button would be useful (to choose ask the mentor or ask the Help Desk).

Why the "Create a new article" task cannot be checked? If it is not a real task, it could be integrated somewhere else, but the users still need a tutorial about how to create an article (where the notability is also described). "Create a new article" could be another module, but in this case it should be recommended to edit before that (with "Suggested edits").

Also, a tutorial about translating pages would be good (with ContentTranslation and with a draft/subpage in "User page").

MMiller (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hi @NGC 54 -- you bring up an interesting point about having the "ask the help desk" button on the homepage. In the first version of the homepage we actually did include both buttons. Here is a screenshot. But we found that the "mentor" button got about 15 times more questions than the "help desk" button. Based on how obvious it was that users preferred to ask mentors, we removed the "help desk" option in order to simplify the page.

Regarding content translation, we are planning an integration! The Language team is starting to roll out the "section translation" capability, which we think will be easier for newcomers than translating full articles (and it works on mobile). The idea would be that users could select "section translation" as a task, and then the feed would list articles that need sections translated. When the newcomer selects an article, it would take them to the Content Translation tool. How does that sound? Do you think that would work well?

NGC 54 (talkcontribs)

Ok.

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)
Current state of the Homepage

I think you don't see the Impact module. But this module is default. Can you compare with the screenshot?

The "ask the help desk" button is supposed to be displayed on the help panel, not on the Homepage. Maybe you found an out-of-date information on a project page. Do you have a link to it?

Create a new article is a very often requested task. As a volunteer mentor on French Wikipedia, I got this question every 3 questions. The goal with this greyed box is to encourage newcomers to do the other tasks beforehand. We kept this box as a placeholder, and as an encouragement to do the other tasks. Plus, on wikis where the tools are active, there is a link that goes to the local article wizard.

At the moment, we have no plans regarding the development of things around this box, but we are considering to have something around translations. For now, we are exploring this possibility by asking people who create a new account if they can work on translations. We use the Welcome Survey for this.

NGC 54 (talkcontribs)

I see the "Your impact" module.

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Where is your empty space then?

NGC 54 (talkcontribs)
Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Ha, yes. So we have the same thing. :)

It is normal. We may have some new modules coming there at some point.

NGC 54 (talkcontribs)

Another possible task:

  • Adding an image
  • Uploading an image
  • Adding a category
  • Creating a category
  • Creating a redirection
Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Thank you for your suggestions.

We are currently working on adding an image.

We have discarded uploading an image, due to the complexity of copyright. Also, we focus on Wikipedia, and uploading images is more a Wikimedia Commons thing.

Concerning the other suggestions, how do you think newcomers will appreciate them?

Reply to "Homepage"
Ата (talkcontribs)

Hi, @Trizek (WMF), @MMiller (WMF), I'm working on a presentation for the Ukrainian WikiConference about the Growth initiatives, particularly, Newcomer homepage. Can you please guide me to where I can find the numbers and findings about it that exist for ukwiki? Thanks a lot.

MMiller (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Hi @Ата -- I'm glad to hear that you will be presenting about the Growth features! We think the Growth features are going well, and there is a lot of good news to talk about. We also would be eager to hear what your community members think about them so far. I can generate some numbers and graphs about Ukrainian Wikipedia next week. Is that okay? Here are some questions we have for you:

  • The graphs that I want to make are like this one and this one, showing numbers of edits over time and numbers of editors over time. There are a lot of wikis on those graphs, and perhaps it would be easier to show them if we only have a small number of wikis to compare with Ukrainian. Are there some wikis on the list that you think would make the most interesting comparisons?
  • Do you need any other help with your presentation? @Trizek (WMF) and I have many slides and pictures. We could also help you learn about our team's future plans, specifically around "structured tasks".

Let us know!

Ата (talkcontribs)

@MMiller (WMF), If you can generate some numbers and graphs about Ukrainian Wikipedia next week, it will be awesome! I assume that cswiki, huwiki, plwiki, and possibly svwiki might be interesting for comparison. I also asked some users what that would like to hear in the presentation, and here are some points:

  • Are mentors being monitored by someone? Is the mentor—mentee conversation being moderated by someone else, and if not, should it be? (My answer: no, they aren't and it isn't; but I saw mentors supplementing additional details when the already given answer from another mentor doesn't seem well. I assume that the question derives from fear of some self-proclaimed mentors not being experienced and humble enough, which says something about the community and not the Growth features themselves.)
  • What are the best cases of mentoring? (My answer: I have noticed some imho very nice instances and would like to talk to some mentors next week.)
  • How do mentors like the process? (I guess, one would have to ask the all for that.)
  • How do mentees like the suggested edits, was there any survey?
  • What are the quality of their edits, are they any good?

I am currently looking through the subpages here and presentations on Commons (like this one) and I will gladly receive any suggestions about what findings and future plans you would like me to underline during the 45 minutes that I will have next Sunday :) My email is vira.motorko at gmail.com in case you need it.

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

I can reply to some of the questions :

  • About mentoring mentors: the list of mentors is public and talk pages are public as well. It is up to anyone to monitor their activity, as other people monitor what's going on on talk pages. Lists of mentors are usually protected so that not everyone can add their name there. And of course, it is frequent to see other people adding extra information to a mentor reply.
  • About best cases of mentoring, I would be curious to have examples since this is not something we particularly monitor.
  • About mentors liking the process, it is important to keep in mind that we (as the whole WMF) mostly receive messages about things that don't work. :) I never had the chance to have a direct feedback from a mentor telling me that they like very much the process. I got a few pieces of feedback related to people disliking the process, mostly about the quality of questions received by mentors. However, this is subjective: some people we complaining because they didn't get actual questions but just greetings. Also some rare mentors were complaining about the quality of questions. An evaluation about the quality of messages has been conduced on French Wikipedia and Portuguese Wikipedia. And it appears that the majority of questions received are aligned with Wikipedia's scope, and even if they are not questions, they provide actionable feedback.
  • About knowing if mentees like the suggested edits, we haven't surveyed them. But data seems to prove that they appreciate them since the number of edits they make during their first couple of weeks on the wiki significantly increases (+85,6%). Regarding quality, we mesure it by the number of reverts, and the quality of edits made using our tools is comparable to that of a control group. However, our tools haven't measured the overall quality, that would need humans to compare edits.

As Marshall mentioned, our next big step is Structured tasks. Our first tool is about adding links to the articles, and we will test it on our pilot wikis as a prototype. The slides at the end of this presentation would give you a good overview of our project (even if they are just mockups). The tool would be based on a yes/no/not sure system, to guide newcomers understanding what is a good link, and to help improving connexions between different concepts. The yes/no/not sure system would allow them to focus on understanding concepts first without the obligation to understand how to edit (even if they still can edit if they wish to).

Let us know if you need more information!

MMiller (WMF) (talkcontribs)

@Ата -- I've made some graphs that may be useful to you. The first two show the number of distinct users completing suggested edits each work during 2020, and the second two show the number of edits completed.

Two additional numbers that may be interesting are:

  • 476 mentorship questions have been asked by 379 users in Ukrainian Wikipedia
  • 275 help panel questions have been asked by 208 users in Ukrainian Wikipedia

Regarding whether mentees like the suggested edits, we asked newcomers on Arabic, Czech, Korean, and Vietnamese about their experiences by posting questions on their talk pages. These questions went to newcomers who have been doing a lot of suggested edits, so we would expect their responses to be positive (otherwise they would have not done so many suggested edits). Many of them say that suggested edits helps them find interesting things to work on, that they like to choose topics of interest to narrow the articles down to certain areas, and that the feature has helped them learn editing policies and rules. We've also seen that some users do a few suggested edits and then move on to other kinds of edits, like translating articles. Other users just continue to do hundreds of suggested edits day after day.

In terms of a best case of mentoring, one story comes to mind from Vietnamese Wikipedia in which a mentee has since grown their involvement and is now a mentor.

Like @Trizek (WMF) said, we are especially interested to know what your community members think of structured tasks. You're welcome to show and demo the prototypes that are in this section.

I hope this information is helpful, and please stay in touch with any other needs. We want to hear how the session goes!

Ата (talkcontribs)

Thank you both, Marshall and Benoît, you are extremely helpful, as always Hopefully I will have some thoughts about the structured tasks from the conference attendees right away; and of course it can be discussed onwiki later.

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Thank you Ата. We thank you as well, since you continuously take care of the experiments on Ukrainian Wikipedia! :)

This brand new page may also interest you as well: Growth/Results.

Ата (talkcontribs)

A late update from me: I used the suggested media, and the session went ok Here are my findings and questions:

  • The mentors have a need to know better what newcomers see and to share best practices of having conversations with them – it will be good to have an extended talk about this separately.
  • How do newcomers know that their question on the help desk or on the mentors talk page got answered? I stressed the importance of pinging users – and also people suggest that these notifications were more prominent, maybe even in a form of another block on the homepage, or as an additional bell icon next to the mentor's name (look! they answered you!).
  • In the suggested edit module, – in Ready? Click "Edit" to get started. – the word Edit might be a link to the action=edit, or be in some other way more suggestive about where to actually click. (As far as I remember there is this blue dot that suggests clicking? does it work here? I wasn't sure.)
  • Is it possible to switch Extension:GrowthExperiments on a non-Wikimedia wiki?
  • Can a mentor mark themselves as away yet? will a newbie be automatically switched from a mentor who haven't logged in for a while to another mentor?
  • One experienced mentor reminded us that newcomers' questions may be sorted out in recent edits, and by looking for recent versions mentors can find questions, unanswered by others.

There was no particular feedback on structured edits.

Trizek (WMF) (talkcontribs)

Thank you for your report! It is really appreciated.

  • Mentors can discover a newcomer typical experience by creating a new account. Concerning mentors, I don't know if you know that we have a training for them.
  • Newcomers know that their question has been answered when (and if) they are pinged. Like you said, pinging is a must-have on a reply. This idea of having a notification on the homepage is something that should be considered. Thank you for passing this along!
  • There is always a blinking blue spot highlighting the "edit" button.
  • It is possible to deploy the extension to any Mediawiki wiki that has the right configuration. But we won't support any suggestions coming from third party wikis.
  • It is not yet possible for a mentor to say they are away. Please add any context concerning this question to T227876 if you can.
  • Great reminder. Has it lead to people suggesting to take care about questions left by other mentors? Are mentors cooperating on your wiki?

Let me know if you need more details about anything! :)

MMiller (WMF) (talkcontribs)

@Ата -- thank you for the notes about your meeting. It is always good to hear these sorts of thoughts and ideas. I have a couple more notes to add:

  • I suspect that newcomers who don't find out that their question has been answered is one of the biggest problems with the mentorship workflow. I think that many newcomers may expect an answer in seconds or minutes, instead of hours or days, and so once they don't receive an answer, they close the window and don't come back. Many of them also don't register with an email address, and so unless they go back to the wiki to look for their notifications, they may not find out that they have received a response even if they have been pinged. I think some ideas to address this include (a) introducing some sort of live chat so that newcomers don't have to wait for a response, (b) encouraging more newcomers to register with an email address when they create their account, (c) maybe one day integrating with a chat app so that newcomers could get pinged to their phone.
  • About making the word Edit into a link to action=edit: this is actually something we discussed when building the feature. The reason we didn't want a link there is because part of the point of suggested edits is to teach newcomers to edit on their own. Therefore, we want them to know that they have to click "Edit" at the top, so we don't want to give them a confusing shortcut when they're being guided. So instead, we apply the blue dot.
Reply to "Stats and trends of ukwiki"