Project:Village Pump/Flow/2022/02

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CC0/PD licensing of help pages

I noticed the help pages are licensed CC0. But when editing a help page, the user is only informed about this through the edit notice. That's a rather unusual place, but even accepting that, the edit notice is not visible when using mobile view. How could we improve this?

• Make edit notices visible in mobile view?
• License all new text contributions to this wiki under CC0? (unless there are any good arguments against I'd support this)
• Use the edit filter to block(/warn?) contributions to help pages from mobile editors? Alexis Jazz (talk) 09:40, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

There is a reason why Wikimedia projects are usually not put under CC0 – it is not a license promoting free knowledge by spreading it (sa) and promoting its origin (by). I see no real reason to change that.

Editnotices should be available in mobile view anyway. MGChecker (talk) 13:43, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

But they're not.

Well a fourth solution is to change the license for help pages to CC BY-SA, but I assume there's a reason they are CC0. Or a fifth solution is to create a separate wiki for help pages, but that's too much work. I am not super familiar with this wiki, but besides the help pages, what content is here that someone might create a derivative work of? Alexis Jazz (talk) 13:58, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Bugs should not be a reason to change policy. MGChecker (talk) 14:09, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

I assume there's a reason they are CC0

My understanding has always been that this is to allow these pages to be copied to other wikis without requiring backlinks, copying the complete history, a list of authors, or any other method of content license compliance. I also recall seeing something about eventually having a corpus of help pages that could be included in the default installation, but I doubt I'd be able to find any mention of that now. 「ディノ奴千？！」^{☎ Dinoguy1000} 14:17, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Exactly this. It's so the help pages can be redistributed and copied into any wiki, regardless of what that wiki's license is. My HelpPages extension takes advantage of that. Legoktm (talk) 06:36, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

See Project:PD help Ciencia Al Poder (talk) 14:39, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Jdforrester, @MGChecker, this (probably) isn't a bug in MediaWiki, it's a missing feature. (on the other hand, if Jdforrester calls it a bug, I guess maybe it is? I'm gonna declare the phab task a bug!!) phab:T201595 has been open since 2018 so we can't assume this will be fixed, like, ever. If a license change is also unacceptable, that realistically only leaves the edit filter to block contributions from mobile editors to the Help: namespace. I'm fine either way really (though some solutions would be better than others), as long as this doesn't get swept under the rug.

Edit: I had changed the subtype for phab:T201595 to "bug". Jdforrester is a developer, if he says it's a bug I probably shouldn't argue with that, and I was kind of thrilled to see a developer make a statement about a w:WP:THEYCANTHEARYOU issue. But confusingly Jdforrester changed it back. So according to Jdforrester this issue is Schrödinger's cat. Just kidding of course, I actually have no idea now. Alexis Jazz (talk) 15:57, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Most help pages have Template:PD Help Page on them which makes the licensing situation abundantly clear. I think that should be good enough until mobile is fixed (whenever it is). Legoktm (talk) 06:39, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

At least Help:Extension:ParserFunctions (probably the one I look up the most) doesn't. Alexis Jazz (talk) 11:37, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Fixed. Legoktm (talk) 23:35, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

One could even make a small bot run to find out all pages within Help namespace that are currently missing this template. MGChecker (talk) 00:32, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

@MGChecker @Legoktm you mean [1] ? I listed pages that are not subpages on User:Alexis Reggae/PDhelp. Alexis Jazz (talk) 00:59, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Edit: Flow is worthless. This was a reply to Legoktm. Alexis Jazz (talk) 11:36, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

I reopened the topic since there are remaining questions to discuss, which do not seem helpful to spread elsewhere.

Since the template is not present on all Help pages, we should them add to the missing ones, probably per bot. I would deem the contributions by mobile editors unaware of the licensing intention sufficiently small in most cases that this should not pose any significant problems. MGChecker (talk) 00:00, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

I reopened the topic since there are remaining questions to discuss, which do not seem helpful to spread elsewhere.

No problem! But can you explain what questions you think are open, because I can't see them? Sorry! Jdforrester (WMF) (talk) 14:08, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Can we just implement something like https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Wikidata-copyright ? Legoktm (talk) 01:50, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

While it's a good idea and I support doing it in addition to other solution(s), the footer is easy to overlook and mostly targeted towards re-users, not contributors. w:User:Alexis Jazz/EditNoticesOnMobile is also a possibility, I could make a version that's limited to the Help: namespace if needed. Or if a bot adds Template:PD Help Page on every applicable page, while not my first choice due to banner blindness, I suppose that could be sufficient as well. It may actually be possible to solve this problem the proper way, I found this in editpage.php: // Allow for site and per-namespace customization of contribution/copyright notice.

But I have no idea how this could be accomplished. But according to the code comment it's possible. Anyone?

Edit: I created phab:T301483. Alexis Jazz (talk) 11:10, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Leadership Development Task Force: Your feedback is appreciated

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The Community Development team at the Wikimedia Foundation is supporting the creation of a global, community-driven Leadership Development Task Force. The purpose of the task force is to advise leadership development work.

The team is looking for feedback about the responsibilities of the Leadership Development Task Force. This Meta page shares the proposal for a Leadership Development Task Force and how you can help. Feedback on the proposal will be collected from 7 to 25 February 2022. MNadzikiewicz (WMF) (talk) 09:53, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

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Deleting outdated translations

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Hello. Can one of administrator delete outdated translations here? Because it's causing lint errors in Special:LintErrors/html5-misnesting and deleting the outdated translations would rid off lint errors. Thanks. —Baran ^☪︎ 14:30, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

No, those translation units should be updated by translators. Respect the existing translations. Shirayuki (talk) 21:56, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. There's no good reason to delete these. * Pppery * _{it has begun} 22:17, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

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Release status not currently shown on MediaWiki version pages

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The {{MWReleases}} template at the top of MediaWiki version pages (e.g. MediaWiki 1.38) currently does not correctly show the release status. This is caused by an issue with the "IfNotTranslation" template that I have reported at Template talk:IfNotTranslation.

Please try to fix this issue ASAP. GTrang (talk) 04:20, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

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Template:Bundled/fi doesn't exist while most of it's translations does

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I have translated 11 strings of total 15 strings of Template:Bundled to Finnish. Page Template:Bundled/fi still doesn't exist, despite the first translations made by me on 5 February and the display title string have also been translated since 5 Feb. Why doesn't it still exist? Jouluntähti (talk) 09:38, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

I don't see any obvious reason for this. It should probably be reported on Phabricator Ciencia Al Poder (talk) 09:59, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Noting that this was filed as phab:T301764 (which I failed to notice originally and filed a duplicate task, oops) * Pppery * _{it has begun} 15:50, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

The issue is that <translate> tags are used inside JSON content (templatedata), which is not safe. You can avoid issues with <translate nowrap>, but that isn't fully safe either. Nikerabbit (talk) 13:29, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

I've added all the existing translations to templatedata directly. I haven't marked the page for translation yet in case someone wants to double-check (since marking for translation would delete the units). But otherwise it should fix the problem once it gets marked for translation.

We should find other instances of translate tags inside templatedata, and be sure the relevant people adding those tags are aware of the problem. cc @Wladek92, @Shirayuki Ciencia Al Poder (talk) 13:57, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for warning. I rather update the template data form when it exists but the remark is good to know.

Christian 🇫🇷 FR (talk) 17:12, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

The following pages contain ‎<translate> tags and {{PAGELANGUAGE}} inside templatedata:

• Template:DoNotTranslate
• Template:Essay Shirayuki (talk) 21:39, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

do we update tag:templatedata ? may be risk of duplicate if "{{PAGELANGUAGE}}" remains

Christian 🇫🇷 FR (talk) 21:52, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Would it be a good idea to write a Lua module than converts translations from the form the Translate extension produces to the form TemplateData expects? * Pppery * _{it has begun} 22:17, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, such module would require to fetch individual translations from all languages the page has been translated to. That would be one expensive call per language per unit, where we have one unit per parameter and one for the template alone. This can quickly escalate to the current limit of costly calls, which is 500. Ciencia Al Poder (talk) 10:41, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you to @Shirayuki for fixing both of these mistakes. Jdforrester (WMF) (talk) 15:47, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

I haven't marked the page for translation yet in case someone wants to double-check (since marking for translation would delete the units).

The unit pages themselves aren’t automatically deleted, e.g. Translations:Template:Bundled/11/fi still exists, so reverting the edits would restore the translations (although as far as I remember, fuzzy state is lost when the unit is removed and later re-added).

That would be one expensive call per language per unit, where we have one unit per parameter and one for the template alone.

Somewhat silly, but I think template transclusion doesn’t count to that limit (there are other limits on template transclusion, though). So going through all languages, trying to transclude the translations and catching the exception if it doesn’t exist could actually work without reaching the limit. (Although it could make sense to go through the languages, check with #ifexist’s Lua equivalent if the template itself (not a translation unit) exists in that language, and going through only the translation units that may realistically exist. This way we go over 300 languages only once, the rest of the loops go over only the existing few or few dozen languages.) Tacsipacsi (talk) 13:52, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

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Discussion tools deployments

Hello, all.

The Editing team needs to test Talk pages project/Mobile on a live wiki (it sounds like it's mostly about the instrumentation), and I've nominated MediaWiki.org.

Additionally, I kind of think we should just deploy Discussion Tools (all of it) here, by default. The [reply] tool is already turned on for everyone here. It would make it easier for volunteers to see what we're talking about in practice, and since most Talk: pages use Flow, it shouldn't interfere with most people/most pages. (Also, if you don't like it, then you can turn it off in Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing-discussion.) I haven't talked to Editing about that yet, but does anyone have any concerns about that idea? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:15, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Happy from my POV; I'd note that if we think this should get tested widely, we should reverse the decision from years ago to enable StructuredDiscussions by default. Jdforrester (WMF) (talk) 20:38, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes to everything DiscussionTools related and starting to move away from Flow/StructuredDiscussions. Legoktm (talk) 01:49, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

I don't think we need it tested widely here. It should be enough that people can test it, if they're on a suitable page, without having to first go to Special:Prefs to opt in and then find a suitable page. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 02:24, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Update: The rest of DiscussionTools should be enabled here, by default, for everyone on Wednesday, when the devs have a backport window reserved for some other things anyway.

See phab:T311456 for more details. Logged-in users can turn off any pieces they don't want in Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing-discussion. If there are problems, of course, please let me know. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:21, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

If you want to see this, have a look at User talk:Whatamidoing (WMF). It's showing the latest versions. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 21:24, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

يتعلق بانشاء النقاش

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لماذا رفض نشر صفحتي وانا لم افعل شيئ ارجو حل هذا المشكله وشكرا Mustafa9hussam (talk) 20:18, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Your content had nothing to do with mediawiki development. Please see Project:About. Clump (talk) 20:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

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Wiki Loves Folklore is extended till 15th March

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Please help translate to your language

Greetings from Wiki Loves Folklore International Team,

We are pleased to inform you that Wiki Loves Folklore an international photographic contest on Wikimedia Commons has been extended till the 15th of March 2022. The scope of the contest is focused on folk culture of different regions on categories, such as, but not limited to, folk festivals, folk dances, folk music, folk activities, etc.

We would like to have your immense participation in the photographic contest to document your local Folk culture on Wikipedia. You can also help with the translation of project pages and share a word in your local language.

Best wishes,

International Team
Wiki Loves Folklore

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 04:50, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 04:50, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

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Please take this 5 minute MediaWiki maintenance script survey

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Dear MediaWiki users/members,

I am writing to provide an update on the improvements to the MediaWiki maintenance script documentation on mediawiki.org, as well as to ask you to fill out a survey that will help us to understand these improvements better.

Project Pralekhan is a documentation project under which MediaWiki's maintenance script documentation is being improved. Under this project, I have documented 134 scripts so far. Apart from this, the main landing page for maintenance scripts has been improved with a sidebar for easier navigation.

If you are a developer or admin involved in running and maintaining a MediaWiki site, we kindly ask you to respond to this survey by 3 March 2022 (UTC):

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeD7swk2j5SvV0JUtZMADIiY74htZmZq1DoO4gU1vgcfZSrTQ/viewform?usp=sf_link

Your response is highly appreciated. Your input plays a key role in the analysis and recommendations to ensure more improvements to MediaWiki maintenance scripts.

Thank you and regards Jayprakash12345 (talk) 02:01, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

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Unprotect request on User talk:Clump

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Hello. I am new to MediaWiki. I cant't edit the page above because Clump decided to protect that page. Will you temporarily unprotect it for 1 hour please? Thank you if you help me! --Fragguni9989 (talk) 02:14, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Why? Clump (talk) 12:45, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

@Fragguni9989 You can post your enquiry here, and Clump or another administrator will see it. P858snake (talk) 08:16, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

@Clump: To tell you to ask Koavf on wikispecies to unblock me. Fragguni9989 (talk) 00:34, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I have no connection with that wiki. Clump (talk) 13:27, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

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