Engineering Community Team/Meetings/2014-01-14

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#wikimedia-meetbot Meeting[edit]

ECT IRC meeting at 17:00 UTC via #wikimedia-meetbot connect

Meeting notes and IRC logs (backup copy)

Topics:


Meeting started by qgil at 17:00:18 UTC (full logs).

Meeting summary[edit]

  1. Welcome to the Engineering Community Team meeting (qgil, 17:00:36)
    1. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Engineering_Community_Team/Meetings#2013-12-10 (qgil, 17:02:28)

  2. Project management tools/Review (qgil, 17:03:24)
    1. IDEA: add ZenDesk to the list (mutante, 17:08:10)
    2. IDEA: suggest Redmine for project management (free and packaged in Ubuntu) (mutante, 17:08:39)
    3. ACTION: andre__ will ask OIT about ZenDes (guillom, 17:08:47)
    4. ACTION: Andre will look into who's using Asana (sumanah, 17:09:50)
    5. About Asana, see the Learning and Evaluation team; they migrated to it in January 2013: Contacts: Adele Vrana or or Jaime Anstee (guillom, 17:15:06)
    6. IDEA: treat GoogleDocs as another bugtracker/tool (mutante, 17:15:08)
    7. JIRA -non-free, but the problem solves itself when toolserver has been migrated to tool-labs and bugs can be imported (58821( (mutante, 17:16:03)
    8. Asana was apparently also used by the Analytics team at some point; unclear if it's still the case. Ask Diederick who used to use it (guillom, 17:17:38)

  3. Facebook Open Academy (qgil, 17:23:08)
    1. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Facebook_Open_Academy (qgil, 17:23:28)
    2. By design this program has a soft start, where the program puts mentors and students in touch. (qgil, 17:24:09)
    3. Mentors sent a welcoming email to the students. We are warming engines. (qgil, 17:24:29)
    4. We are still hesitating about the defaults for this program since e.g. wikitech-l might be just too big, but only bug reports might be too disperse. (qgil, 17:25:08)
    5. I asked Maryana about the possibility to enable Flow in these project pages at mediawiki.org, and this might be the way to go. (qgil, 17:25:28)
    6. Facebook invites everybody (mentors and students) to their headquarters on February 7-9. This will mark the official beginning of the work, that will last until June depending on (qgil, 17:25:46)
    7. It is the first time we join this program. Expect the unexpected. Still, I think we have all what is needed to succeed. (qgil, 17:31:48)
    8. Main improvements in Bugzilla 4.4 (current stable version) are listed here: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=49597#c12 (andre__, 17:39:42)
    9. We currently run 4.2 on bugzilla.wikimedia.org (andre__, 17:39:46)

  4. Bugzilla 4.4 upgrade (qgil, 17:39:47)
    1. Main improvements in Bugzilla 4.4 (current stable version) are listed here: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=49597#c12 (andre__, 17:40:12)
    2. We currently run 4.2 on bugzilla.wikimedia.org (andre__, 17:40:15)
    3. As WMF Operations Team needs to move our Bugzilla to a new server (zirconium) in our new datacenter anyway, we (mutante and me) use the instance in the new datacenter (which is not accessible to the public) for testing and cleaning up (e.g. mutante puppetizing Bugzilla and removing our Perl CPAN custom stuff under /lib by using distribution packages instead) (andre__, 17:40:18)
    4. we document on https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bug_management/Upgrade-notes-4.2.7-to-4.4.1 (which should be moved to the wikitech.wikimedia.org at some point) (andre__, 17:40:55)
    5. Known blockers in the code to upgrade Bugzilla to 4.4 all sorted out since today; now need to do some more testing of our custom areas, and then we should be ready to move (andre__, 17:41:25)
    6. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:How_to_file_a_report_in_Bugzilla.webm (qgil, 17:47:08)

  5. MediaWiki/Homepage redesign/Design Document (qgil, 17:47:37)
    1. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki/Homepage_redesign/Design_Document (qgil, 17:47:45)
    2. We have started working on this design document, and in my honest opinion it is already good enough to start focusing on draft mockups. (qgil, 17:48:44)
    3. The community has been mostly silent so far... (qgil, 17:48:58)
    4. We are looking for a small group of regular reviewers / stakeholders to make sure we get the right feedback soon and often, and avoid surprises when monteirobrena has completed her internship (qgil, 17:50:01)
    5. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Requests_for_comment/Process#Process_questions (sumanah, 17:57:06)

  6. RFC Process talkpage discussion list (qgil, 17:57:21)
    1. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Requests_for_comment/Process#Process_questions - Sumana just posted, mailed wikitech-l (sumanah, 17:57:41)



Meeting ended at 18:00:07 UTC (full logs).

Action items[edit]

  1. andre__ will ask OIT about ZenDes
  2. Andre will look into who's using Asana



Action items, by person[edit]

  1. andre__
    1. andre__ will ask OIT about ZenDes



People present (lines said)[edit]

  1. qgil (91)
  2. andre__ (62)
  3. sumanah (29)
  4. mutante (22)
  5. guillom (19)
  6. gwicke (9)
  7. monteirobrena (4)
  8. marcoil (2)
  9. meetbot-wm (2)
  10. Coren (1)
  11. Niharika (1)
  12. legoktm (1)



Generated by MeetBot 0.1.4.

17:00:18 <qgil> #startmeeting
17:00:18 <meetbot-wm> Meeting started Tue Jan 14 17:00:18 2014 UTC.  The chair is qgil. Information about MeetBot at https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/46377.
17:00:18 <meetbot-wm> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:31 <sumanah> hi!
17:00:36 <qgil> #topic Welcome to the Engineering Community Team meeting
17:00:48 <qgil> Some introductions: the team is formed by andre__ , guillom , sumanah , and myself: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Engineering_Community_Team
17:00:51 <andre__> hi everybody!
17:01:11 <qgil> Any other participants here for this meeting? Please wave your hand.  :)
17:01:17 * legoktm waves
17:01:20 * Coren waves
17:01:29 * Niharika waves. Just a spectator.
17:01:40 <mutante> watches out of curiosity about meetbot functionality itself
17:01:43 <monteirobrena> hi!
17:01:54 <guillom> Wow, it's crowded today!
17:01:56 <andre__> Cool, so many people. Thanks for the interest!
17:02:06 <qgil> Indeed, thank you!
17:02:17 <qgil> Soon we will need a mic
17:02:20 <qgil> The schedule of the meeting can be found at
17:02:28 <qgil> #link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Engineering_Community_Team/Meetings#2013-12-10
17:02:41 <qgil> If you have any other topics we can discuss them at the end of the meeting.
17:03:07 <qgil> Waves of other participants are still welcome  ;)  They make meetings like these more useful.
17:03:17 <qgil> Let's start:
17:03:24 <qgil> #topic Project management tools/Review
17:03:37 <qgil> andre__, all yours
17:03:42 <andre__> Yay
17:03:42 <qgil> (and guillom )
17:03:44 <andre__> If you hear about this for the first time, please see http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/teampractices/2013-December/000205.html for the background
17:04:02 <andre__> We called for feedback on last Friday: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/teampractices/2014-January/000219.html
17:04:06 * guillom lets andre__ talk for now.
17:04:07 <mutante> can i use #agreed <person> ?
17:04:24 <andre__> and one person has filled out https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Project_management_tools/Review so far
17:04:43 <andre__> we are also going to explicitly contact people who listed themselves at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project_management_tools/Review#Participants_.2F_Stakeholders
17:05:00 <qgil> mutante, feel at home
17:05:01 <guillom> andre__: 6 people :)
17:05:17 <andre__> uh? I'm too stupid to reload my open browser tabs then, sorry :P
17:05:19 * marcoil waves, although I'm more of an spectator :)
17:05:22 <guillom> :D
17:05:37 <andre__> ...and the thread on the teampractices@ mailing list sees folks from Mozilla and OpenStack joining, providing more input. Which is cool.
17:05:51 <mutante> andre__ listed the following tools "bugzilla, RT, Trello, Mingle". I would like to add ZenDesk to that
17:06:07 <andre__> ...so that's the summary currently from my side. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project_management_tools/Review#Status always shows the "Status" (and we do update it!)
17:06:29 <andre__> mutante: who could describe ZenDesk and its use on the wikipage?
17:06:33 <guillom> I don't have much to add to andre__ 's summary
17:06:54 <guillom> OIT maybe?
17:06:59 <mutante> andre__: OIT, Chip Deubner
17:07:17 <sumanah> Asana
17:08:02 <andre__> if we agree on who I should contact to list ZenDesk there, I can do that :)
17:08:10 <mutante> #idea add ZenDesk to the list
17:08:29 <andre__> and I should probably use "info" here for the bot - I'm bad in that, sorry
17:08:39 <mutante> #idea suggest Redmine for project management (free and packaged in Ubuntu)
17:08:47 <guillom> #action andre__ will ask OIT about ZenDes
17:08:53 <guillom> damn
17:08:57 <andre__> -k
17:09:27 <guillom> Can we edit meetbot-wm ? :)
17:09:50 <sumanah> #action Andre will look into who's using Asana
17:10:02 <sumanah> that okay? I know we are or were using it, I can't recall which team specifically
17:10:41 <andre__> interesting. I admit I've never heard about it
17:10:47 <guillom> Me neither
17:10:49 <andre__> I wonder how to find out
17:10:50 <sumanah> (I would not be surprised if there's a team here or there using a Google Docs spreadsheet)
17:11:02 <andre__> I do know that some teams use Google Docs for some tasks, yeah
17:11:03 <sumanah> andre__: I can brainstorm with you about that outside of this meeting
17:11:23 <guillom> andre__: Learning & Evaluation
17:11:41 <guillom> andre__: So ask Adele?
17:11:46 <guillom> iirc
17:11:59 <mutante> i added myself to the stakeholders list
17:12:02 <andre__> Adele Vrana of grantmaking?
17:12:02 <guillom> Worst case she can point to the right person
17:12:05 <mutante> for RT comments
17:12:25 <andre__> mutante: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Project_management_tools/Review is all yours :)
17:12:42 <guillom> andre__: she also works in Programs. But yes :)
17:12:59 <andre__> refering to Google Docs, I remember Wikimania HongKong.
17:13:03 <andre__> JamesF said: "VisualEditor moved from Bugzilla to Mingle to Trello to task lists in Google Docs."
17:13:07 <guillom> andre__: or Jaime Anstee
17:13:08 <andre__> just FYI
17:13:24 <mutante> JIRA - as a user it's nice, as an admin you hate it, and non-free, but the problem solves itself when toolserver has been migrated to tool-labs
17:13:33 <mutante> and i hear bugs have been imported, right
17:13:44 <guillom> andre__: they apparently "Migrated team over to Asana for evaluation requests" a year ago.
17:14:00 <andre__> yes, we can import (Toolserver) tickets from JIRA thanks to valhallasw, see https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=58821
17:14:58 <andre__> I see!
17:15:06 <guillom> #info About Asana, see the Learning and Evaluation team; they migrated to it in January 2013: Contacts: Adele Vrana or or Jaime Anstee
17:15:08 <mutante> #idea treat GoogleDocs as another bugtracker/tool
17:16:03 <mutante> #info JIRA -non-free, but the problem solves itself when toolserver has been migrated to tool-labs and bugs can be imported (58821(
17:17:27 <qgil> any other questions / comments?
17:17:38 <guillom> #info Asana was apparently also used by the Analytics team at some point; unclear if it's still the case. Ask Diederick who used to use it
17:18:28 <mutante> #comment While these tools may seem similar, not all of them are strictly the same category of software, a (software) bug tracker is not identical to a general issue tracker or a project management tool
17:18:38 <mutante> #opinion google docs is probably the worst choice
17:19:00 * andre__ thinks that mutante has tried all commands that meetbot offers now
17:19:17 <mutante> and the ones that dont yet:)
17:20:42 <qgil> Let's start wrapping up in order to have time for the other points
17:21:22 <qgil> andre__, ready?
17:22:08 <andre__> I thought we already have a number of input lines now in meetbot, but let me try
17:22:30 <qgil> andre__, no, I mean if you are ready to change topic  :)
17:22:34 <andre__> ah :)
17:22:40 <andre__> yes!
17:22:47 <andre__> tell me the next topic! :)
17:23:08 <qgil> #topic Facebook Open Academy
17:23:20 <qgil> ( andre__ you go afterthis topic with Bgzilla 4.4. ok?)
17:23:25 <andre__> qgil, sure
17:23:28 <qgil> #link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Facebook_Open_Academy
17:23:41 <qgil> ust a note to say that this is progam indeed starting.  :)
17:23:52 <qgil> We have some mentors here. Hi Coren, gwicke, marcoil !
17:24:01 <marcoil> hi
17:24:09 <qgil> #info By design this program has a soft start, where the program puts mentors and students in touch.
17:24:20 <qgil> This is the point where we are now: the projects and mentors you can see in the wiki page got a number of students allocated.
17:24:29 <qgil> #info Mentors sent a welcoming email to the students. We are warming engines.
17:24:38 <qgil> There is some additional coordination at a program level in a Facebook group, but most of the team/project work will happen in the community channels we decide.
17:24:48 <qgil> In fact this poses a somewhat new situation for us.
17:24:57 <qgil> We have community channels, we have channels for established teams, and we also have developed a way of working for individual contributors for Google Summer of Code and FOSS Outreach Program for Women.
17:25:08 <qgil> #info We are still hesitating about the defaults for this program since e.g. wikitech-l might be just too big, but only bug reports might be too disperse.
17:25:18 <qgil> There is of course wiki pages and talk pages. In fact...
17:25:28 <qgil> #info I asked Maryana about the possibility to enable Flow in these project pages at mediawiki.org, and this might be the way to go.
17:25:37 <qgil> We will see.
17:25:46 <qgil> #info Facebook invites everybody (mentors and students) to their headquarters on February 7-9. This will mark the official beginning of the work, that will last until June depending on
17:26:01 <qgil> the school calendar of the different universities
17:26:11 <qgil> The main difference ref other outreach programs will probably be that mentors here are more project managers, organizing the work among several developers.
17:26:25 <qgil> In exchange of that, we expect less need for 1:1 support, and less risk of getting one student stuck, since peer support should play a big role.
17:26:32 <qgil> Questions? Comments?
17:26:41 <sumanah> qgil: I'm sorry, I haven't quite understood yet - when will we get to virtually meet the students? will there be an office hour?
17:27:16 <gwicke> we are already answering question by students who are starting to play with the software
17:27:31 * sumanah assumes there's going to be mediawiki.org project hubs for each project, linked from https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Facebook_Open_Academy , sort of like https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/UCOSP_Spring_2012
17:27:38 <qgil> sumanah, we haven't decided a date for an all-hands yet. We are still getting in touch at a team level. It should happen before the Facebook face to face all-hands
17:27:47 <gwicke> but the group size definitely means that communicating via a wiki page rather than 1:1 on IRC is necessary
17:28:06 <sumanah> Flow seems like a good idea potentially
17:29:15 <qgil> I hae been playing with Flow at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Flow and I believe that alpha-beta software will be a lot better than getting students introduced to the science of colon-based discussions...
17:29:18 <sumanah> qgil: in my experience with UCOSP -- there were 4 students, and they did need really quite a lot of mentorship at the beginning, and of course code review for 4 people's work, completed in a timely manner... you get lucky if one of the students on the team takes leadership
17:29:24 <gwicke> a small ad-hoc mailing list could also be useful
17:29:58 <qgil> sumanah, as far as I can see mentors are the ones that must push the leadership
17:30:04 <mutante> do they already know IRC?
17:30:28 <qgil> each student is dedicating about 4-8 hours a week (one credit) + optonal volunteering
17:30:41 <gwicke> mutante, I guess many don't
17:31:02 <sumanah> in some ways that's nice - there's less frustration when the student has to wait for code review if they have other classes to work on in the meantime
17:31:12 <qgil> mutante, I'm less concerned about each student knowing / learning how to use a communication tool individually. My concern is pure coordination, discussion, project management
17:31:13 <mutante> gwicke: yea, in those cases i usually suggest chatzilla, but it takes away from the time to explain that
17:31:17 <gwicke> but with 14 or so students plus mentors that does not work so well unless you set up meetings
17:31:40 <sumanah> is Facebook running a general Intro To Open Source Tool Usage thing at the face-to-face meetup?
17:31:48 <qgil> #info It is the first time we join this program. Expect the unexpected. Still, I think we have all what is needed to succeed.
17:32:00 <sumanah> (git, bug trackers, mailing lists, IRC, etc.)
17:32:02 <qgil> One key, as always, is to be modes defining scope and goals.
17:32:06 <qgil> modest
17:32:21 <qgil> Start humble, get something accomplished, add mre if needed.
17:32:55 <qgil> As opposed to being very ambitious and end up frustrated because, surprise surprise, a team of part time students doesn't perform as your team of full time professional devs
17:33:22 <qgil> (and even those get delays and some nasty surprises)
17:33:50 <sumanah> will any of the students need any special privileges or devices that we could start getting set up now?
17:33:54 <qgil> sumanah, no idea abut their program for the meeting yet
17:33:56 <gwicke> mutante, freenode also has a web chat
17:34:06 * sumanah remembers a UCOSP student had trouble because they lacked an Android device
17:34:28 * sumanah checks
17:34:41 <qgil> sumanah, almost all teams of students are mentored by the maintainers of the related components. I don't expect problems there.
17:34:50 <mutante> i have noticed students going on IRC and asking similar to "i want to solve bug 12345. who helps me?", and then not getting a mentor that way, as IRC regulars expect specific questions before they are responding
17:34:59 <sumanah> +1 mutante
17:35:06 <andre__> but this is related to "asking good questions".
17:35:08 <gwicke> mutante: http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=mediawiki-parsoid
17:35:16 <mutante> gwicke: good point, yea
17:35:22 <andre__> I've explained to several people that they shouldn't paste a link only, but also mention the field of the code and such.
17:35:36 <andre__> ...as I'm more likely to answer if you don't make me click first :)
17:35:46 <qgil> mutante, that is a problem different than the one we are discussing here. It is more related with  our planned revamp of https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Annoying_little_bugs
17:36:04 <andre__> ...which is on my list for next month, based on what we've learned from Google Code-In.
17:36:09 <sumanah> I think the problem mutante has mentioned is related to this
17:36:11 <qgil> mutante, with all the lessons learned thanks to https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Google_Code-In
17:36:34 <mutante> qgil: gotcha, yea, i used the Annoying little bugs link several times now, it's nice to have
17:36:36 <sumanah> in that acclimating all our students/participants to our ways of communication is one of the things our mentors have to do
17:36:45 <qgil> sumanah, mutante well, in this case we won't have students alone on IRC asking for tasks:, all of them will have 1-2 mentors to refer to
17:37:05 <sumanah> I think we're talking at cross purposes here, I'll leave it alone
17:37:42 <gwicke> IMO IRC is great for GSOC and help once people are started
17:37:45 <qgil> sumanah, yes let's discuss later. Your experience here is very important!
17:37:52 <gwicke> but it does not work well to get an entire group started
17:39:02 <qgil> Let's move on.
17:39:27 <andre__> alright
17:39:31 <andre__> #topic Bugzilla upgrade from 4.2 to 4.4
17:39:33 <qgil> I might send an email to wikitech-l to continue this discussion, or at least share how are
17:39:42 <andre__> #info Main improvements in Bugzilla 4.4 (current stable version) are listed here: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=49597#c12
17:39:43 <qgil> we planning to work in this Open Acaemy program
17:39:46 <andre__> #info We currently run 4.2 on bugzilla.wikimedia.org
17:39:47 <qgil> #topic Bugzilla 4.4 upgrade
17:39:51 <qgil> now  :)
17:39:54 <andre__> whoops, sorry
17:39:56 <andre__> I am too fast
17:40:05 <qgil> you are, which is fine
17:40:12 <andre__> #info Main improvements in Bugzilla 4.4 (current stable version) are listed here: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=49597#c12
17:40:15 <andre__> #info We currently run 4.2 on bugzilla.wikimedia.org
17:40:18 <andre__> #info As WMF Operations Team needs to move our Bugzilla to a new server (zirconium) in our new datacenter anyway, we (mutante and me) use the instance in the new datacenter (which is not accessible to the public) for testing and cleaning up (e.g. mutante puppetizing Bugzilla and removing our Perl CPAN custom stuff under /lib by using distribution packages instead)
17:40:40 <andre__> ...which means we try to "do it properly", so it took longer than initially expected because we started cleanly from scratch on the new server and sorted out every issue (naively I had thought we might get it done last year, but people also dare to take vacations over Christmas! ;-)
17:40:55 <andre__> #info we document on https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bug_management/Upgrade-notes-4.2.7-to-4.4.1 (which should be moved to the wikitech.wikimedia.org at some point)
17:41:06 <andre__> Refering to recent progress in the last days, our custom CSS issues got fixed yesterday by Sean Pringle deploying a newer database version
17:41:15 <andre__> ...and today (with the help of upstream developers) we fixed our errors with our custom URLs for Mingle and SourceForge not working, yay!
17:41:25 <andre__> #info Known blockers in the code to upgrade Bugzilla to 4.4 all sorted out since today; now need to do some more testing of our custom areas, and then we should be ready to move
17:41:36 <andre__> that's all. Feedback, comments, questions very welcome!
17:43:01 <qgil> Let me say Big Thank You to mutante and andre__ for the patience and the attention to detail. I don't know how many iterations you have gone through already.
17:43:27 <andre__> It's been very interesting so far, I've learned quite some stuff about the code. Plus next time we have a proper setup.
17:43:32 <qgil> And all the extra work cleaning old cruft you have done using the excuse of the upgrade.  :)
17:44:01 <andre__> we still have some darker areas in our custom code, but not that many anymore :)
17:45:16 <qgil> ok?
17:45:31 <andre__> no questions? Meh :)
17:45:59 <andre__> I must also say that in the last week I've received some contributed patches by newcomers for our custom Bugzilla code. Which is cool!
17:46:20 <qgil> and a screncast of how to file a irst bug usig the new guided form
17:46:32 <sumanah> (big thanks to mutante & andre__ & springle et alia!)
17:46:44 <andre__> true, the screencast! https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:How_to_file_a_report_in_Bugzilla.webm
17:46:52 <andre__> I'm really happy with it.
17:47:08 <qgil> #link https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:How_to_file_a_report_in_Bugzilla.webm
17:47:11 <qgil> alright
17:47:14 <andre__> and maybe a last word on Bugzilla related stuff:
17:47:22 <andre__> Bugzilla Etiquette draft: Commenting and editing is still ongoing on https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bug_management/Bugzilla_Etiquette though frequency is getting lower now, so I guess we'll be fine really soon(TM) and can finalize
17:47:30 <andre__> alright, that's all from my side
17:47:35 <qgil> thank you
17:47:37 <qgil> #topic MediaWiki/Homepage redesign/Design Document
17:47:45 <qgil> #link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki/Homepage_redesign/Design_Document
17:47:54 <qgil> monteirobrena is a FOSS Oureach Program for Women intern based in Brazil, and she is working on this project mentored by heatherw and myself. Hi!
17:48:21 <monteirobrena> hello everyone ;)
17:48:35 <andre__> hi!
17:48:44 <qgil> #info We have started working on this design document, and in my honest opinion it is already good enough to start focusing on draft mockups.
17:48:58 <qgil> #info The community has been mostly silent so far...
17:49:07 <qgil> I expect this to change as soon as we have the first realistic mockups, and people see that we are serious.  :)
17:49:50 <andre__> ...or even a Labs instance where this can be seen, at some point? :)
17:50:01 <qgil> #info We are looking for a small group of regular reviewers / stakeholders to make sure we get the right feedback soon and often, and avoid surprises when monteirobrena has completed her internship
17:50:26 <qgil> andre__, no need for a Lapbs instnce, it is simply a wiki page that can be created somewhere
17:50:54 <qgil> andre__, in fact mediawiki.org is perfect, so we can test any templates tc
17:51:06 <andre__> true
17:51:08 <qgil> Questions / comments?
17:51:33 <monteirobrena> what can we do to attract more attention?
17:52:10 <qgil> monteirobrena, heatherw and myself can be found at #mediawiki , this is our default channel
17:52:52 <mutante> andre__: now i missed the BZ part, sorry. anything i should add?
17:52:59 <sumanah> monteirobrena: : is there discussion on the design mailing list?
17:53:01 <andre__> mutante, don't think so
17:53:02 * sumanah checks
17:53:15 <monteirobrena> sumanah: yes
17:53:26 * sumanah skims http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/design/2014-January/thread.html and should look in Dec as well
17:53:57 <qgil> sumanah, monteirobrena started a thread , and this week we sent a reminder to wikitech-l
17:54:49 <qgil> I think it's key to get some people with strong opinions officially involved as stakeholders
17:55:27 <qgil> The main risk is not to get any feedback despite emails sent to mailing lists, and then get a wave of criticism when the work is basically done.
17:55:46 <mutante> qgil: comment about BZ from ops perspective, what andre_ said, it takes so long because we are trying to do it "right" and solve 3 or more things at once, move away from Tampa server, put on new hardware, upgrade to 4.4, puppetize as a proper module (done), apply and adjust our custom stuff on top of upstream etc
17:56:19 <qgil> Thank you mutante
17:56:35 <qgil> 4 minutes left, any other topics or should we keep the homepage redesign?
17:56:55 <sumanah> I have just posted an RFC Process talkpage discussion list
17:57:06 <sumanah> #info https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Requests_for_comment/Process#Process_questions
17:57:12 <qgil> sumanah, wait
17:57:14 <sumanah> just FYI, for those of you who wish to comment.
17:57:21 <qgil> #topic  RFC Process talkpage discussion list
17:57:25 <sumanah> oh sorry
17:57:41 <sumanah> #info https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Requests_for_comment/Process#Process_questions - Sumana just posted, mailed wikitech-l
17:58:49 <qgil> The RFC process has seen some improvements in the past month. It will be great to agree on the process we want, and just roll it.  :)
17:59:14 <qgil> Any questions?
18:00:03 <qgil> Alright, thank you very much everybody! See you here in a month.
18:00:07 <qgil> #endmeeting