Talk:MediaWiki/Homepage redesign/Design Document

The scope of mediawiki.org + highlighting Wikipedia
In my opinion a big problem of the mediawiki.org homepage (and the site) is the fact that here we do and coordinate a lot more things than what can be deduced by a newcomer. All things MediaWiki need to be in place, sure. However, it is important to stress that no less than Wikipedia is based on MediaWiki, newest MediaWiki versions and many new features are tested there first. We won't solve here the deeper problem "MediaWiki" vs "Wikimedia tech", but we can't miss this chance to use the Wikipedia card, and get more downloads, contributors and reputations thanks to it.--Qgil (talk) 19:44, 18 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I believe that show the environment and benefits of using MediaWiki is more important than showing technical requirements and show Wikipedia as a use case is more than necessary but we need show others cases, too. --monteirobrena (talk) 03:44, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

How to contribute
This is an open source project and it is important that any visitor realizes that it is also possible to contribute in many ways. See How to contribute.--Qgil (talk) 19:46, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

The sidebar
We are limited by MediaWiki itself and by the Vector skin, and therefore we will keep the same structure of the page. However, we have flexibility in the design of the left column with the sidebar. We should check at its content, and we could also consider what can we do with CSS alone to highlight some items. Currently I don't think anybody is paying much attention to it.--Qgil (talk) 19:49, 18 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree about the highlight some items. I as a new user of MediaWiki, I failed to notice that the sidebar is the same on every page and upload the option was there. --monteirobrena (talk) 03:28, 19 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I've added another note about the skin in case it is useful. heather walls (talk) 18:35, 31 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Just linking to a draft I started some months back, not to forget about it: User:Qgil/mediawiki.org sidebar. Honestly I don't remember much about it. If it is useful as starting point, fine. If not let's just ignore it.--Qgil (talk) 16:43, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I propose a new groups of links to sidebar. --monteirobrena (talk) 15:48, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Mockup updated with proposed sidebar. --monteirobrena (talk) 14:26, 21 January 2014 (UTC)


 * The sections of the sidebar can be either collapsed or expanded by default. The mockup should reflect the default status that an anonymous user would find the first time they land in mediawiki.org. We definitely don't want to show a sea of options by default, therefore I would say that all sections are collapsed by default, unless we have a good reason to expand just one.--Qgil (talk) 18:08, 22 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Ok, the sidebar expanded was just to show all subitems proposed but I'll collapsed in the next version of mockup. --monteirobrena (talk) 18:48, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

The benefits
I searched for a description of the benefits that we can take when using MediaWiki but not found. I appreciate if anyone has this information and can share here. --monteirobrena (talk) 15:25, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I found this informations Manual:Before installing, Possible uses of MediaWiki and Comparison of wiki software --monteirobrena (talk) 16:09, 19 December 2013 (UTC)


 * True that is. As far as I know we don't have a ready-made pitch for MediaWiki. We will need to create one (and this is beyond your scope, in my plate). One idea is to search online "why MediaWiki?" to see how others are pitching our software. Anyway, for this document what is important is to stress that the homepage needs to highlight the top n benefits, but if we haven't nailed down the list it is fine at this point, I think.--Qgil (talk) 05:46, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * ✅. This question will be discussed here. --monteirobrena (talk) 14:05, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Deprecating the RFC "MediaWiki.org Main Page tweaks"
Please let me know when you are confident that any relevant point at Requests for comment/MediaWiki.org Main Page tweaks is reflected in the design document. Then we can organize a small review to agree on the deprecation of that document. Once Heather, you, and me agree, you will request the closure of that RFC, ok?--Qgil (talk) 06:00, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I tried to extract and compile all relevant points and add in Design Document, for me sounds like enough to our review. --monteirobrena (talk) 15:02, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * OK, let's wait to have a solid design document, and then we (meaning you) :) will propose the deprecation of that RFC.--Qgil (talk) 16:41, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I think in this moment we could declare that RFC is deprecated. The Design Document covers the main points and ideas of RFC "MediaWiki.org Main Page tweaks". --monteirobrena (talk) 20:20, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Clearer priorities
Something to be improved in this document is a clear definition of priorities. The section Rationale, Main problems of current homepage, and Contents suggested by the community show many points, and it is easy to lose the attention. The sorting matters, and even a visual distinction between very important points and the rest would be welcome. Now it looks like the the lack of harmonization in colors is a big problem, while perhaps not many eyes will arrive to the important questions that this homepage is not answering. Prioritization is a key aspect of design and project planning. Don't be surprised if you end up spending more time reordering and deleting than writing. That is good.--Qgil (talk) 06:07, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree that the lack of harmonization in colors is a big problem but I think this is almost the last thing that will fix because it depends on the content and structure of the page. --monteirobrena (talk) 15:42, 23 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I still think that that structure of the document doesn't reflect what we want to do and why. Also the amount of text in the intro and Rationale doesn't help getting quick to the point. You might have lost many potential stakeholders / contributors lost already at that point. "Questions" is almost at the end and, in fact, captures the essence of what really matters. If we agree on the questions that the MWO homepage should answer then we have a good start. If we agree on those questions then we can see which ones the current homepage is answering, and how effectively, and which ones are totally missing. Once the list of questions/answers is agreed, we could start working on details.--Qgil (talk) 19:42, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


 * This is a good point. We should set up this discussion and ask community to participate. (Meaning, we should probably set up another RFC rather than expect people to show up to the old one.) heather walls (talk) 20:27, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


 * ✅. I analyzed and answered the questions which the current page is responding. --monteirobrena (talk) 15:53, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Most viewed pages in mediawiki.org
File:25 most viewed articles 201304.png could be replaced by a table in real text. At the end it just shows text, and it would be more readable and editable as text. Also we should link to the page. Note that the data of the bot is from April 2013, and we don't even know whether it is counting the full month or not. Maybe the statistic now are different... One question, why are you giving this prominence to this list of viewed pages? Just asking. Perhaps the current homepage influences that list. In any case it would be useful to understand what are these pages and group them somehow. For instance, "Extension:DPLforum" is not that relevant but it is relevant to know that users go to mediawiki.org to do something (what?) with information about MediaWiki extensions.--Qgil (talk) 06:17, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I not found the summary of the latest statistics. I found this but the search must be page by page. I'm sure the current homepage influence on the statistics. I highlight this list to reflect if these pages are what we want to be the most accessed. And if not, what we can do to bring more access to the pages we want.--monteirobrena (talk) 16:34, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * ✅. The statistics gave an idea about the pages that need to receive highlight, but the data are outdated and will not be considered in this Design Document. --monteirobrena (talk) 20:48, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Copy text
In Questions & answers I think the questions make total sense in this document but I'm less sure about the answers. Heather will know better, but do we need to get in such detail in the text, almost feeling like aiming to be final copy text? I just fear that these sentences can attract to much attention and arguments, while the big important and also more abstract points of the document are almost ignored. At this point it is not very relevant why exactly we want to use MediaWiki. What matters is that we want the homepage to answer this question. Etc.--Qgil (talk) 06:23, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * You are absolutely right. At this point, we don't need worry about answering these questions. --monteirobrena (talk) 15:11, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually I think the document is exactly for writing out all of your thoughts. Part of the way we create a design solution is to first answer the questions in text or diagram and discuss them. I do agree that matters of importance need to be prioritized while "other issues" can be moved to a catch-all section. I think the rest of the document would benefit from further explanation of the list elements. heather walls (talk) 20:23, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I tried to answer the questions in another version of the document. Do you think is relevant put it back? --monteirobrena (talk) 15:54, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Duplicated process
MediaWiki/Homepage_redesign/Design_Document and MediaWiki/Homepage_redesign largely overlap. Do you need this information in the design document? Yes or no, at the end there would be one list in one place, and then as many links as needed pointing to it.--Qgil (talk) 06:27, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * ✅. Actually the Deliverables is about my activities on OPW and I move it for my page. The Steps section refers to the iterative process that will be used in the construction of the project and I think it's better to keep it on MediaWiki/Homepage_redesign. --monteirobrena (talk) 15:47, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Internal links, external links, references...
I'm not sure about your use of references. This is a working document, not an encyclopedia article or an academic work. I would say that the use of links directly is more clear and efficient. Remember to link properly to internal pages and interwiki pages. See Help:Links.--Qgil (talk) 06:30, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * ✅. Moved references to links directly. --monteirobrena (talk) 18:41, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

The Download Button
While I like the placement of the download button in the new layout draft, I do think that underneath it, right above the "Or try and contribute" link, there should be links to download the previous two releases, in the event that someone wants to download MediaWiki but doesn't want the latest version or whatever. Similar to how php.net has three versions listed. That's just my opinion. --GeorgeBarnick (talk) 16:21, 24 December 2013 (UTC)


 * That is contradictory point. In Requests for comment/MediaWiki.org Main Page tweaks some people said that prefere keep just one download link that redirect to page where has links to download the previous three releases. We currently have links to the last three release notes, the table below has amount of accesses in the last 30 days. Perhaps this statistic can help us decide if we should keep them. I personally prefer something more succinct like the Firefox. --monteirobrena (talk) 16:23, 26 December 2013 (UTC)


 * {| class="wikitable"

! Page !! Amount of accesses
 * Download
 * style="text-align:right;" | 120873
 * Release notes 1.22
 * style="text-align:right;" | 4853
 * Release notes 1.21
 * style="text-align:right;" | 4324
 * Release notes 1.19
 * style="text-align:right;" | 3308
 * }
 * Release notes 1.19
 * style="text-align:right;" | 3308
 * }
 * }


 * We can discuss this further when the right time comes. At this point what matters is whether "How can I get MediaWiki?" is a question the homepage should answer, and I m sure we all agree that yes, it is an important question. :)  --Qgil (talk) 20:04, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


 * ✅. This question will be discussed here. --monteirobrena (talk) 13:29, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Good lessons and inspiration
Here are some good lessons observed in other websites that we can get some inspiration. The most sites of software highlights the benefits and qualities to awakening interest to get and use the tool. We can see this in sites like Ubuntu, AngularJS, Fedora, Firefox and Gnome. The site OpenOffice classifies information into categories that facilitate and direct the users to find what they want. Sites as Android and Joomla show the amount of instances being used around the world. The Git and Play Framework show who are using. GitHub's site show some screenshots and describe why user will love use it. Monteirobrena (talk • contribs) 10:49, 27 December 2013‎ (UTC)


 * This collection of sites is very good. Let's find a way to include it in the design document itself, either as a declared list of source of inspiration, good examples... and/or or embedded in the plan, for instance "The homepage should be also cleaner to be more XYZ, see for instance (links to appropriate examples).--Qgil (talk) 16:27, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ✅. Collection embedded in the plain, were also added other good examples. Thanks for the tip ;) --monteirobrena (talk) 23:02, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Language selector
The current box to select language on homepage occupy much space. I test the Extension:LanguageSelector and use it sounds better to me. I think we could use LANGUAGE_SELECTOR_AS_PORTLET selector but this configuration would apply for all pages and I doubt if this is acceptable. --monteirobrena (talk) 12:19, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Let's not challenge the current bars at the top of the page (English, Create account... and "MediaWiki.org, Discussion...). They follow default MediaWiki, they are deployed this way in all Wikimedia wikis, and if we try to touch them it might be technically complex and a source of unnecessary controversy.--Qgil (talk) 19:46, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Ok, but this extension can add language selector under on sidebar not on top. --monteirobrena (talk) 11:32, 31 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Ok, I won't fight this at this point, since at this stage it is an implementation detail. I like your willingness to challenge different areas!--Qgil (talk) 16:34, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ✅. Ok, this time we will keep the box language. --monteirobrena (talk) 16:06, 9 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Sorry, in fact I interpreted your suggestion wrongly. I thought you were referring to the language selector in the header, when in fact you refer to the huge box of languages on top of the footer. That box is indeed big and filled. I'd say let's remove it from now. In an ideal world the language selector at the top should be enough. Also think that users with browsers in non-English should get the homepage in their language by default. Is that true in mediawiki.org though? Have you tried with a browser configured in Portuguese? In any case I just found Bug 30047 - Language selection does not change the Content-language which is very relevant to this discussion.--Qgil (talk) 22:09, 9 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I tried with my browser configured in Portuguese and I didn't get the homepage in my language by default. --monteirobrena (talk) 10:47, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Questions from Main problems of current homepage and possible solutions
Thanks! heather walls (talk) 20:16, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Barely tapped space. - Can you say more about this and what it means? What would some solutions be?
 * 2) Does not transmit any feeling to visitors. - What feeling do you think it should transmit? What could be changed to make that happen?


 * I think the homepage has gaps in "Current version" and "New opportunities" boxes. The language and category boxes occupy unnecessary space too.
 * We could:
 * remove current version and use just a download button
 * merge boxes "News" and "New opportunities" to "News & Opportunities"
 * fix the limite of items to show on "News & Opportunities" box
 * move language selector to sidebar


 * Alacrity. The homepage needs to convey how warm and active community is working hard to make an incredible software. Also can pass how the powerful and reliable is MediaWiki.
 * We could:
 * add a video that show how community works, something like this
 * use colors more atractive and happy photos
 * add showcases, testimonials, logos of organization that use MediaWiki
 * show the amount of downloads and instances using MediaWiki


 * --monteirobrena (talk) 13:21, 31 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The list of problems would benefit from prioritization and grouping, just like you did with the Questions. We have problems related with the message (unanswered questions, lack of feelings, organization by people/actions, duplicated links, download versions, technical words, statistics, core/extensions, sidebar), look & feel (colors, icons, images), layout (white spaces, language selector, user box in header).


 * We also need to identify the problems we agree that are important and the solutions we agree that should be implemented. Then we can also list other problems someone has report but either lack agreement on the solution or the problem itself.


 * Please work on these points. Then we can start go through each problem and agree on our current understanding.--Qgil (talk) 23:33, 6 January 2014 (UTC)


 * The problems were categorized and prioritized, are ready to identify the problems that we agree to resolve. --monteirobrena (talk) 15:05, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Removing the chrome of MediaWiki
Moiz and Jared have started a proposal to create BarebonesMediaWiki, a version of MediaWiki without the usual interface elements around the frame. I wanted to point this out in case it is helpful to your design development or final project. heather walls (talk) 18:32, 31 December 2013 (UTC)


 * This project is very interesting. I'm sure will be helpful. We could gain more space to work if we use it. Thank you. --monteirobrena (talk) 10:54, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


 * That project is indeed interesting, and I didn't know about it. Thank you! However, it is in a very early stage, and even if it would be deployed and available for mediawiki.org tomorrow, I would expect a lot of backlash for any proposal willing to implement it here. The project itself says that it is a solution targeted to "microsites", which mediawiki.org is definitely not. Also note that mediawiki.org is probably supposed to showcase MediaWiki itself in its full potential (Is it? If so, we should add this point to the design document). Having a mediawiki.org site that doesn't look like a MediaWiki site kind of defeats the purpose. As commented in other places, I would not challenge the existence of the current MediaWiki navigation bars in mediawiki.org. Instead, I would try to improve them as much as technically possible using plain MediaWiki features like custom CSS and definition of the items we want there.--Qgil (talk) 16:32, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ✅. Ok, this moment we will make the mockups without considering BarebonesMediaWiki project. --monteirobrena (talk) 23:13, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

About the Rationale
Currently the main paragraph of the Rationale basically says:


 * the community has been discussing about the homepage, reporting problems and enhancements (but we don't specify any)
 * there is an overall agreement on the need to redesign the homepage (but we can't point to such agreement)
 * the homepage leaves some major questions unanswered (but we don't specify which)
 * the homepage must help visitors choosing MediaWiki instead of other alternatives (ok, this is an argument)

This sounds like a vague rationale for a homepage redesign. What about something in these lines:


 * the mediawiki.org homepage should do A, B, C
 * however, currently it only does 1, 2, 3 because of X, Y, Z
 * the community has tried to discuss, agree and implement improvements since 2012 with little results.
 * solving these problems requires a general plan, a coordinated action that this design document describes.

"A, B, C" are the top priorities of the homepage, Which are they? "1, 2, 3" explains how far the current homepage is from the top priorities. "X, Y, Z" describes the main problems of the current homepage.

What do you think?--Qgil (talk) 22:18, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I think this is a good struct to rationale and I tried keep it there. Thank you ;) --monteirobrena (talk) 15:44, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I have tried to simplify and sharpen the text of the Rationale (and also the first paragraph). Feel free reverting or modifying at will, of course. With this, I will dive to the Problems section.--Qgil (talk) 23:12, 6 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ✅. Much better now. Thank you. --monteirobrena (talk) 23:18, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

About the Questions
I think the current list of Questions is good, but perhaps has still some room for improvement. Also, the picture could be clearer by grouping those questions.

These try to convince new adopters:


 * What is MediaWiki?
 * What problem it solves?
 * Why would I want to use it?
 * Who uses it?
 * How can I get it?
 * Why we adore MediaWiki? (needs rephrasing)

As we can see, this front is pretty much covered but I would still add:


 * How can I customize and extend MediaWiki?

This one focuses on current users (editors and sysadmins, very different profiles)


 * How can I use it?

I would add


 * Where can I get help?
 * Where can I report a problem?

And this one focuses on contributors:


 * Why to contribute to MediaWiki?

I would add


 * Who makes MediaWiki?
 * How to start contributing?

All these might be too many questions to answer in a homepage. If you think so then we need to be selective.--Qgil (talk) 22:46, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Ok, I see that you liked the idea. :) One last comment, about "What problem it solves?", "Why would I want to use it?", and "Why we appreciate MediaWiki?" Aren't these more or less the same? It is clear that we need to explain, but maybe we can solve these three questions at once.--Qgil (talk) 22:23, 6 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree that "Why would I want to use it?" and "Why we appreciate MediaWiki?" are likely to be answered by the benefits, but I think the answer to "What problem it solves?" needs to be very clear. --monteirobrena (talk) 23:51, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

"Improvements and contents suggested by the community"
The content of this section should be simply merged as problems & solutions. I know you did this to highlight the proposals coming from previous community discussions, but the design document is the place to merge old and new discussions into a single plan. A current problem is equally relevant, regardless of who reported it and how long ago.--Qgil (talk) 23:17, 6 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ✅. That's correct. The content of this section was merged. --monteirobrena (talk) 23:21, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

The video (that we don't have)
There are several references of a video showing how great our community is. I agree, such video would be great (and in fact I added it to my backlog not to forget about this idea). The fact is though that we don't have it, neither I expect us to have it any time soon. Therefore, it is better not to count on it.--Qgil (talk) 20:44, 7 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I think the video can be replaced by other media as a photo that pass the same idea. --monteirobrena (talk) 23:23, 7 January 2014 (UTC)


 * On a second thought, having an area in the content dedicated to a featured video might be a good idea. Just not the ideal community showcase video (that we don't have) but videos showcasing upcoming features or interesting meetings (we produce those regularly, and in fact they would welcome more audience). We could update this video module whenever there is a better video available.--Qgil (talk) 18:56, 10 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ✅. Let's keep the placeholder for the video. --monteirobrena (talk) 15:39, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Popular pages
In the relation to the missing questions, the document recommends to "Add "Popular Pages" or "Frequently Accessed/Requested Pages" box (preferably with automatic update)." I don't see how this relates to the questions, though. Popular pages can be popular (meaning that can score high in page visits) for many reasons unrelated to these questions. One of the detected problems of the current homepage is the proliferation of links. And let's not forget, we still have the sidebar. For all this, I believe we don't need "Popular pages", even less provided automatically.--Qgil (talk) 21:01, 7 January 2014 (UTC)


 * This idea appeared in Requests for comment and has been discussed without reaching a resolution. I think the new layout can have the necessary links and spread across the page without a box to keep them. --monteirobrena (talk) 16:32, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ✅. Removed recommendation: "Add "Popular Pages" or "Frequently Accessed/Requested Pages" box (preferably with automatic update)." --monteirobrena (talk) 19:12, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Showing statistics
In relation with the missing questions, the document suggests to "Show statistics about MediaWiki (preferably with automatic update)." Which statistics, though? Do we have references of websites that are showing off (reliable) statistics in their homepages? I mean, we could provide a couple of numbers, like "more than 3000 extensions", "about 700 contributors"... but is there any specific idea for more detailed stats, updated automatically?--Qgil (talk) 21:11, 7 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Under the point about transmitting feelings there is another mention to stats: "Show the amount of downloads and instances using MediaWiki, see for instance: Android and Joomla." These numbers are tricky: people get MediaWiki from different sources, many MediaWikis are private intranets... https://wikiapiary.com/ has some numbers we can trust, e.g. number of extensions. Still, I woul ask ourselves what number do we need to inject those feelings. I know that when I installed my first MediaWiki I cared very little about the number of instances out there. I knew there were "many" and my simple math was that "if it works for Wikipedia it must work for me".--Qgil (talk) 21:19, 7 January 2014 (UTC)


 * This is a good point. In fact the exploration of showcases can be more effective than statistics to awaken interest of new users. --monteirobrena (talk) 17:05, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ✅. Let's keep the focus on providing and highlight the showcases. --monteirobrena (talk) 16:25, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

About bucketing developers
The document says "Bucketing people makes more difficult to find information " but then in the same point it actually recommends to "Split developers into "Core" and "Extensions"". I actually believe that the best approach is to have a single and prominent call to all developers in the homepage, channeling them to another page e.g. Developer hub. Next to this there should be another call to get involved (open to any contributors, not just developers), pointing to How to contribute.--Qgil (talk) 21:34, 7 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree it is very contradictory keep the two ideias. In my opinion, we could have one call to developers instead divide into two parts. I also think we should have a prominent call to contributors. --monteirobrena (talk) 17:25, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ✅. Removed recommendation: "Split developers into "Core" and "Extensions". --monteirobrena (talk) 19:06, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Link to live demo
I like the idea of offering a link to a MediaWiki live demo. However, where should this link point to? Unless I have missed it, we don't have a pure MediaWiki live demo, offering what a user gets after installing plain MediaWiki (like e.g. http://installatron.com/mediawiki/demo does). Even in that case, plain MediaWiki doesn't contain most of the interesting features nowadays (Echo, VisualEditor, Scribunto...) which make think that perhaps a(n additional) possibility would be to expose https://test2.wikipedia.org/ a bit more. Maybe has better ideas?--Qgil (talk) 21:54, 7 January 2014 (UTC)


 * It is important use the environment that has the most recent features and using the test of the Wikipedia could be very positive. . --monteirobrena (talk) 17:55, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ✅. Let's keep the link to live demo. --monteirobrena (talk) 16:10, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I've frequently heard that stock installs of mediawiki frequently get overrun with spam, due to some extensions not being installed by default, this could lead to a negative experience for people using the demo, since the site itself is a live demo…of…itself, is this needed? Jaredzimmerman (WMF) (talk) 02:43, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
 * In fact we have removed the link to the live demo in the last versions, just to keep the homepage as simple as possible. The idea of the live demo might still be good, and featured at the Get MediaWiki page. There are things like http://installatron.com/mediawiki/demo that we could link to. Another idea could be to have an instance in Labs reinstalled automatically once a day with a predefined configuration and list of extensions (I should file a request about this). Anyway, not a priority in the context of this exercise now.--Qgil (talk) 07:45, 23 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ✅. As discussed the link/button for live demo was removed. --monteirobrena (talk) 10:53, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

News & New opportunities
About "Merge boxes "News" and "New opportunities" to "News & Opportunities"", I agree that there is a problem with these boxes but I don't think merging them is the solution. They are different things. New opportunities is in fact synced with Project:Calendar and, if we want to show feelings and community, it probably should stay since it points to occasions to meet the community online or face to face.--Qgil (talk) 22:07, 7 January 2014


 * In this case we could give more highlight to "New opportunities" and perhaps think in another title to this box as "Find us" or "Join/Approach the community". --monteirobrena (talk) 18:35, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

News is more problematic, since it takes such a big portion of the homepage and it is basically unmaintained and neglected (mea culpa). We have Tech/News and we have https://blog.wikimedia.org/c/technology/, both Wikimedia-centric but (if you ask me) better than nothing. We could improve based on that. Oh, and we also have the MediaWiki accounts in Social media.--Qgil (talk) 22:07, 7 January 2014 (UTC)


 * About the "News" I think that a prominent link to blog or/and Tech/News could be enough. --monteirobrena (talk) 18:35, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * On a related note, you might be interested in how the Italian Wikipedia is now automatically showing the latest tech newsletter on their community portal. This is done by using labeled section transclusion from the page where we post the newsletter. It's trivial to replicate it here, simply by using, where FOO is a page where we can post the newsletter. Given how easy it is to set up, I think it might be worth trying out in one of your proposals, even if only for the sake of discussion. guillom 12:58, 15 January 2014 (UTC)


 * In terms of visually showcasing the community, I really like this photo, suggested by Monteirobrena. I'll try to incorporate it in my mockup. Additionally, what do you think about replacing this image with photos from other, recent community events from time to time in the future?. --Courier New (talk) 20:42, 27 January 2014 (UTC)


 * What about adding the potential assets we find at MediaWiki/Homepage_redesign/Design_Document?--Qgil (talk) 23:17, 27 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Added a new gallery to potential assets. Thank you.--monteirobrena (talk) 13:39, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Color palette
A bit of context to be considered for the color palette:


 * It would be useful to document the palette used currently, if only to see where are we starting from
 * It is also good to be aware of Wikimedia Foundation Design/Color usage. mediawiki.org doesn't aim to be fully aligned with the Wikimedia palette and must have an own personality. Still, it cannot harm to be aware of that palette
 * About the MediaWiki logo... I would be a bit careful. It is one of the oldest logos around and its color schema doesn't even try to be a reference of anything. If it is still there untouched it is because nobody has got the guts to challenge it. :)  It makes sense to make the palette of a site consistent with its logo, but in that case I think we could take into consideration the color choices of File:Mediawiki logo reworked 2.svg, which already look a lot better
 * Finally, should mediawiki.org display the default appearance of a MediaWiki installation or should it aim to differ? http://drupal.org and http://wordpress.org have similar looks to a default install (in terms of color schema). Then again plain Drupal and Wordpress install do look better than a plain MediaWiki install... Food for thought.

, I'm looking forward to seeing how you start applying the palette to elements of the page. :) --Qgil (talk) 22:49, 9 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I like this proposal for the logo and I tried starting a new draft of logo but I assume that isn't my strongest. About the color scheme of the default installation is hard to say, because we only have a predominance of gray and white. --monteirobrena (talk) 13:35, 10 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Believe me, you don't want to touch the logo. That is a different battle and you have more than enough pushing a new mediawiki.org homepage. Touch the homepage palette instead. :) --Qgil (talk) 18:53, 10 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, I know. It was just a little idea that I wanted to share. Don't worry ;) --monteirobrena (talk) 15:57, 13 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Let me insist on "It makes sense to make the palette of a site consistent with its logo, but in that case I think we could take into consideration the color choices of File:Mediawiki logo reworked 2.svg, which already look a lot better." I think that combination of blue - yellow - brown works better and feels more MediaWiki than the one currently proposed, even if that one (with the orange) is more accurate to the picture of the sunflower. However, I can't really comment more about the palette until I see it applied to a mockup. As a pure palette it is too abstract, as there is no indication of what color i supposed to be used for what.--Qgil (talk) 22:44, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Brown is a very dangerous colour to be using for this sort of thing. Yellow, too, but the yellow here is orange enough that it should be fine. Hopefully. Thing is, on computer screens yellows and browns (which are just darker yellows, really) aren't real colours. They're about halfway between red and green, and they can come out all manner of differently on different screens, and when you have a whole lot of yellow, especially as a flat colour, it tends to look really weird. It's like we recognise it as yellow, but our brain still sees something not quite right about it. Brown is even worse because it's less of the colour (more black/no colour), and also because there are quite a few negative things we tend to associate with it just in general - bad cooking and earthworms being somewhat more dinner-friendly examples.
 * Avoid brown, please. -— Isarra ༆ 00:05, 30 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Isarra, I was not sure about using the brown color and I removed it. I tried the orange before but I'm still in doubt. Could you suggest some color to complete the palette? Thank you. --monteirobrena (talk) 10:34, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Structure of the page
Let's see if we can start consolidating a structure of the page, based on the experiments done so far. All of them bet on horizontal sections of the page, which provides flexibility to add/remove/sort. The last mockup has these sections:


 * 1) intro + download
 * 2) basic destinations + contribute
 * 3) benefits/features
 * 4) testimonials
 * 5) community (videos + join us)

Here is a proposal for (I believe) a simpler and more consistent organization:


 * 1) keep intro + download
 * 2) continue with benefits/features, which is part of the intro.
 * 3) continue with community
 * 4) Finish with testimonials / featured logos of users, since this is quite a standard e.g. Git.

This also means:
 * Get rid of basic destinations + contribute. One section less.
 * Integrate the basic destinations in, that should be enhanced with CSS.
 * Merge Contribute with Join us.

What do you think?--Qgil (talk) 20:26, 14 January 2014 (UTC)


 * The proposal of "Join us" section is the same of current "New Opportunities", show what the community is doing and invite the people to participate. I think we can merge the sections adding a button "Contribute" in this section. I agree with testimonials as the last section like Git, but I'm not sure about change basic destinations to sidebar. I think this items (image + text + link) help the new users to find information more fast and I still believe that need highlights. --monteirobrena (talk) 12:50, 15 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Mockup updated. --monteirobrena (talk) 15:39, 15 January 2014 (UTC)


 * MMmok, but even in that case it is good that we start working on the content of the sidebar, and its design. Currently we are relying on the default look&feel of a MediaWiki sidebar but we can do more than that.--Qgil (talk) 22:58, 15 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I still think that those "basic destinations" add cruft to a crowded homepage. If they are properly highlighted in the sidebar then they are basically repetitive in the body content.I'm liking the evolution of the mockup. In the last iteration these basic destination stand between the intro and the features. Not good. If you are not yet convinced, can you please at least have a parallel version of the mockup omitting these fours basics destinations, so we can compare? Thank you.--Qgil (talk) 22:51, 21 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree it's repetitive with the proposed in sidebar and I removed the "basic destinations" to compare. --monteirobrena (talk) 01:46, 22 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Good progress! What about this sorting:
 * screenshot with big "Edit"
 * "MediaWiki is a collaborative publishing platform for" (left, justified) + "Get MediaWiki" (right)
 * Embed (left) + Discuss (right)
 * Translate + Extend
 * On the go + Freely


 * That's it, no extra titles "MediaWiki, Proud to be free...". Below the community section would continue, but let's leave that for later. What do you think?--Qgil (talk) 23:23, 22 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Right! I updated the first two sections of the mockup and now I'll focus on realistic mockup of a default page/view. Thank you. --monteirobrena (talk) 00:13, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Sites using MediaWiki
Besides the Wikipedia which other sites we want to highlight? I think we could use the sites on Testimonials page but on Sites using MediaWiki should has a good cases, too.


 * Let's draft/decide this at MediaWiki/Homepage redesign/Texts.--Qgil (talk) 22:56, 15 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ✅. This question will be discussed here. --monteirobrena (talk) 13:34, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Suggestions received by the mailing list
To share, discuss and document the suggestion received on mailing list:

Email and mockup.


 * Two thoughts about 's mockup: thank you for your interest in contributing to Wikimedia!, I think we can agree that the mediawiki.org site should showcase MediaWiki's appearance instead of hiding it. Customizations to header, sidebar, and footer are welcome and needed, but imho removing them is not an option.--Qgil (talk) 19:05, 18 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi, thank you for taking the time to give feedback on my proposal. I can see how removing the default mediawiki ui can seem rather drastic. I agree that some elements, such as the logo, should be kept and MediaWiki's interface should be showcased in some way (screenshots could be an option). However, I don't understand how the default header, footer and sidebar help us solve the problems, and answer the questions laid out in the design document. IMHO, removing them helps drawng attention to the main content tell our story. best, --Courier New (talk) 20:12, 18 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I'll try to explain better. mediawiki.org is powered by a MediaWiki using the Vector skin (makes sense). mediawiki.org is the first showcase of MediaWiki. This setup provides the header and sidebar for all pages, and offers the default look&feel of a MediaWiki instance. Your proposed design basically removes all the specifics of the MediaWiki UI. Also, what happens when you click any link leading to another mediawiki.org page? Is the user landing in a page that looks like this one here, or are you also proposing to use the same structure for all the pages of the site?--Qgil (talk) 22:27, 21 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you for making that clear. I understand that we're not changing the look of MediaWiki itself here, and my proposals only apply to the homepage. However, I'd strongly recommend basing design decisions like this on the list of questions, rather than anything else. At the moment, it's not clear to me how the default ui answers any of those questions. --Courier New (talk) 12:20, 22 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, the first question is "What is MediaWiki?". A good way to help answering this question in the mediawiki.org homepage is to display the distinctive MediaWiki homepage setup that (thanks to Wikipedia) everybody is familiar with.--Qgil (talk) 15:42, 22 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I see your point. In my opinion though, while being very helpful at showing what an installation of MW looks like, the header and sidebar do not fully explain what MW is. We'd still need explaining text to do that. And to show off the look of MW, a big, nice screenshot (perhaps of a user who's logged in and everything) might be more effective than a live interface that most visitors won't be able to interact with anyways (Because they're not logged in / don't have accounts on mediawiki.org / don't know how the interface works yet)


 * In addition to that, we still have the separate live demo to show the interface in action. --Courier New (talk) 16:16, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Telling a story
There are many open and non-opensource CMS platforms that we can look to for inspiration of what to do and what not to do.

Best in Class
 * Gutensite
 * Adobe Catalyst
 * Squarespace
 * Shopify
 * MODx
 * Movable Type
 * ExpressionEngine
 * Ghost
 * Storehouse

Patterns to avoid
 * Mediawiki
 * Concrete 5
 * Sitecore
 * Joomla
 * Droopal
 * ProcessWire

Extension specific
 * Chrome Store
 * Wordpress plugins

If you look through the best in class examples, the common thread among them is telling a story rather than talking about features, I'd love to have us focus more on what mediawiki means as far as flexibility (who uses it) and the developer community around it.

I'm happy to work with heather walls and anyone working on the proposal to review designs and offer feedback on any proposals. Jaredzimmerman (WMF) (talk) 19:45, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
 * But why? Why are these good and bad? What's the underlying reasoning? Instead of 'do/don't do X', 'Don't do X because the coding conventions recommend against it' is so much more verbose and useful, for example. -— Isarra ༆ 20:42, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I like your point about telling a story, but those stories are written based on a good knowledge of the features that make the product strong compared with other alternatives. All this to say that in any case we need to do our homework, draft a list of features and bet for the ones we want to push. Then a story a can be defined based on that list.--Qgil (talk) 22:05, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I have started drafting the underlying elements of the MediaWiki story.--Qgil (talk) 23:18, 17 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ✅. I agree that structure the homepage telling a story is a good way to redesign. I created a new version of mockup to start the new structure. --monteirobrena (talk) 13:50, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

mediawiki.ui and agora styles
I'd love to try to stay closer to the new mediawiki.ui / for this which means colors, spacing, typography, controls, and behaviors. Jaredzimmerman (WMF) (talk) 19:45, 17 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, at I had also recommended to keep in mind Wikimedia Foundation Design/Color usage and I'm all for relying on mediawiki.ui / Agora. --Qgil (talk) 22:08, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Going for a mobile-first design approach
Considering more and more people are accessing the internet via smartphones, tablets and stuff, I'd strongly recommend going for a responsive, mobile-first design. Doing this would require us to move away from mockups (for a while) and think about the design in a more abstract way: Which colors are we going to use? What will the typography look like? Imho, using the agora styleguide as a starting point will be very helpful in this regard.

While this seems reasonable from a designer's perspective, I do not know about possible technical limitations that might come in our way MediaWiki when we implementing a responsive design. BarebonesMediaWiki looks like it could help us out, though.

Going for a responsive design will definitely take more effort, but from my point of view the long-term benefits make it worth. What do you think? --Courier New (talk) 20:07, 20 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Currently mediawiki.org is using Extension:MobileFrontend for its mobile view, and we are basically limited by that functionality. There are plans to develop a fully responsive skin for MediaWiki, and when that happens we could use that approach. I agree with you that the desktop site must take into consideration the mobile experience and be conditioned by it, but creating a responsive skin is out of scope in this homepage redesign.--Qgil (talk) 22:32, 21 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your response. I understand that developing an entire responsive skin is far out of scope. But why shouldn't we go ahead and make at least the homepage responsive? From what I understand, we are able to add our own CSS, and really that's all we'd need to implement a responsive design. If that isn't possible though we should, in my opinion, start thinking about the "mobile view", before going over to the big screens. --Courier New (talk) 10:59, 22 January 2014 (UTC)


 * In the current setup it doesn't matter what styling are you applying to the default (desktop) view. When accessing the site from a mobile device, MobileFrontend will take over and will re-draw everything. Challenging this technical setup is out of scope in this project / iteration.--Qgil (talk) 15:31, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Huge images
The current design bets a lot on 3 + 1 huge images that are identified as screenshots. Maybe the 3 screenshots for the intro will work, but we need to decide and produce these images. I'm less sure about the big image at the center of the Features section. What magic image would that be? And doesn't a second big centered image compete with the images in the intro? What about having a smaller image next to each feature? I think it can work well especially after removing the basic destinations.--Qgil (talk) 22:58, 21 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I like the idea to have a smaller image next to each feature and I applied in the new version of mockup. Thank you. --monteirobrena (talk) 01:44, 22 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Good! I'm still thinking about the kind of images we should use for the big format. Screenshots... MediaWiki is not particularly attractive, and a single screenshot won't attract much attention. Then again we have zero budget for e.g. creative pictures, although I wonder if there is something interesting in huge Commons... I just browsed a bit looking for inspiration and I found this:


 * Interesting backgrounds... I also had the opposite thought: getting rid of the big images in the intro and put a huge "Edit" with a nice free font as illustration, next to the intro text.
 * Just brainstorming. :) --Qgil (talk) 07:30, 22 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree that screenshots of MediaWiki might not be the best option. I guess a typography-centered design would could very well, especially since the MediaWiki experience and brand are quite focused on text. Just adding huge images for the sake of having huge images doesn't seem like the best idea to me. --Courier New (talk) 10:54, 22 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Perhaps we can add a single screenshot like this and put a huge "Edit" in the center. --monteirobrena (talk) 14:52, 22 January 2014 (UTC)


 * For the sake of trying out things, please take a screenshot of VisualEditor in action avoiding to show any Wikipedia/Wikimedia/MediaWiki specific brand. Don't spend too much time producing this screenshot, I'm sure we will have more ideas when we see it in the mockup in its context. Looking forward to see a first result!--Qgil (talk) 18:34, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Realistic mockup
Take a look at the initial draft of the realistic mockup here. All feedbacks are very welcome ;) --monteirobrena (talk) 20:58, 27 January 2014 (UTC)


 * By realistic mockup I still meant a mockup, 100% graphic, not based on wikitext yet. Please propose first a mockup with your preferred graphics design tool, including the actual look & feel you want for the content, the sidebar, etc. When we agree on the mockup then we will start working on the HTML/wikitext. Sorry for the confusion.--Qgil (talk) 23:10, 27 January 2014 (UTC)


 * No problem. I'll do it ;) --monteirobrena (talk) 00:35, 28 January 2014 (UTC)


 * If you're working on something intended for a MediaWiki page, I would like to point out that MediaWiki is actually an excellent graphics design tool. -— Isarra ༆ 00:08, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Icons
Hi! I see your note on #mediawiki but your link is to some older icons. Echo would be a good start for some icons, language, and colors. heather walls (talk) 00:48, 28 January 2014 (UTC)