Talk:MediaWiki/Homepage redesign/Design Document

The scope of mediawiki.org + highlighting Wikipedia
In my opinion a big problem of the mediawiki.org homepage (and the site) is the fact that here we do and coordinate a lot more things than what can be deduced by a newcomer. All things MediaWiki need to be in place, sure. However, it is important to stress that no less than Wikipedia is based on MediaWiki, newest MediaWiki versions and many new features are tested there first. We won't solve here the deeper problem "MediaWiki" vs "Wikimedia tech", but we can't miss this chance to use the Wikipedia card, and get more downloads, contributors and reputations thanks to it.--Qgil (talk) 19:44, 18 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I believe that show the environment and benefits of using MediaWiki is more important than showing technical requirements and show Wikipedia as a use case is more than necessary but we need show others cases, too. --monteirobrena (talk) 03:44, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

How to contribute
This is an open source project and it is important that any visitor realizes that it is also possible to contribute in many ways. See How to contribute.--Qgil (talk) 19:46, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

The sidebar
We are limited by MediaWiki itself and by the Vector skin, and therefore we will keep the same structure of the page. However, we have flexibility in the design of the left column with the sidebar. We should check at its content, and we could also consider what can we do with CSS alone to highlight some items. Currently I don't think anybody is paying much attention to it.--Qgil (talk) 19:49, 18 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree about the highlight some items. I as a new user of MediaWiki, I failed to notice that the sidebar is the same on every page and upload the option was there. --monteirobrena (talk) 03:28, 19 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I've added another note about the skin in case it is useful. heather walls (talk) 18:35, 31 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Just linking to a draft I started some months back, not to forget about it: User:Qgil/mediawiki.org sidebar. Honestly I don't remember much about it. If it is useful as starting point, fine. If not let's just ignore it.--Qgil (talk) 16:43, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

The benefits
I searched for a description of the benefits that we can take when using MediaWiki but not found. I appreciate if anyone has this information and can share here. --monteirobrena (talk) 15:25, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I found this informations Manual:Before installing, Possible uses of MediaWiki and Comparison of wiki software --monteirobrena (talk) 16:09, 19 December 2013 (UTC)


 * True that is. As far as I know we don't have a ready-made pitch for MediaWiki. We will need to create one (and this is beyond your scope, in my plate). One idea is to search online "why MediaWiki?" to see how others are pitching our software. Anyway, for this document what is important is to stress that the homepage needs to highlight the top n benefits, but if we haven't nailed down the list it is fine at this point, I think.--Qgil (talk) 05:46, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Deprecating the RFC "MediaWiki.org Main Page tweaks"
Please let me know when you are confident that any relevant point at Requests for comment/MediaWiki.org Main Page tweaks is reflected in the design document. Then we can organize a small review to agree on the deprecation of that document. Once Heather, you, and me agree, you will request the closure of that RFC, ok?--Qgil (talk) 06:00, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I tried to extract and compile all relevant points and add in Design Document, for me sounds like enough to our review. --monteirobrena (talk) 15:02, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * OK, let's wait to have a solid design document, and then we (meaning you) :) will propose the deprecation of that RFC.--Qgil (talk) 16:41, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Clearer priorities
Something to be improved in this document is a clear definition of priorities. The section Rationale, Main problems of current homepage, and Contents suggested by the community show many points, and it is easy to lose the attention. The sorting matters, and even a visual distinction between very important points and the rest would be welcome. Now it looks like the the lack of harmonization in colors is a big problem, while perhaps not many eyes will arrive to the important questions that this homepage is not answering. Prioritization is a key aspect of design and project planning. Don't be surprised if you end up spending more time reordering and deleting than writing. That is good.--Qgil (talk) 06:07, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree that the lack of harmonization in colors is a big problem but I think this is almost the last thing that will fix because it depends on the content and structure of the page. --monteirobrena (talk) 15:42, 23 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I still think that that structure of the document doesn't reflect what we want to do and why. Also the amount of text in the intro and Rationale doesn't help getting quick to the point. You might have lost many potential stakeholders / contributors lost already at that point. "Questions" is almost at the end and, in fact, captures the essence of what really matters. If we agree on the questions that the MWO homepage should answer then we have a good start. If we agree on those questions then we can see which ones the current homepage is answering, and how effectively, and which ones are totally missing. Once the list of questions/answers is agreed, we could start working on details.--Qgil (talk) 19:42, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


 * This is a good point. We should set up this discussion and ask community to participate. (Meaning, we should probably set up another RFC rather than expect people to show up to the old one.) heather walls (talk) 20:27, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


 * ✅. I analyzed and answered the questions which the current page is responding. --monteirobrena (talk) 15:53, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Most viewed pages in mediawiki.org
File:25 most viewed articles 201304.png could be replaced by a table in real text. At the end it just shows text, and it would be more readable and editable as text. Also we should link to the page. Note that the data of the bot is from April 2013, and we don't even know whether it is counting the full month or not. Maybe the statistic now are different... One question, why are you giving this prominence to this list of viewed pages? Just asking. Perhaps the current homepage influences that list. In any case it would be useful to understand what are these pages and group them somehow. For instance, "Extension:DPLforum" is not that relevant but it is relevant to know that users go to mediawiki.org to do something (what?) with information about MediaWiki extensions.--Qgil (talk) 06:17, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I not found the summary of the latest statistics. I found this but the search must be page by page. I'm sure the current homepage influence on the statistics. I highlight this list to reflect if these pages are what we want to be the most accessed. And if not, what we can do to bring more access to the pages we want.--monteirobrena (talk) 16:34, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Copy text
In Questions & answers I think the questions make total sense in this document but I'm less sure about the answers. Heather will know better, but do we need to get in such detail in the text, almost feeling like aiming to be final copy text? I just fear that these sentences can attract to much attention and arguments, while the big important and also more abstract points of the document are almost ignored. At this point it is not very relevant why exactly we want to use MediaWiki. What matters is that we want the homepage to answer this question. Etc.--Qgil (talk) 06:23, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * You are absolutely right. At this point, we don't need worry about answering these questions. --monteirobrena (talk) 15:11, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually I think the document is exactly for writing out all of your thoughts. Part of the way we create a design solution is to first answer the questions in text or diagram and discuss them. I do agree that matters of importance need to be prioritized while "other issues" can be moved to a catch-all section. I think the rest of the document would benefit from further explanation of the list elements. heather walls (talk) 20:23, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I tried to answer the questions in another version of the document. Do you think is relevant put it back? --monteirobrena (talk) 15:54, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Duplicated process
MediaWiki/Homepage_redesign/Design_Document and MediaWiki/Homepage_redesign largely overlap. Do you need this information in the design document? Yes or no, at the end there would be one list in one place, and then as many links as needed pointing to it.--Qgil (talk) 06:27, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Actually the Deliverables is about my activities on OPW and I move it for my page. The Steps section refers to the iterative process that will be used in the construction of the project and I think it's better to keep it on MediaWiki/Homepage_redesign. --monteirobrena (talk) 15:47, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Internal links, external links, references...
I'm not sure about your use of references. This is a working document, not an encyclopedia article or an academic work. I would say that the use of links directly is more clear and efficient. Remember to link properly to internal pages and interwiki pages. See Help:Links.--Qgil (talk) 06:30, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

The Download Button
While I like the placement of the download button in the new layout draft, I do think that underneath it, right above the "Or try and contribute" link, there should be links to download the previous two releases, in the event that someone wants to download MediaWiki but doesn't want the latest version or whatever. Similar to how php.net has three versions listed. That's just my opinion. --GeorgeBarnick (talk) 16:21, 24 December 2013 (UTC)


 * That is contradictory point. In Requests for comment/MediaWiki.org Main Page tweaks some people said that prefere keep just one download link that redirect to page where has links to download the previous three releases. We currently have links to the last three release notes, the table below has amount of accesses in the last 30 days. Perhaps this statistic can help us decide if we should keep them. I personally prefer something more succinct like the Firefox. --monteirobrena (talk) 16:23, 26 December 2013 (UTC)


 * {| class="wikitable"

! Page !! Amount of accesses
 * Download
 * style="text-align:right;" | 120873
 * Release notes 1.22
 * style="text-align:right;" | 4853
 * Release notes 1.21
 * style="text-align:right;" | 4324
 * Release notes 1.19
 * style="text-align:right;" | 3308
 * }
 * Release notes 1.19
 * style="text-align:right;" | 3308
 * }
 * }


 * We can discuss this further when the right time comes. At this point what matters is whether "How can I get MediaWiki?" is a question the homepage should answer, and I m sure we all agree that yes, it is an important question. :)  --Qgil (talk) 20:04, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Good lessons and inspiration
Here are some good lessons observed in other websites that we can get some inspiration. The most sites of software highlights the benefits and qualities to awakening interest to get and use the tool. We can see this in sites like Ubuntu, AngularJS, Fedora, Firefox and Gnome. The site OpenOffice classifies information into categories that facilitate and direct the users to find what they want. Sites as Android and Joomla show the amount of instances being used around the world. The Git and Play Framework show who are using. GitHub's site show some screenshots and describe why user will love use it. Monteirobrena (talk • contribs) 10:49, 27 December 2013‎ (UTC)


 * This collection of sites is very good. Let's find a way to include it in the design document itself, either as a declared list of source of inspiration, good examples... and/or or embedded in the plan, for instance "The homepage should be also cleaner to be more XYZ, see for instance (links to appropriate examples).--Qgil (talk) 16:27, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ✅. Collection embedded in the plain, were also added other good examples. Thanks for the tip ;) --monteirobrena (talk) 23:02, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Language selector
The current box to select language on homepage occupy much space. I test the Extension:LanguageSelector and use it sounds better to me. I think we could use LANGUAGE_SELECTOR_AS_PORTLET selector but this configuration would apply for all pages and I doubt if this is acceptable. --monteirobrena (talk) 12:19, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Let's not challenge the current bars at the top of the page (English, Create account... and "MediaWiki.org, Discussion...). They follow default MediaWiki, they are deployed this way in all Wikimedia wikis, and if we try to touch them it might be technically complex and a source of unnecessary controversy.--Qgil (talk) 19:46, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Ok, but this extension can add language selector under on sidebar not on top. --monteirobrena (talk) 11:32, 31 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Ok, I won't fight this at this point, since at this stage it is an implementation detail. I like your willingness to challenge different areas!--Qgil (talk) 16:34, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Questions from Main problems of current homepage and possible solutions
Thanks! heather walls (talk) 20:16, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Barely tapped space. - Can you say more about this and what it means? What would some solutions be?
 * 2) Does not transmit any feeling to visitors. - What feeling do you think it should transmit? What could be changed to make that happen?


 * I think the homepage has gaps in "Current version" and "New opportunities" boxes. The language boxes occupy unnecessary space too.
 * We could:
 * remove current version and use just a download button
 * merge boxes "News" and "New opportunities" to "News & Opportunities"
 * fix the limite of items to show on "News & Opportunities" box
 * move language selector to sidebar


 * Alacrity. The homepage needs to convey how warm and active community is working hard to make an incredible software. Also can pass how the powerful and reliable is MediaWiki.
 * We could:
 * add a video that show how community works, something like this
 * use colors more atractive and happy photos
 * add showcases, testimonials, logos of organization that use MediaWiki
 * show the amount of downloads and instances using MediaWiki


 * --monteirobrena (talk) 13:21, 31 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The list of problems would benefit from prioritization and grouping, just like you did with the Questions. We have problems related with the message (unanswered questions, lack of feelings, organization by people/actions, duplicated links, download versions, technical words, statistics, core/extensions, sidebar), look & feel (colors, icons, images), layout (white spaces, language selector, user box in header).


 * We also need to identify the problems we agree that are important and the solutions we agree that should be implemented. Then we can also list other problems someone has report but either lack agreement on the solution or the problem itself.


 * Please work on these points. Then we can start go through each problem and agree on our current understanding.--Qgil (talk) 23:33, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Removing the chrome of MediaWiki
Moiz and Jared have started a proposal to create BarebonesMediaWiki, a version of MediaWiki without the usual interface elements around the frame. I wanted to point this out in case it is helpful to your design development or final project. heather walls (talk) 18:32, 31 December 2013 (UTC)


 * This project is very interesting. I'm sure will be helpful. We could gain more space to work if we use it. Thank you. --monteirobrena (talk) 10:54, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


 * That project is indeed interesting, and I didn't know about it. Thank you! However, it is in a very early stage, and even if it would be deployed and available for mediawiki.org tomorrow, I would expect a lot of backlash for any proposal willing to implement it here. The project itself says that it is a solution targeted to "microsites", which mediawiki.org is definitely not. Also note that mediawiki.org is probably supposed to showcase MediaWiki itself in its full potential (Is it? If so, we should add this point to the design document). Having a mediawiki.org site that doesn't look like a MediaWiki site kind of defeats the purpose. As commented in other places, I would not challenge the existence of the current MediaWiki navigation bars in mediawiki.org. Instead, I would try to improve them as much as technically possible using plain MediaWiki features like custom CSS and definition of the items we want there.--Qgil (talk) 16:32, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ✅. Ok, this moment we will make the mockups without considering BarebonesMediaWiki project. --monteirobrena (talk) 23:13, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

About the Rationale
Currently the main paragraph of the Rationale basically says:


 * the community has been discussing about the homepage, reporting problems and enhancements (but we don't specify any)
 * there is an overall agreement on the need to redesign the homepage (but we can't point to such agreement)
 * the homepage leaves some major questions unanswered (but we don't specify which)
 * the homepage must help visitors choosing MediaWiki instead of other alternatives (ok, this is an argument)

This sounds like a vague rationale for a homepage redesign. What about something in these lines:


 * the mediawiki.org homepage should do A, B, C
 * however, currently it only does 1, 2, 3 because of X, Y, Z
 * the community has tried to discuss, agree and implement improvements since 2012 with little results.
 * solving these problems requires a general plan, a coordinated action that this design document describes.

"A, B, C" are the top priorities of the homepage, Which are they? "1, 2, 3" explains how far the current homepage is from the top priorities. "X, Y, Z" describes the main problems of the current homepage.

What do you think?--Qgil (talk) 22:18, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I think this is a good struct to rationale and I tried keep it there. Thank you ;) --monteirobrena (talk) 15:44, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I have tried to simplify and sharpen the text of the Rationale (and also the first paragraph). Feel free reverting or modifying at will, of course. With this, I will dive to the Problems section.--Qgil (talk) 23:12, 6 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ✅. Much better now. Thank you. --monteirobrena (talk) 23:18, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

About the Questions
I think the current list of Questions is good, but perhaps has still some room for improvement. Also, the picture could be clearer by grouping those questions.

These try to convince new adopters:


 * What is MediaWiki?
 * What problem it solves?
 * Why would I want to use it?
 * Who uses it?
 * How can I get it?
 * Why we adore MediaWiki? (needs rephrasing)

As we can see, this front is pretty much covered but I would still add:


 * How can I customize and extend MediaWiki?

This one focuses on current users (editors and sysadmins, very different profiles)


 * How can I use it?

I would add


 * Where can I get help?
 * Where can I report a problem?

And this one focuses on contributors:


 * Why to contribute to MediaWiki?

I would add


 * Who makes MediaWiki?
 * How to start contributing?

All these might be too many questions to answer in a homepage. If you think so then we need to be selective.--Qgil (talk) 22:46, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Ok, I see that you liked the idea. :) One last comment, about "What problem it solves?", "Why would I want to use it?", and "Why we appreciate MediaWiki?" Aren't these more or less the same? It is clear that we need to explain, but maybe we can solve these three questions at once.--Qgil (talk) 22:23, 6 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree that "Why would I want to use it?" and "Why we appreciate MediaWiki?" are likely to be answered by the benefits, but I think the answer to "What problem it solves?" needs to be very clear. --monteirobrena (talk) 23:51, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

"Improvements and contents suggested by the community"
The content of this section should be simply merged as problems & solutions. I know you did this to highlight the proposals coming from previous community discussions, but the design document is the place to merge old and new discussions into a single plan. A current problem is equally relevant, regardless of who reported it and how long ago.--Qgil (talk) 23:17, 6 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ✅. That's correct. The content of this section was merged. --monteirobrena (talk) 23:21, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

The video (that we don't have)
There are several references of a video showing how great our community is. I agree, such video would be great (and in fact I added it to my backlog not to forget about this idea). The fact is though that we don't have it, neither I expect us to have it any time soon. Therefore, it is better not to count on it.--Qgil (talk) 20:44, 7 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I think the video can be replaced by other media as a photo that pass the same idea. --monteirobrena (talk) 23:23, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Popular pages
In the relation to the missing questions, the document recommends to "Add "Popular Pages" or "Frequently Accessed/Requested Pages" box (preferably with automatic update)." I don't see how this relates to the questions, though. Popular pages can be popular (meaning that can score high in page visits) for many reasons unrelated to these questions. One of the detected problems of the current homepage is the proliferation of links. And let's not forget, we still have the sidebar. For all this, I believe we don't need "Popular pages", even less provided automatically.--Qgil (talk) 21:01, 7 January 2014 (UTC)


 * This idea appeared in Requests for comment and has been discussed without reaching a resolution. I think the new layout can have the necessary links and spread across the page without a box to keep them. --monteirobrena (talk) 16:32, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Showing statistics
In relation with the missing questions, the document suggests to "Show statistics about MediaWiki (preferably with automatic update)." Which statistics, though? Do we have references of websites that are showing off (reliable) statistics in their homepages? I mean, we could provide a couple of numbers, like "more than 3000 extensions", "about 700 contributors"... but is there any specific idea for more detailed stats, updated automatically?--Qgil (talk) 21:11, 7 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Under the point about transmitting feelings there is another mention to stats: "Show the amount of downloads and instances using MediaWiki, see for instance: Android and Joomla." These numbers are tricky: people get MediaWiki from different sources, many MediaWikis are private intranets... https://wikiapiary.com/ has some numbers we can trust, e.g. number of extensions. Still, I woul ask ourselves what number do we need to inject those feelings. I know that when I installed my first MediaWiki I cared very little about the number of instances out there. I knew there were "many" and my simple math was that "if it works for Wikipedia it must work for me".--Qgil (talk) 21:19, 7 January 2014 (UTC)


 * This is a good point. In fact the exploration of showcases can be more effective than statistics to awaken interest of new users. --monteirobrena (talk) 17:05, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

About bucketing developers
The document says "Bucketing people makes more difficult to find information " but then in the same point it actually recommends to "Split developers into "Core" and "Extensions"". I actually believe that the best approach is to have a single and prominent call to all developers in the homepage, channeling them to another page e.g. Developer hub. Next to this there should be another call to get involved (open to any contributors, not just developers), pointing to How to contribute.--Qgil (talk) 21:34, 7 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree it is very contradictory keep the two ideias. In my opinion, we could have one call to developers instead divide into two parts. I also think we should have a prominent call to contributors. --monteirobrena (talk) 17:25, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Link to live demo
I like the idea of offering a link to a MediaWiki live demo. However, where should this link point to? Unless I have missed it, we don't have a pure MediaWiki live demo, offering what a user gets after installing plain MediaWiki (like e.g. http://installatron.com/mediawiki/demo does). Even in that case, plain MediaWiki doesn't contain most of the interesting features nowadays (Echo, VisualEditor, Scribunto...) which make think that perhaps a(n additional) possibility would be to expose https://test2.wikipedia.org/ a bit more. Maybe has better ideas?--Qgil (talk) 21:54, 7 January 2014 (UTC)


 * It is important use the environment that has the most recent features and using the test of the Wikipedia could be very positive. . --monteirobrena (talk) 17:55, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

News & New opportunities
About "Merge boxes "News" and "New opportunities" to "News & Opportunities"", I agree that there is a problem with these boxes but I don't think merging them is the solution. They are different things. New opportunities is in fact synced with Project:Calendar and, if we want to show feelings and community, it probably should stay since it points to occasions to meet the community online or face to face.

News is more problematic, since it takes such a big portion of the homepage and it is basically unmaintained and neglected (mea culpa). We have Tech/News and we have https://blog.wikimedia.org/c/technology/, both Wikimedia-centric but (if you ask me) better than nothing. We could improve based on that. Oh, and we also have the MediaWiki accounts in Social media.--Qgil (talk) 22:07, 7 January 2014 (UTC)