Talk:Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements/Archive5

Feedback on ToC functionality
Hello,

I’m not sure how far you are in the development of the new table of content functionality, but I was looking at this prototype and noticed a potential problem. Here the ToC is on the side and that’s a good thing, but the ToC in the text have also been deleted and that’s not much a good thing. When there is a big infobox, the in-text ToC compensate partly or totally for it, hence the page arrangement take it into consideration for the position of the images. Now if you delete it, all the text will go up, along with the images, but the images can’t always follow, because the infobox, so the right-aligned images are going to pile under it, while the left-aligned will reduce the text to a very small column between them and the infobox. On fr:wp, infoboxes are very widely used, so deleting the in-text ToC is going to break the page layout of most articles (and rather probably upset the community). So I’d suggest that, whatever you do with the ToC, to not delete the in-text ToC until there is also a functionality to move the infobox outside the text too (that would be great by the way, as infoboxes always cause difficulties with page layout). --Runi Gerardsen (talk) 09:30, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I would like to add myself as having this same concern about images. At present, image placement in many articles was determined by this factor of the TOC being inline, sometimes offsetting the issues of long infoboxes and allowing the first image in the first section to be right-justified (like anyone with any experience in professional publishing, I really hate left-justified lead images as they break up the flow of the text by interposing themselves between heds and text. Similarly, I try to maintain alternation in the justification of images since that mirrors the sweep of our vision and makes text with images easier to read (but of course you don't do this when it creates other layout issues). When this is deployed, a lot of articles are going to suddenly have image placement issues at the top that didn't previously. And this will probably make a lot of people very angry. I can see the need for the sticky TOC but I think it would still be better as something that could be toggled there from its current position while reading depending on how the user prefers it in an individual article. Daniel Case (talk) 05:50, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
 * What if we kept both the inline/in-text ToC and the sticky/sidebar ToC, but only display the latter when the user's scrolled past the former? A user preference could be added that forces the latter to always (or never) be displayed. I agree that the situation with images is a PITFA, but I really don't want to give up the sticky ToC either… OmenBreeze (talk) 00:43, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but until I manually switched back to "Vector legacy (2010)", then again to "Vector (2022)", ToC section was absent completely (neither new-style nor old-style). Also maybe, like with the language switcher, there should be [temporary] notice about ToC having moved to the left where it was previously? _Vi (talk) 17:57, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

About Google Docs and Zoom
Thank you for the invitation I received for tomorrow's videcall since I was an interface admin and a developer! but sadly I cannot participate since I don't use Google Docs or Zoom for security reasons (partially related: ).

I don't know if it could be useful but maybe in the future you may consider to land the doc on the wiki itself, or using Etherpad when realtime is needed.

To drop Zoom, maybe I can propose Jitsi Meeting that is gratis and libre and supports streaming on social network to support large audience. (Also Wikimedia Meet deserves a try and some feedback). Valerio Bozzolan (talk) 15:38, 28 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Hello @Valerio Bozzolan. I understand your concerns and thank you for the language you use. I do appreciate that. As you may have realized, it isn't without a reason why we use these particular tools/platforms.
 * Google Docs are used by the Foundation as the default tool for making internal notes and docs. We might, for the purposes of the office hours, replace it with Etherpad. There's a problem with the translations, though. Asking translators to update just one word, and waiting until they've done that, could be troublesome. This is why I can only commit to replace this if we make more changes to the announcement. (By the way, the announcement is fully standardized and translated into 16 languages, some of which use declination or are not written in the Latin script.)
 * We need our office hours to be technically (platform-wise) predictable. Although Jitsi is open source and Zoom is not, the latter is more effective. It has been widely used for online meetings in the movement. It's been used by the WMF for office hours with the CEO, Maryana; it's been used by affiliates. There are hundreds of Wikimedians who at least once have participated in a Wikimedia meeting on Zoom. We know how to provide live translations there. Jitsi, on the other hand, is less popular, and we'd have to learn how to support live translations, including more trainings organized specifically for our meetings.
 * We may consider having office hours on IRC. Frankly, I have a feeling that since the migration from Freenode, IRC has been more and more marginalized, but we could give it a try.
 * I'm curious what other Wikimedians watching this page think. Add your comments! SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 22:15, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Just asking for an understanding that Google Form and Zoom are a bug, not a feature, to participate in a Wikimedia project. A bug that deserves a long-term fix. Valerio Bozzolan (talk) 15:57, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I appreciate these are standard across parts of the Foundation. And agree w/ Valerio this is a bug, not a feature. Perhaps it's time to revisit this across the org. :)  We should be using tools that can be constantly used and deployed by communities for events, workshops, office hours, talks without sending traffic through commercial servers.
 * Text: Google makes some very wiki-spirited tools (they did absorb JotSpot back in 2006) so it's stayed around for a while. But we simply must stop using it as a crutch that keeps us from using and being delighted by notetaking on our own platform. Our collaborative platform for drafting and discussing documents. Our versioned, searchable platform.
 * Video: I too have to use Zoom sometime, but I'm always surprised and a bit dismayed when a Wikimedia meeting uses it! Jitsi is stable, widely used + repackaged, easily modded and forked, and we host a lovely instance on the WM cloud. [We also regularly use BigBlueButton for larger audiences.] It makes it easy to name a persistent rooms, embed it it in other places or tools (see Jitsi-as-a-service + Brave Talk these days), &c. We should be thinking about how to better use video streams in our projects, and using this framework as we do so. Sj (talk) 12:54, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks @Sj and @Valerio Bozzolan.
 * First of all, I really hear what you're saying. Perhaps you're right, Google and Zoom may be bugs - it's definitely not up to me to decide. "Perhaps it's time to revisit this across the org. :)" - I'm grateful that you specifically used the words "across the org". That's way wider than just Olga and me (people who organize our office hours), or Community Relations ("technical liaisons" so to speak), or Movement Communications alone. If it's about the standard, then it needs a broad agreement.
 * @SJ, do Jitsi or any open-source alternatives provide the speech-to-text functionality and parallel voice tracks for live translators (interpreters)? I'm asking because each time we have a meeting, there are people who need the speech-to-text functionality . Unfortunately, we haven't been able to provide the live translation support yet. We're still working on it, and it seems we may have found a solution.
 * SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 15:55, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
 * SGrabarczuk:
 * 1. We should change the standard [though there seem to be many even within one org!], but I only mentioned that to suggest that none are set in stone. :) As this thread is about these particular discussions, I hope we can try a different standard for these sessions, or understand what prevents such a change.  If it is purely a matter of accessibility features, that would make a phabulous ticket even if it is not yet known who could set them up.
 * 2. Yes they do! Other collaborative orgs w/ similar issues of language equity use jitsi regularly. There are solutions or workarounds for both. [also, to the point of "supporting essential infrastructure for free knowledge", our engagement would certainly help make them better for all.]
 * speech to text: Google Voice integration seems to be there, and a number of open-source s2t services that are not quite comparable. You can see the range of Summer of Code projects + community submissions scratching their own itches in the jigasi repo.
 * remote simultaneous interpretation: the most recent solution (for a single language, letting you tune in or out of the raw audio and into a translator's audio channel) is use by May First (which we should work more closely with on choosing technology stacks, frankly) and is maintained here. There are improvements, and pushes to integrate into jitsi core, both of which could be facilitated by small technical bounties or large expressions of interest [like Wikimedia indicating this is a crucial feature for us]. Sj (talk) 02:37, 7 July 2022 (UTC)


 * @SGrabarczuk (WMF), I will not participate in any forum that is not public. Why the wmf foundation wants to share information via Zoom, a for-profit corporation which provides no guarantee of privacy, is anyone's guess. We have been using wiki-code for discussion since 2001, why this change?
 * I apologize if you find my message above irrespecutful, but this represents the views of many. Ottawahitech (talk) 18:26, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
 * @Ottawahitech, above, you can find explanations on why we (the Web team) are using Zoom now. Are you also asking why we have any voice online meetings in general? SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 15:57, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Wikistories
Will Vector 2022 be influenced by Wikistories? -- NGC 54  ( talk |  contribs ) 10:09, 6 June 2022 (UTC)


 * @NGC 54, what do you mean by influenced? SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 22:18, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
 * @SGrabarczuk (WMF): If Vector 2022 will be adapted for (compatible from a design perspective with) Wikistories. -- NGC 54  ( talk |  contribs ) 19:06, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
 * @NGC 54, definitely. All the projects that currently are being built are compatible with or neutral to Vector 2022. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 16:47, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Irish language Wikipedia and Vector 2022


Hi there. I'm w:ga:User:Alison - admin and bureaucrat on the Irish language Wikipedia. I'd be remiss in not providing feedback, I think, so here goes.


 * I see other folks pointing out the massive amount of whitespace / padding in the left side navbar which is squeezing out the actual article text on the right. On our wiki, it really seems significant. IMO, article is all, and we seem to be sacrificing actual content real-estate for ... what, exactly? Yes, it looks 'less cluttered', but there's actually less content - especially for those of us who both browse and edit on laptop screens.


 * On the top tab section (which is otherwise quite nice), you can see the Plé (Talk) and Léigh (Read) are scrunched together with no separation. I18n bug, maybe?


 * The main image and title have lost their localization and now show "Wikipedia" instead of "Vicipéid" - this could just be an image localization / config issue. Could someone point me in the right direction, maybe? I did the original, later-font localization for our wiki, some years back, so happy to dip in and fix :)

Le gach dea-ghuí (best regards),

-- Allie Alis o n  ❤ 16:17, 22 June 2022 (UTC)


 * multilingual Wikipedians: during redesigh include current non-english desighs for evaluation, including spanish, french and german. They have good ideas and bad ideas... 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 01:10, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * The "PléLéigh" issue looks like it's T309223, a known issue. Until it is fixed in MediaWiki, try updating your browser(s) – the issue occurs if your browser doesn't support a certain relatively new feature. Rummskartoffel (talk) 21:59, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Hey there! Regarding logos https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T244486 is what you are looking for - basically every logo needs to be recreated. You can request one on that ticket to be prioritized higher or find information about creating new ones.
 * Regarding sidebar whitespace I am not sure I understand. The extra padding is for the table of contents underneath the sidebar. You say it's squeezing article text on the right but in your screenshots the Vector 2022 screenshot shows more of the article text. I can see the description section heading for example.
 * I can confirm the PléLéigh issue is a bug and will hopefully be fixed soon.
 * Hope this is helpful. Jdlrobson (talk) 01:02, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

wordmark no longer appears after upgrading to MediaWiki 1.38.1, style bugs
After upgrading to MediaWiki 1.38.1 from 1.36.1, the wordmark no longer appears next to the icon in the upper left. If the window is wide enough, the 150px space for the wordmark is reserved but is empty. When you make the window wider past a certain width, the coloring behind the sidebar also vanishes. This happens with Vector 2010 in both legacy and non-legacy mode and in Vector 2022. The wordmark image is an svg that has not moved and still has correct permissions Queernix1028 (talk) 19:43, 22 June 2022 (UTC)


 * What is the value of wgLogos in your LocalSettings.php? Jdlrobson (talk) 14:22, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

$wgLogos = [ 'icon' => "$wgScriptPath/images/arcc/logo.svg", '1x' => "$wgScriptPath/images/arcc/logo.png", 'wordmark' => [ 'src' => "$wgScriptPath/images/arcc/wordmark.png", '1x' => "$wgScriptPath/images/arcc/wordmark.svg", 'width' => 150, ], ];
 * It previously worked with wordmark src set to the svg file, but now neither that configuration nor the one above work. Queernix1028 (talk) 14:32, 29 June 2022 (UTC)


 * I believe you need to set a height on the wordmark. Jdlrobson (talk) 00:55, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Language links on Wikidata are right at the bottom of the page
I've enabled the new theme (Vector 2022) globally on all wikis. I generally like the new interface. However when I am on wikidata, previously the interlanguage links were on the right. (Where an infobox usually goes on a wikipedia page) Now they are right at the bottom of the page! Some wikidata pages are massive, and having to scroll all the way down to the bottom of the screen to do the thing I do most frequently on wikidata (add new language links) is a real pain. Please can you move the language links on wikidata back to the top (top right) of the page? - Rooiratel (talk) 14:25, 23 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Hello @Rooiratel. Thanks for your opinion. Are you talking about the desktop view? What's the resolution of your screen? I've tried to narrow my window down and change its width, and it seems that the width thresholds when the interwiki links go from the bottom to the right are the same. Is there any setting you use that may make your experience different? SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 23:50, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi this is for the desktop view. I am seeing this behaviour on my 1080p laptop screen and my 1440p desktop screen. I haven't used the mobile view, so can't comment on that. - Rooiratel (talk) 06:32, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Infobox element alignment is mangled in mobile view
Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but when I click on "Mobile view" with Vector 2022, many of the infobox elements are misaligned. Many elements that should be centered are left-aligned, and many elements that should be left-aligned are centered. At least that's what it looks like for me in Chrome for Mac OS at this page. Jonesey95 (talk) 02:57, 24 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Wow, that looks odd. Thanks @Jonesey95 for reporting this. Right now, I only have one question - why do you use the mobile view and Vector 2022 mixed together? Minerva is dedicated for mobile, and Vector 2022 is dedicated for desktop. Having these two at the same time is bold and original :) SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 23:08, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I was just doing some very beginner-level QA testing. Editors do all sorts of ridiculous things, so I try to do some QA testing by doing ridiculous things. If you want editors to use Vector 2022 for desktop-only and Minerva for mobile-only, then make the "Mobile view"/"Desktop view" link at the bottom of the screen switch between the skins. Meanwhile, I'll be over here in legacy Vector where I can fill my browser window with content.... Jonesey95 (talk) 01:15, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Using the mobile domain with the Vector skin invokes a special mode with lots of odd behaviour. It's not part of this project but will hopefully get fixed some day. Jdlrobson (talk) 02:30, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

"Related articles" appear to be missing
I do not see the "Related articles" section at the bottom of the mobile view. I don't really care, but since the "Principles" section of this page says "We do not remove any functionality", I thought I'd mention it. It makes me wonder what other functionality has been removed, and whether this principle is really being followed in a systematic way. Jonesey95 (talk) 03:02, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

RelatedArticles appears to be working fine to me. I see it on Minerva. What do you mean by "at the bottom of mobile view"? The scope of this project is the desktop site so no changes to the mobile domain have been made.

RelatedArticles does not show on the skins of certain websites and has not shown on Vector or Vector 2022 unless the community has explicitly requested. See T144812, T181242 and T278611 for example. Jdlrobson (talk) 14:59, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I think this is my mistake. I was comparing this (default mobile view on en.WP) with this (Vector 2022 mobile view) and assuming that the default mobile view used some version of the Vector skin, but I think that is not correct. Jonesey95 (talk) 16:38, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Ah okay. This mode is only accessible by a special URL and is not being worked on as part of this project. Thanks for taking the time to explain! Jdlrobson (talk) 02:28, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Please evaluate CJK characters' font size in Vector 2022
For your infomation, the Chinese Wikipedia already has a gadget that increases the font size for a better Chinese reading experience. Japanese and classical Chinese Wikipedia also have such kinds of gadgets. Diskdance (talk) 08:19, 25 June 2022 (UTC)


 * It would be nice if we could integrate these gadgets into new Vector skin directly. This would benefit other CJK and multilingual wikis. Diskdance (talk) 08:20, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks @Diskdance! @AHollender (WMF) FYI :) SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 23:03, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

I think we should create a phabricator ticket for this one. Jdlrobson (talk) 02:29, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Merge notification block in the header: notifications and alerts
For me, it has always been a strange decision that notifications were divided into two unrelated blocks and icons with incomprehensible categorization. I forgot about it, but now I'm paying attention again.

Given that we removed the text from all menus, there are now a lot of icons at the top that do not understand what they do. Different blocks of notifications do not help this at all. Maybe it's time to put them in one menu and break it there already? Filters, tabs, whatever :) But at least you won't get confused in the icons.

I personally still (6 years!) do not know what their fundamental difference is. I asked my friends and they don't know either. Iniquity (talk) 17:29, 27 June 2022 (UTC)


 * . The notices are the notifications that are not very important/urgent, unlike the alerts. Merging them would make me unable to found out at a glance if I have any important/urgent notification, and would also overload the notification box, as I receive many notifications. -- NGC 54  ( talk |  contribs ) 22:19, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * It seems to me that it is possible to do this with filters and colored marker icons. Or a separate setting for users who really need it. Iniquity (talk) 09:47, 28 June 2022 (UTC)


 * . I agree that the distinction could be clearer, but don't necessarily agree that there should be only one button. Presently, when both are empty the only difference between them is the header text and icon. Both share the exact same two buttons, which link to the same destinations. The text in the box doesn't even distinguish, reading "There are no notifications" instead of "There are no alerts". There isn't even a "help" or "about" link unique to each of them to explain the difference or what gets sent where. If you follow the links to the special page or preferences, it's still not clear which notifications are sent where.


 * Based on the names, I would've assumed the difference would be that alerts are specifically for subscriptions to article alerts, whereas notifications would be for everything else. It makes sense to split them, since alerts would be activity that's less personal to the receiver. "Alerts" would be like a daily newspaper, but "notifications" are more like personal mail. Except this isn't how the system actually functions; messages to the receiver's talk page are placed under "Alerts" rather "Notices", for example.


 * I understand that it may be helpful to filter urgent notifications from less urgent ones, but what counts as urgent or important? Shouldn't that be decided by the user's preferences? It would make more sense to have something like tabs, as Iniquity suggested, to filter types of notifications; this would let that user decide what is important. Scyrme (talk) 22:33, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Table of contents: Bold format for active section
I really appreciate the new skin and layout. In the beta, the active/current section of the article was formatted bold in the table of contents on the left side. But in the live version, it's regular and black. I find it really, really hard to differentiate between the normal blue titles and the active title, because the only difference is the black vs. blue color. Could you please make the active titles bold again? Thank you! Lhennen (talk) 21:11, 29 June 2022 (UTC)


 * +1 Bold and black would be best imo. L.xschlag (talk) 11:43, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @Lhennen, @L.xschlag - thank you for your feedback! Not sure if you've seen, but we are  currently in the middle of testing some prototypes related to this question.  You're welcome to give us more detailed feedback on the prototype page.  One of the things we're testing on these is the way links should appear within the table of contents (see https://di-visual-design-toc-active.web.app/Otter) for an example.  Currently, our feedback is showing us that people are leaning towards option 2: bold and black so we will most likely be continuing with that option and making the titles bold.   OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 10:08, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Jawiki has NOT reached consensus on implementing Vector 2022 yet
Jawiki has NOT reached consensus on implementing Vector 2022 yet. Why was it implemented without our consent? AppleRingo777 (talk) 22:01, 29 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi @AppleRingo777 - we apologize for the confusion that the deployment process has caused and the lack of clarity from our side.  We are currently working on reading back through our previous communications and clarifying the process and what happened with individual members of the community.  We will to get back to the community with more detailed thoughts and a process for next steps by tomorrow July 1st.   OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 12:04, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Sidebar
Hello! I asked a question at the meeting, but I would like to duplicate it here. Will it be possible to control the location of blocks (right or left) through MediaWiki:Sidebar? Iniquity (talk) 15:34, 30 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Hey! We are still thinking through how this would work. Input valued in T306519 ! Jdlrobson (talk) 14:27, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks! :) Iniquity (talk) 16:16, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Keep the TOC under the main menu as long as possible (Vector 2022)
When the window gets narrower the TOC is moved into a "Hamburger button". But the main menu stays where it is until the window get's quite a bit more narrower. I think as long as the main menu fits, the TOC should stay at its original place. Especially since the TOC behind the "Hamburger button" is quite easy to miss. L.xschlag (talk) 11:30, 1 July 2022 (UTC)


 * This was a bug. I believe it should be fixed by the end of the week. Jdlrobson (talk) 14:28, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

"Move" is the only in the "More" drop down menu (Vector 2022)
I think it's quite odd that the "More" drop down menu most of the time contains only "move". Is it on purpose to make it harder to find for the average user? L.xschlag (talk) 11:35, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
 * , I have two items - the other is an add-on via preferences/gadgets. Unfortunately, I cannot use drop-down menues easily, so getting there in V-2022 is quite a nuisance. Retired electrician (talk) 21:31, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Isn't the behaviour the same here on the other skins?
 * I agree it's not great having one item in a menu, but I think this case is quite rare since on most wikis move privilege is added along with page protection and deletion. There is a trade off here between the complexity of maintaining multiple variants of the skin in different circumstances and what looks best. Here we could add special treatment for the one item menu but we'd need to add additional code complexity and tests to cover it. Hope this insight is helpful. Jdlrobson (talk) 14:32, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Language mix in the interface
Pardon me if this had already been discussed here. It seems that the language of the interface (as set in preferences) mixes up with local-language elements where it shouldn't.
 * 1) My preferences are always "interface=en", and thus I always see "Contents Beginning" in the TOC section - be it Chinese, Russian or Spanish wiki.
 * 2) The pink box above TOC in ru-wiki says "On this Википедия[sic!] the language links are at the top of the page across from the article title. Go to top." In zh-wiki, however, the message is correctly "On this Wikipedia the language links ..." Retired electrician (talk) 21:23, 3 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Thank you @Retired electrician for reporting this. That's odd. 🤔 The source code is:  On this the language links ... - so apparently, something about  isn't working here. But I don't know what yet. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 16:20, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Where are the categories?
Hi this is my first time looking at the prototype, so apologies if this question has been answered elsewhere - where are the categories? MassiveEartha (talk) 04:15, 5 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Hello @MassiveEartha. I'm sorry that you felt confused. We don't touch elements such as categories. These prototypes were only created for editors to help us decide on the visual design matters. If the categories aren't displayed in any of the prototypes, then it's definitely unintentional and also irrelevant to what we do. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 16:02, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

開発者集団は日本語版を軽視していると思われるThe group of developers seems to downplay the Japanese version
日本語版の利用者の一人としては、開発者の集団は日本語版を軽視していると考える. 一つの証拠として開発者からの意見を求めるメッセージが英語だけで書かれていたことを挙げておく. 機械翻訳があるのだから英語と共に日本語を添えることは簡単なことのはずである. それすらせずにVectorからVector2022への変更を強行したことは、一種の文化帝国主義であると評さざるを得ない. As one of the users of the Japanese version, I think that the group of developers disregards the Japanese version. One proof is that the message for the developer's opinion was written in English only. Since there is machine translation, it should be easy to add Japanese along with English. It must be said that forcing the change from Vector to Vector 2022 without doing so is a kind of cultural imperialism.--27.85.205.84 07:17, 5 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Hello 27.85.205.84. Do you maybe know good open-source machine translators working for Japanese and English? I've noticed that Google Translate doesn't work for these languages well. Sometimes it changes words, meanings, and the tone of entire sentences completely. I could write in Polish, my first language, but I'm sure that would be even more difficult. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 16:15, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Listed coordinates overlapping with header weirdly
for an example of this, see wp's london article (screenshot) LarstonMarston (talk) 20:00, 5 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Thank you @LarstonMarston. In this case, we need to fix the bug together with the communities - some code should be changed by editors on each wiki with this bug separately. We can help (and we're working on it). SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 16:11, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
 * thanks, good to hear LarstonMarston (talk) 20:06, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Replace the "new section" tab text with "+" gadget not working.
On the English Wikipedia upon switching to Modern Vector the aforementioned gadget ceases to function as intended.

Nathanielcwm (talk) 13:14, 6 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Looks like the gadget is setup to only work on Vector and Monobook. I have updated it to also apply to Vector 2022 skin (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki%3AGadget-addsection-plus.js&type=revision&diff=1096783301&oldid=1047498910) Jdlrobson (talk) 15:59, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

July
@SGrabarczuk (WMF): Does Vector 2022 will be deployed (as default) at all Wikimedia wikis until the end of July, as it is written here? I am asking this because I see that there is still some work to do and the deadline written there changed several times. -- NGC 54  ( talk |  contribs ) 21:56, 6 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Hello @NGC 54, thanks for this question. This information is already outdated. It will not be deployed in July. We hope to send an update to the village pumps next week. We're working on the announcement right now. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 16:01, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Merge [ca-view] and [ca-nstab-main] in the article toolbar
Currently, in the article toolbar, we have two links (Read and Article) that lead to the same location. One of them is located in the left and the other one is located in the right navigation. This can be confusing to readers, and also adds unnecessary weight to the toolbar. Current look.

It would be good if we could merge these two tabs into one. Ideally, the best solution, in my opinion, would be to merge the right and left navigation and center the items, like this. Please tell me what you think about this. Thank you! — Aca (talk) 11:18, 9 July 2022 (UTC)


 * . Now, the tabs are clear. You have 2 pages: the article and the talk page. You can select 1 action at a time for each of them: reading, visual editing, source editing, and viewing the history. Form the proposed design, you can understand that the tabs led to different types of pages. The watch is something not related to the article? And if now you are on article tabs, if you would press on the editing source tab, you would arrive on a page not related to the article (this is a possible confusion)? And so on. "This can be confusing to readers," - how so? Are there any data? And if there are, are there any data that the proposed design is better? P.S. I also dislike the proposed design, due to visual reasons. -- NGC 54  ( talk |  contribs ) 19:00, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

"Beginning" is confusing
More feedback: when I was at Gotcha journalism just now, I became confused because there appeared to be a section titled "beginning", which I assumed covered the early history of the term. It took me a minute to figure out that that wasn't referring to a section but rather a way to scroll to the top of the page. Many other articles are going to have a similar problem, since we often begin with history sections that might reasonably be titled "Beginning" for early history. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 22:42, 27 April 2022 (UTC)


 * @Sdkb - good catch! This is something we discussed quite a bit internally in order to finally settle on beginning, although I agree that it's still imperfect. Previously we were using "introduction".  The issue there was that many articles have "introduction" as the name of their first section, causing duplication.  Other options we were considering were location-based (back to top, beginning of page, etc).  We are welcome to ideas on how to make this clearer.   OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 09:05, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
 * The name used by wikipedians? Lead section in English, résumé introductif in French, etc (Q10966628) Pyb (talk) 11:07, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
 * On Translatewiki.net I found "Début" for fr.wiki and "Inizio" for it.wiki (on it.wiki we use also "Incipit" or "Introduzione", see T306990). Patafisik (talk) 15:09, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
 * @OVasileva (WMF), did you consider different design approaches in addition to different names? If the word had been accompanied by something like Font Awesome 5 solid caret-up.svg, it might have been a lot clearer. I also think there's some benefit to matching the terminology we already use as editors ("lead section" or "introduction"), since that makes it easier for newcomers. The Wikipedia articles that currently have "Introduction" as their first named section should not—they should be tagged with w:Template:Overview section. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 20:16, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Bumping @OVasileva (WMF). &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 17:16, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Just leaving a note here that we're still watching this conversation and considering different options, but haven't made a decision yet.  OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 13:58, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I think using the article title would make the most sense, as the title is the uppermost heading in the article. That way the header that the reader arrives at always matches the one they've clicked on. (I'm sure "Beginning" is better than "Introduction," but it's not unheard of as a section title either: e.g. Creolization, Ashikaga shogunate, History of Carthage. Is there any way to determine how often it's used?) Arms &#38; Hearts (talk) 19:35, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

I think "Top" would be less confusing and generally make more sense as that seems to be the common English term for the top of the page. 132.170.199.112 19:32, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Actions menu overflows when main menu is active (Vector 2022)
When the main menu is active (meaning visible) and the window is quite narrow the actions menu (Read, Edit source, Add topic, View history) doesn't get condensed in the "More" drop down menu, resulting in a very ugly overflow. L.xschlag (talk) 11:41, 1 July 2022 (UTC)


 * @L.xschlag - thank you for your feedback! This should now be fixed, let us know if you continue seeing issues. OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 13:34, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Audio player issues (Vector 2022)
When pressing play from a wikipedia article (e.g. first clip in Aftermath_(Rolling_Stones_album)), the page changes text colour from black to pale grey. Almost unreadable. This dead time varies from a few seconds to many minutes, probably caused by unsteady connection on my side. I tried opening 2-3-4... windows with the same article, and some windows seem to be stuck indefinitely while others play with minimal (but still annoying) delay. If I press play directly from file description page ( w:en:File:Under_My_Thumb.ogg), it always plays instantly and the text always stays black. Win 10 Home / Chrome 102.0.5005.115 (64-bit) Retired electrician (talk) 19:29, 3 July 2022 (UTC)


 * I've flagged this bug to the developers of Extension:TimedMediaHandler. This is not related to this project. I'll let you know if I hear anything back. Thanks for reporting! Jdlrobson (talk) 16:43, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Language switching
Hi, I really appreciate the suggestion of translations within the language button, thank you! 37.103.14.65 09:06, 7 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Appreciation also goes to the Wikimedia Language engineering team, because they have made this particular change. We have "only" provided the language button :) SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 02:01, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Vector (2022)のウィキペディア日本語版への導入について About the introduction of Vector (2022) to the Japanese version of Wikipedia
「ja:Wikipedia:井戸端/subj/デスクトップ版外装（スキン）改善バージョンの実装について」での案内によると7月14日までこのページでコメントを受け付けるとのことなので意見を書く. --匿竜類 (talk) 02:25, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
 * 開発者は開発すること自体に喜びを感じるべきであり、日本語版で行ったように強引に導入して「見えるところ」に成果が表れることに喜びを感じるべきでない.
 * 開発者は裏方として、開発に専念するべきであり、それを使うかどうかは「利用者」の判断にゆだねるべきである.
 * スキンはインフラストラクチャーである. 技術者が陥りがちな間違いだが「新しければよい」というものではない.
 * 現在のVector (2022)は完成品とは言えずベータテストの段階でしかない. この段階で全面導入を進めようとするのは技術者の姿勢として適切でない. ベータテストは希望者を募って行うべきである.
 * Vector (2022)をデフォルトのスキンとすることについて、本当に開発者チームに権限が与えられているのか. 証拠があるなら、リンクをつけて示してほしい.
 * 今回の経緯を見ると「読者」に対する観点が脱落している. 「読者」のいない記事に何の意味があるのだろうか.
 * ja: Wikipedia: Idobata / subj / Desktop version According to the guidance on implementing the improved exterior (skin) version, comments will be accepted on this page until July 14, so I will write my opinion.


 * Developers should be delighted with the development itself, and should not be delighted with the "visible" results of the forcible introduction as was done in the Japanese version.
 * Developers should concentrate on development behind the scenes and leave it to the "user" to decide whether or not to use it.
 * Skins are infrastructure. It's a mistake that engineers tend to make, but it's not "just new."
 * The current Vector (2022) is not a finished product, it is only in the beta test stage. It is not appropriate as an engineer's attitude to proceed with full-scale introduction at this stage. Beta testing should be done by recruiting applicants.
 * Is the developer team really empowered to make Vector (2022) the default skin? If you have proof, please link to it.
 * Looking at the history of this time, the viewpoint for "readers" is missing. What does an article without a "reader" mean? 匿竜類 (talk) 02:25, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi @匿竜類 - Thank you for your feedback and for the bug reports below. We are currently in the process of taking the Vector (2022) skin out of beta testing/pilot mode and into the stage where we scale the skin, with the hopes of making it the default on all the wikis.  Over the course of the next month, we will be hosting conversations with the largest Wikipedias and getting their feedback on the skin, similar to our conversations with Japanese Wikipedia right now.  Even when default, logged-in users will still be able to chose whether they want to use the skin or not.  If they decide not to use it, they can turn it off at any moment in their user preferences.
 * In terms of readers, for every change we have made when building the skin, we have tested both quantitatively and qualitatively with readers and well as editors. To access more detail on the research and testing we have done, please go to the Features page and select the feature you are interested in learning about.  From there, you can read the sections named Quantitative research or Qualitative research to see the testing we have done. In addition, we have also done more open-ended testing with readers to identify the issues with the skin starting in 2020 until now. Please see the  Hureo User Research Report with Readers and Editors, the Wikimania Stockholm research report, the Wikimedia Desktop Usage and Behavior Data Analysis, or the Sticky Header and Table of Contents User Testing reports for some examples of the studies we have done with readers (which have translations in Japanese), what we have learned, and how we used those learnings to create the new skin. OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 10:00, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Vector (2022)の不具合の報告 Report a bug in Vector (2022)
日本語版でVector (2022)を使うと、左側に「このWikipediaでは言語間リンクがページの先頭にある記事タイトルの向かい側に設置されています. ページの先頭をご覧ください. 」と表示されるのだが、実際には「記事タイトル」は「ページの先頭」ではなくこのメッセージの下に表示される. 以前は、このようなことがなかったように思うので一時的なものかもしれないが、症状が出ていることを確認してほしい. When I use Vector (2022) in the Japanese version, it says "In this Wikipedia, the interlingual link is located opposite the article title at the top of the page. Please see the top of the page." However, in reality, the "article title" is displayed below this message instead of "at the top of the page". I don't think this happened before, so it may be temporary, but please make sure that you have symptoms.--匿竜類 (talk) 02:42, 8 July 2022 (UTC)


 * 上記不具合を報告してから、1日経過していますが、応答がありません. ja:Wikipedia:表示改善依頼によると、どうやらこの種の不具合はファブリケータで処理することになっているようですが、そちらの方への連絡はしていただけたのでしょうか. とりあえず担当者の応答を求めます. One day has passed since I reported the above problem, but there is no response. ja: Wikipedia: Display improvement request #Vector (2022) In the skin, the badge and the map tag are displayed overlapping. According to #, it seems that this kind of defect is to be handled by the fabricator. Could you contact that person? For the time being, ask for the response of the person in charge.--匿竜類 (talk) 03:05, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Hello! The coordinates issue is known but the language one wasn't. Thank you for bringing it to our attention.
 * I will reply with more details next week. Have a great weekend and thank you for the bug reports. Jdlrobson (talk) 18:27, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
 * These are tracked in T303267 and T281974. Thanks for the report! Jdlrobson (talk) 16:39, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Big blank space when on a big zoom
Unlike the old layout that adjust depending of the size of zoom, the new format seems to follow a single size that, when zoomed in, creates a big blank space like if the page was still loading

It needs be fixed so the wiki pages can be better for people that have vison issues

- User:Meganinja202 | ¿ 10:17:00 11 July 2022 (UTC) Meganinja202 (talk) 10:17, 11 July 2022 (UTC)


 * User:Meganinja202 are you taking about Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements/Features/Limiting_content_width or reporting a bug? If the latter, what browser and device are you using? Jdlrobson (talk) 16:34, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
 * i think should be a bug since its a thing that happens from top to bottom of the page and not from the sides, i am use Chromium Based MS Edge Meganinja202 (talk) 17:02, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Where is the TOC?
People here are complaining about it. I don't even get one! Betaneptune (talk) 17:38, 25 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Hello @Betaneptune. Do you still have this problem? SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 17:52, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi ! I have the same problem on the French version of Wikipedia. The TOC just disappeared. The problem appears in Firefox desktop (last version 101.0.1), even in "troubleshoot" mode with all my add-ons deactivated. However, the problem does not appear in Chrome. This is extremely confusing. I reported it on some discussion page on the french version of WP, but I also mention it here, as I'm not sure at all where to report the problem for it to be taken into account. 85.169.195.108 17:56, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
 * The TOC is now on the left side, but after other menu lists. It should probably come first. But to keep things accessible, the (hidden) "jump to main menu" link should be kept as first element of course. Psychoslave (talk) 15:00, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The TOC really should come first. The #mw-navigation menu (which currently appears first) is comprised of mostly ancillary links unrelated to the page's content, many of which are rarely used (e.g., "Download as PDF", "Create a book", "Permanent link", etc). OmenBreeze (talk) 00:17, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
 * It has been tracked here T312022.--37.103.14.65 09:03, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Suggestions:
 * If the TOC will not come first, the other menu lists on the left side should become hidden (collapsed) when there is a TOC below them, so that the TOC is always visible.
 * The TOC should always be shown in its entirety, and not displayed as a box that you have to scroll through.
 * Förbätterlig (talk) 14:03, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

非常に見にくい
日本語で失礼します. 本日ごろから日本語版ウィキペディアのスキンに変更があったようですが、 などの変更のせいで、余計見づらくなったような気がします. 可能であれば改善するか、もしくは変更前のスキンに戻して欲しいです. イカしたイカ (talk) 08:38, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) 文字の大きさをブラウザ側から変更できない(Safari使用).
 * 2) そもそも標準の文字サイズが大きすぎる.
 * 3) 目次が項目名の横に位置が変わったせいでアクセスが煩雑になった.
 * 4) Infoボックスが大きすぎる


 * 感謝します、@イカしたイカさん.
 * First of all, you don't need to apologize for writing in Japanese. We welcome comments in any language.
 * Would you like just to change the default font size? Or would you be able to zoom in and out, and see the font size adjust?
 * Do you think making the text line wider and keeping the default font size would fix the problem?
 * Why do you think access is more complicated now? Our motivation was to reposition the table of context to make it more accessible. What do you think is not working?
 * Do you think the problem is related to the default font size?
 * まず第一に、あなたは日本語で書いたことを謝罪する必要はありません. どんな言語でもコメントを歓迎します.
 * デフォルトのフォントサイズを変更しますか？ または、ズームインおよびズームアウトして、フォントサイズが調整されるのを確認できますか？
 * テキスト行を広くし、デフォルトのフォントサイズを維持することで、問題が解決すると思いますか？
 * なぜ今、アクセスがより複雑になっていると思いますか？ 私たちの動機は、コンテキストのテーブルを再配置して、よりアクセスしやすくすることでした. 何が機能していないと思いますか？
 * 問題はデフォルトのフォントサイズに関連していると思いますか？
 * SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 02:18, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Language box recommendation
A minor suggestion: why not insert the language box on the title header so I don't have to go all up to the top of the page to change language versions. So yeah, thanks! PeaceSeekers (talk) 11:00, 11 July 2022 (UTC)


 * ya, they should had kept the language bar on the side of page instead of the top, leaving the language option on top only on mobile/touch machines Meganinja202 (talk) 17:03, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @PeaceSeekers - do you use the site while logged-in? If so, you can access the language switching button from the persistent ("sticky") header at the top of the page while you're scrolling. We are also in discussion of bringing this functionality to all logged-in users as well.   OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 08:15, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I did log in, but I can't see it though ... what I have is only, from the left: the search button, article title, discussion page, edit history, watchlist and my profile stuff (for lack of better words). So that's that. PeaceSeekers (talk) 08:43, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

What I still would love to see different solutions to
I'm very much looking forward to not having the text fill an entire wide screen. This will make Wikipedia far easier to read on big screens. Thanks! A few things that still don't work for me:

Table of contents

If I haven't collapsed the left menu, the ToC is not visible when I start reading the article. This makes it more difficult to get an overview.

It's also generally more difficult to get an overview of the article content, as I need to go to the ToC in the sidebar and scroll down to see everything on big pages (like a Village Pump). This both makes it more difficult for me to conceptualize what's on the page – as I've tested this, I've realised I find it challenging to get a grasp of a page if I can't see the various topics at the same time – and adds more work, as I have to move the mouse pointer to the ToC to be able to scroll. I would have much preferred if it used more of the space available to get around this.

My contributions

My own user contributions is something I use all the time – it's my way of getting back to what I was doing before. Making it less accessible in the top menu is wrench thrown into my workflow.

Language links

This is my main issue. I use other languages all the time. As a reader, I glance at them to conceptualise the topic – which languages have written about this subject? This hints at things that aren't available in the content itself. As an editor, I check out other languages to see what sources they have and so on. Having to click to even see if there are languages I can read is an extra step that both requires more work, but also makes it less inviting, as the opportunity doesn't stare me in the face. This is so central to my workflow that it might in itself be reason to keep using Vector 2010, but that's certainly not my preferred solution. Julle (talk) 10:13, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

feedback
asbra med maxbredd! coolt att wikipedia tar steget in i 2010-talet och blir läsbart på stor skärm.

språklänkarna blir mycket sämre. man borde kunna se språken direkt och klicka på dem, det är en sak man använder hela tiden.

jag förstår inte varför ni har bytt ut texten i användarmenyn mot symboler? det var tydligare med text. nu måste man gissa vad de betyder och många kommer aldrig lista ut det.

man borde inte behöva skrolla INNE I innehållsförteckningen för att se hela. sjukt störande att behöva gå till den och skrolla I DEN för att se vad som finns på sidan. 81.92.27.129 18:12, 12 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the feedback!
 * (google translation)
 * max width: cool that wikipedia takes the step into the 2010s and becomes readable on the big screen.
 * language links: you should be able to see the languages ​​directly and click on them, it is one thing you use all the time.
 * Icons: I do not understand why you have replaced the text in the user menu with symbols? it was clearer with text. now you have to guess what they mean and many will never figure it out.
 * Table of contents: you should not have to scroll INSIDE the table of contents to see the whole thing. Very annoying to have to go to it and scroll IN IT to see what's on the page. Jdlrobson (talk) 19:00, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
 * ("Sjukt störande", which the machine translation rendered as "ill disturbing", means "very annoying".) Julle (talk) 00:15, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Vector 2022を強要する行為は、開発者が読者を軽視していることの証拠である The act of forcing Vector 2022 is evidence that developers are downplaying their readers.
開発者（の集団）はアカウントユーザーなら自分で好きなスキンを使えるのだから、あまり出来がよいとは言えないVector 2022を強要してっもかまわないと考えているようである. しかし、元々Vector 2022は読者として快適に使えることを考慮していない. 開発者（の集団）は読者がいなければいくら記事を作っても意味がないということを忘れているのだろうか. It seems that developers (a group of people) are willing to force Vector 2022, which is not very good, because account users can use their favorite skins. However, originally Vector 2022 did not consider it to be comfortable to use as a reader. Do developers (groups) forget that it doesn't make sense to write an article without a reader?--27.85.205.84 07:29, 5 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Hello! As I can see, the translation was done by Google Translate. It's not good. I've used DeepL and this message is very different in English. Why do you think Vector 2022 was not originally designed to be comfortable to use as a reader? I would like to understand what made you think so.
 * こんにちは！ ご覧のとおり、翻訳はGoogle翻訳によって行われました. 良くない.  私はDeepLを使用しましたが、このメッセージは英語では大きく異なります.  なぜVector2022は、もともとリーダーとして快適に使用できるように設計されていなかったと思いますか？ どうしてそう思ったのか理解したい.  SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 02:06, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
 * SGrabarczuk (WMF)-san, your great DeepL-ed message causes a deletion discussion due to copyright violation. I wish a good Foundation staff would deeply understand the copyright policy in Wikipedia and recognize that copypasting from machine translation could violate the copyright that was attributed to that translation service.
 * So, while I'm not the original poster of this section, let me answer the question:
 * > Why do you think Vector 2022 was not originally designed to be comfortable to use as a reader?
 * If you think the only problem is new Vector 2022 design itself, I must say you are missing an important point: how you all introduced the new skin. All of the changes has never been announced in jawiki before being applied (and unfortunately, after that, until today). Many of the editors, the readers, the users were surprised at the new design all of the sudden, and not a few of them regarded it as a big bug or something.
 * You may wonder, "we let you know this in advance, via a member of your community." That's true, partially. AppleRingo777-san took your messages and passed them to us per your instruction. I heard that you (or someone in Foundation) asked to post the message in WP:NEWS. How did you determine that WP:NEWS, generally where announcements only for the editors are posted, was enough to communicate this important news that obviously affected the entirety of community members including the readers? Will you also assign the responsibility on this to AppleRingo777-san, a good community member? I cannot help but want the Foundation to realize that you all destroyed our trust. --2400:4052:3420:4500:444C:45BF:13AC:59E2 14:40, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Default to Collapsed Menu Exposed TOC
I was trying to figure out why I didn't like the new TOC, and then it hit me that the main reason was that it is hidden by the side menu when you first visit a page (I very rarely login to Wikipedia, and I'm thinking that's the norm for most visitors). Then I was thinking that I almost never use the main navigation links, they just aren't part of my normal use case of visiting Wikipedia (it is to learn a specific thing that I don't currently know enough about). I was going to post to make it possible to hide the main nav, but then realized that you already built it, but the default is for it to show. My hypothesis is that the bulk of users don't look or click on any of the menu items, and that the menu should be hidden by default and the TOC exposed above the fold. 195.134.163.110 10:34, 6 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Yes, TOC should be exposed above the article not on the right. In fact in desktop view if I click PC version it does not open stuff on the left. 2A00:1370:8184:2478:A928:87EF:D073:FEEA 16:22, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your feedback! We are planning on implementing this change within the next couple of weeks. Progress can be tracked in the phabricator ticket linked above.   OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 10:04, 11 July 2022 (UTC)


 * I would like you to give logged-in users the right to choose that as well. If you knew about these plans, don't you think that was a little premature to set Vector (2022) as the default in JAWP ? If you make changes right after you start it in JAWP, Japanese users will be confused. --呉野 (talk) 13:21, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

incorrect translation Vector 2022（jpwiki）
The information text on where to switch languages is partially translated incorrectly. I think, "このWikipediaでは言語間リンクがページの先頭にある記事タイトルの向かい側に設置されています. " is a slightly mistaken translation. This may mean that the language switch is outside the display.

You probably meant to write that, "他言語版へのリンクは、ページ先頭の記事タイトルの右側にあります. ". But I would rather you don't adopt this with no check. 呉野 (talk) 10:01, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Add a link to the FAQ
It may be useful to add links from the old Structured Discussions/FAQ to the Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements/Frequently asked questions, the information (by links) in it at that time looked convincing. Sunpriat 21:18, 2 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Huh, you've found an old and potentially useful page. Your idea is good. However, there's an issue about the context. The Foundation isn't doing anything about Structured Discussions. I imagine if we provided this link, it would look like we were encouraging more people to use Structured Data, or like these projects were connected. What do you think? SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 18:25, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I meant reusing these links "Whitespace myth", "Best practices analysis" and footnotes, not links to the Flow help Sunpriat 18:37, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh, OK, thank you for clarification! SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 20:11, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

'Talk' and 'Contributions' buttons shouldn't be hidden in the navigation bar's drop down menu.
We shouldn't have to click twice to get to our Talk and Contribution pages from the navigation bar. I mean, there's already a bunch of wasted white space to right of the search box and to the the left of our Userpage button for those two icons to be added in the nav bar without any problems. Some1 (talk) 02:57, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Simple English sidebar
I notice in Simple English with the 2022 Vector, the menus on the left side of the page are to the left of the page text as they should be, but they are far above rather than beside the text. Jim.henderson (talk) 05:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

This gives me depression
By merely see this happen week-by-week, I can see this sacred project gradually being destroyed. I wish I could stop this. – Ilovemydoodle2 (talk) 07:35, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Old version

 * Moved from Topic:Wxcz2an2ck4s4cdy

After these changes are made, can I still use the old settings? Ilovemydoodle (talk) 09:26, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes Ilovemydoodle, legacy Vector will be available and you will be able to use it as your skin. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 12:24, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Why does have to be called “legacy”? legacy implies that something is outdated, inferior, no longer supported, none of which apply to Vector "legacy". Maybe instead, you could call it "advanced", "expert", or "classic". – Ilovemydoodle2 (talk) 17:48, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @Ilovemydoodle2, the motivation is purely technical. This is because it's "frozen". The Wikimedia Foundation will not develop it - there will be no actively built version of Vector parallel to Vector 2022. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 20:46, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

wrong name for a language
someone is having a laugh, or got really confused about translation. In the main page https://www.wikipedia.org/, Français now appears as anglais, both in the top 'wheel' and in the 'Read Wikipedia in your language' drop-down. This is very wrong. What other languages have been disappeared in this way ? a bit of QA would go a long way :-) 92.16.98.145 16:23, 19 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for letting us know! This looks like a mistake/error on translatewiki.net. We'll try to fix that immediately. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 18:28, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 * FYI this wasn't related to the project.
 * See related Reddit thread for details on what happened here if you are curious: https://www.reddit.com/r/wikipedia/comments/w2iidz/why_anglais_did_someone_sabotage_it/ Jdlrobson (talk) 20:03, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

coordinates being weird (again)
there was an issue a little while ago where location coordinates in an article would overlap with the header. that's fixed now, but some icons are still uncomfortably close to them, like the FA star; for an example of this, see the english wiki's India article (screenshot) 2600:1700:7AA1:2400:9CA1:1220:42FD:1F12 20:17, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

External link icon
The external link icon currently deployed on mediawiki.org looks horrible. What happened? The icon shown at T261391 in the "After" screenshot looks much better. -- NGC 54  ( talk |  contribs ) 19:55, 26 July 2022 (UTC)


 * @NGC 54, what's the difference you're referring to? Could you maybe share a screenshot? SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 23:36, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @SGrabarczuk (WMF): Here.
 * Vector2022 Broken External Link Icon.png -- NGC 54  ( talk |  contribs ) 10:48, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I saw that the issue was already reported. Compare this with this. Also, for me it looks like the arrow is misshaped. -- NGC 54  ( talk |  contribs ) 10:53, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi @NGC 54 - thanks for your report. The icon is indeed broken as of right now.  We're looking into this right now and hope to have a fix later this week or early next week.   OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 12:05, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Following up: after reverting the change the icon has been revised, and can be reviewed here, https://patchdemo.wmflabs.org/wikis/8c5ad53170/w. AHollender (WMF) (talk) 22:30, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

General concerns!
Well I was part of the process for quite some time now. And up until the move of the TOC from inside the content to the sidebar it was okay with me. I had some minor things, I thought I will get used to: the white space (anyone wanting that, can narrow their window), some inconsistencies (compare ), the language switcher, which I fear will leave the impression of reading the same thing in different languages (compare Talk:Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements/Archive3, as a side-note: nothing happened here, at least nothing I recognized).

But today I got this message: Topic:Wsfx4tbwzkgamaek asking for a translation for Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements/Updates/2022-07_for_the_largest_wikis. Let me cite:


 * "...before discussing the change itself"
 * "...that allows for a way to identify the needs of the community from the new skin."
 * "We would love to see the Vector 2022 skin [...] become the new default across all wikis..."
 * "We will be ready to begin making the change at the end of August (and not in July, as previously announced), when the visual refinements and other deployment blockers are ready."
 * "The goal for that discussion will be to identify breaking issues or opportunities for improvement for the new skin. It will be important for us to reduce the risk of bugs or imperfections that would be particularly troublesome on [insert your language] Wikipedia"

All that reads like: Well, we're just talking, let's see, what needs to be done, that everyone is happy. There are some things that need to be done anyways.

Now let's read those two cites:
 * "...difficult discussions about the launch as the default" (compare Topic:Wsfx4tbwzkgamaek)
 * "...until our improvements are default on all wikis in July 2022." (compare Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements

So isn't this not just a request for bug reports instead of a "discussion"? Is this not more of a fear of "Flak" instead of "needs of the community"? Isn't it happening anyways, instead of you "loving to see it"? What about all the other projects, wikibooks for example ("[insert your language] Wikipedia")? I understand, you do the work, you decide. But:


 * Is it wise to "discuss" while there are still tasks to be done and decisions to be made? (compare Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements/Features/Visual_Refinements, which by the way doesn't even seem finished, and for example )
 * Is the Date of the end of August (6 weeks) really feasible? Who will translate all the feedback that will come in german?
 * Is it good to leave the impression, that communities will have a choice (compare )?

Some suggestions, if I may:
 * 1) Why not try to slow the process down? Why the haste? One could remove the deadlines and refine everything. Then ask the communities for bug reports.
 * 2) Why not try some marketing "tricks"? I think the discussion about the white space clearly shows that desktop improvements are highly subjective. Why not use for example skin changes? Another Option could be deploying Vector 2022 only for not logged in users and hence prolong/smooth the transition-process creating time for bug reports and discussions. Most of anonymous usage would probably not care for the change, as long as the content is there. On another plus-side it will create "data" on how the menu-usage changes and community-links are perceived. It will probably even create data on how many logged in users switch to the new layout deliberately and or switch back hence providing "hard" success-data.
 * 3) Would it be that bad to really leave the community a choice?
 * 4) If you are relying on volunteers, grant them a little more slack. Bug reports from the community need time: Bugs need to be recognized as bugs, they need to be reported, triaged and handled. Is this possible in 6 weeks? Volunteers might have another life, a job, kids, a week might be pretty short notice. Phabricator-use is not that trivial.
 * 5) Let's talk or try, if the new design might eventually be a problem for recruiting new volunteers. Did anyone think about a possible impact of hiding community-links in collapsed menus? Nobody seems to talk about community-pages or discussion-pages or even other project-scopes. Is the new menu-structure as fitting for these as for wikipedia-articles?

I'm deeply saddened. The new TOC will make my life within wikimedia really hard and I commented about that early on (compare here, bullet 7). I think all the TOC-comments on this page (see above) should raise at least some concern. And last but not least, I'm deeply troubled, that the new language-links will do more harm, than good.

So, ping @OVasileva (WMF) and @SGrabarczuk (WMF), my sincere apology, I don't mean to be rude or mean and I appreciate your work and the work of your colleagues. But I don't want to volunteer for the translation-request, because all of the above mentioned problems.

Regards HirnSpuk (talk) 22:25, 20 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Hello @HirnSpuk. Thank you for your outstanding involvement, and appreciation for our work. I'm glad to see that. Also, thank you for your sincere, thoughtful, and thorough comment with all the links and quotes. I think I understand what your approach is, I'm happy that you're saying this.
 * Before I answer the questions, I'll admit/confirm that:
 * The ToC work hasn't been finished yet. So haven't the visual refinements. There's a list of issues labelled as "deployment blockers", by which we mean issues we need to solve before making it the default everywhere. I hope this will make you less sad!
 * Bug reports do need time. Phabricator is not that trivial.
 * While indeed focusing on the most typical use cases, like interacting with articles.
 * In some discussions, it has been confusing what exactly is for the individual communities to choose between.
 * Regarding the questions, my answers to the easiest part:
 * We've been working since 2019, most work is behind us and we're headed towards the end. Now, we need to make sure what else the largest communities may need.
 * What about all the other projects - the message I asked if you could translate is dedicated to the largest communities of the top language versions of Wikipedia.
 * This is why in that message, we're initiating a pre-discussion about culture of collaboration. After that, we'll ask for bug reports and other technical requests.
 * We use the name Desktop Improvements because the point is to make changes that are actual measured improvements. Only some of the visual refinements are really subjective. But regarding the feature changes, the idea for each of these is that it should be an improvement compared to Legacy Vector.
 * We're part of Core Experiences and work closely with the teams focusing on newbies and more experienced editors. It's our plan to make entry points for new volunteers prominent, in collaboration with Growth. We hope that Desktop Improvements will be an introduction to even more sophisticated changes addressing very specific use cases.
 * OK, enough now for one comment. Let's keep talking, though. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 01:30, 21 July 2022 (UTC)


 * @SGrabarczuk (WMF), because you said "let's keep talking", let me react to your latter 5 points.
 * I do not want to diminish in any way the work you (plural) have done since 2019 and I think the plan is good. But I'm convinced, that the timing is not right. "The end of August" I find far to soon if you "need to make sure what else the largest communities may need."
 * I wasn't able to find the "we talk to the «big guys» first"-idea anywhere. The only thing I find is "We would like our improvements to be default on all wikis in August/September 2022." There will probably not be time to talk to the «small guys». And in addition, the text to translate suggest, that there is a choice, and you'd like to "talk". My impression is you want to ask: how can we best ask for bug reports. That might (and probably will) work, but I don't want to be part of exactly this approach.
 * same as first and second.
 * How is the improvement measured? Is there any "hard data" anywhere? Everything needs more clicks hence more time. It "looks" a little better and modern, which I also find necessary and good. But what is actually "improved"?
 * I need more scrolling for the TOC,
 * I will need more work (and creative ideas btw) for rework of community-pages that rely on the "old" version of the TOC at the moment, and even worse, I need to check the visual appearance and usability of pages in even more configurations (to mobile and desktop and VE and source, now I need to add different skins),
 * I need more clicks for almost anything (if menus are hidden, but this is nearly imperative, to get at least some use out of the new ToC),
 * I'm deeply troubled about the "impression" some changes might make (which hence wouldn't be an improvement either and which is by default not measurable)...
 * What about the visually impaired? Is it an improvement for them too, any hard data?
 * Please, feel free to elaborate. I know it would be baloney to change the name in the last 6 weeks of the work. My point is not to do that, but to take a step back, review what's done so far, and if the decision will be made to prolong the process a really long time, then maybe one might think about a change, and if it's only to get less of the "if you do this I'll be done with wiki..."-criticism that's just consuming time for everyone.
 * I'm not addressing technical issues. It's the possible "hiding" of prominent community-links in the sidebar by using elaborate restructuring and collapsing mechanisms. On that the single communities won't have influence as far as I see it at the moment.
 * PS: I appreciate trying to cheer me up ("make you less sad"), but my sadness stems from the uncertainty how this will all work out. In the end the prototype is only a prototype. And how much work in the community must be done afterwards to facilitate the "improvements" is also not clear. The main point being, that I struggle with checking and cross-checking functionalities in different systems. It was okay until the move of the ToC. But as long as there is still work to be done, I can't even think about workarounds for not having the ToC where and how I was used to it.
 * Regards HirnSpuk (talk) 07:34, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Hey @HirnSpuk, thank you for your continued feedback. It's been super helpful. We've rewritten our message to German-language Wikipedia based on your thoughts and the learnings we've gotten through similar conversations on other wikis. We're going to post our next draft for translation this week - let us know what you think of it! We're open to suggestions. Your continued thoughts are much appreciated!
 * In terms of your individual questions:
 * The timing is not right
 * We really do believe that our changes are improvements already! We're eager to bring them to readers and editors. As you have pointed out, we've been building these for three years. We've received feedback from German-language Wikipedians, and many other communities. As you also know, we've performed prototype testing with editors across 30+ languages, and different types of quantitative testing on each feature. Many significant requests have already been discussed.
 * The main reason we want to have this conversation now (while we're putting the finishing touches, like the visual refinements and changes to the table of contents) is that we'd like to see if any of the feedback might change what those finishing touches are. We'd also feel more confident with our plan once we know what the additional work we need to do is, if any.
 * The process we're envisioning is to collect bugs and requests, and triage these into three categories: (1) the ones that must be done before the deployment, (2) the ones that can wait until after the deployment, and (3) the ones that we don't think are a priority. Our goal for the conversation with the communities is to establish what lies in each bucket such that the communities are comfortable with changing the default.
 * We understand if a conversation might take longer on a given community, and do not plan on cutting any discussion short just to reach a deadline. We made a mistake with Japanese Wikipedia and made the change prior to acknowledging a common process. We'd like to avoid that mistake with the other wikis, hence the lengthier discussion with German-language Wikipedia.
 * The "we talk to the «big guys» first"-idea
 * We try to take the approach of equity. We have conversations across the top 25 Wikipedias by size. We've attended a Wikisource Triage meeting and two SWAN meetings. The set of pilot wikis is diverse. We inform the big and small communities about our office hours using different channels, incl. MassMessages, Tech News, Discord, Telegram, Facebook. We're going to have the interpretation support in the top UN languages.
 * How is the improvement measured?
 * Thank you for pointing this out. This very crucial piece was missing. We'll be adding a summary of our findings to our future messages.
 * You'll find the short answer on the English Wikipedia Village Pump page, quite paradoxically brought to everyone's attention using the "hidden" template. For details on any individual feature, go to the “features” section of our documentation, select the feature you are interested in, and review the qualitative and quantitative sections.
 * It's the possible "hiding" of prominent community-links in the sidebar by using elaborate restructuring and collapsing mechanisms. On that the single communities won't have influence as far as I see it at the moment.
 * This is a great question. So far, our interviews with users have shown that newcomers are NOT more likely to begin contributing based on the number (or even presence) of community links. In fact, having so many options at hand made them feel unwelcomed to the interface as they didn't instinctively know where the links would lead, and thus, felt intimidated or lost.
 * We think a better method is to have fewer links that are clearer to understand and pave more intuitive ways. These links are, among others, edit or history. We are working with the Growth and Editing teams to identify how we can increase the understanding of these links for readers and newcomers - both so they will know where the content they are reading is coming from, but also as a means of introducing them to contribution. See also: Core Experiences.
 * What about the visually impaired? Is it an improvement for them too, any hard data?
 * We've been doing accessibility testings with the American Foundation for the Blind. You'll find more information in this task: T310033. Generally though, part of this work goes beyond Desktop Improvements, and is done by our designers who build basic user interface elements for all the teams.
 * Hey, on a side note, have you ever attended our office hours? I (Szymon) don't recall this. You'd have heard answers to some similar questions if you had joined us earlier. Anyway, feel invited.
 * OVasileva (WMF), SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 02:44, 29 July 2022 (UTC)