User talk:PiRSquared17

 Dear, Welcome to MediaWiki.org !

Yes, Welcome! This site is dedicated to the documentation of the MediaWiki software, the software behind many wikis, including that of Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation projects.

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robolobster here
Hi PiRSquared17! I hope this is not an inappropriate place to say hi. Hi! I've been offline for a bit. I'm back to trying to figure out the automatic page creation functionality for Wikicortex. Hope to see you around IRC or elsewhere. Project github https://github.com/robolobster/wikicortex, my home here: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User_talk:Robolobster. BTW where does Myhooks.php go? robolobster

Thanks, and regards, Diego Grez ¡hablemos! 18:36, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the welcome. πr2  (talk &bull; changes )
 * Thanks. Hazard-SJ 03:39, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Global Rollback for me?
Since you have that, do you think I may get it too?--Jasper Deng (talk) 01:09, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Judging by Special:CentralAuth/Jasper Deng, I don't think you have enough experience with cross-wiki anti-vandalism. Maybe you could join the SWMT and watch . πr2 (t • c) 18:24, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm totally new to IRC. Should I get a nick?--Jasper Deng (talk) 01:46, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Registering a nick on IRC is recommended (see these instructions) and you may also wish to request an IRC cloak to prevent people from seeing your IP address. :) Good luck! Mathonius (talk) 02:27, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
 * OK... so, when monitoring small wikis, how hard is monitoring wikis in foreign languages? The only thing I have to show on that is en and fr-2.--Jasper Deng (talk) 02:43, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
 * As a ground rule, I only revert edits if I'm completely sure it's vandalism or spam. I don't think patrolling small wikis (or big wikis in foreign languages) is very difficult. Some types of vandalism are easy to identify, see for example: [//pt.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sin%C3%B4nimo&diff=prev&oldid=29861174 on pt.wikipedia], [//nn.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Fox_and_the_Hound&curid=153621&diff=1999374&oldid=1999359 on nn.wikipedia] and [//es.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Guerra_de_la_Triple_Alianza&diff=prev&oldid=55990700 on es.wikipedia]. Besides that, there are always other users in, , and  who can help you if you're unsure. Mathonius (talk) 03:23, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Global Abuse Filter and beta labs
Hi,

The current policy on enabling extensions in beta labs is that such extensions must have a scheduled deployment date to a production wiki. That list is here: http://wikitech.wikimedia.org/view/Software_deployments

One suggestion might be to create a labs instance of your own for experimenting with the Global Abuse Filter. Instructions to do that are at https://labsconsole.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

Another suggestion might be to contact our Editor Engagement project team. The place to start would be http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Editor_Engagement

69.146.52.74 22:10, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

CORS
Re:, maybe add it to Snippets as well? Legoktm (talk) 04:03, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Snippets/Cross-wiki editing with CORS. πr2 (t • c</b>) 15:07, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Translations on Foundation
Hi! I wanted to give you an update about the translations question. Sadly, I don't have an answer yet because our group meeting in which it was scheduled was cancelled. This means the topic was postponed, but I will bring it up early next week for sure. Sorry about that! heather walls (talk) 22:05, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay. Thanks for helping. πr2</b> (t</b> • c</b>) 22:31, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you!
Much thanks for your help today, dealing with the Flow spam. Sorry it wasn't easier to deal with, but it did help re-prioritize this week's dev work! Best wishes, Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 08:25, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Flow
Well, it's not so bad, I guess. I'll stop bombarding you with questions now. G'night. ~ DanielTom (talk) 00:48, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm certainly not the biggest fan of Flow, but I don't think it's horrible. It might help new users, which is what will really count. πr2</b> (t</b> • c</b>) 00:53, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Note to person with whom I chatted on IRC
Hello, I have made some progress. πr2</b> (t</b> • c</b>) 05:07, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

dash/edit summaries
When you edit (edit source), in the edit summary, if you click the (quick access) dash symbol, it appears in the edit summary (meaning, it continues to write in the edit summary section). This happens here, and on Wikiquote, and I guess on most other wikis as well. But on Portuguese Wikipedia this doesn't happen—if you click the dash symbol, even while typing in the edit summary, the dash appears in the article section. Do you see the problem? ~ DanielTom (talk) 13:46, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Compare MediaWiki:Edittools to pt:MediaWiki:Gadget-charinsert.js. The English Wikipedia's version of this gadget (w:MediaWiki:Gadget-charinsert.js) handles this correctly. Do you need me to investigate more? I think I have a good idea of what is causing the problem actually... πr2</b> (t</b> • c</b>) 15:03, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I'm not well versed in scripting, but if you figured out the problem you can just tell me. :^) DanielTom (talk) 21:33, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

error
I can't see my contributions. When I go here, I get this message:
 * Internal error -
 * [c67aa924] 2014-03-14 20:51:56: Fatal exception of type MWException

Is it just me? ~ DanielTom (talk) 20:54, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for reporting this, Daniel. :-) I already reported this yesterday, actually: 62634. The fix should be deployed on Monday. If you have a Bugzilla account, you may wish to report bugs there as well, instead of just telling me. πr2</b> (t</b> • c</b>) 02:03, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

About the review for my translation
I translated something here, e.g. Help:Contents/zh and Help:Extension:Translate/zh, why is there no one review them several days?-- Rhong Fu Talk 03:37, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
 * maybe nobody else is actively translating and reviewing Chinese here? You could contact someone who knows Chinese to review them if you want. <b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr2</b> (<b style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">t</b> • <b style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">c</b>) 04:01, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Does it require admin or other special rights?-- Rhong Fu Talk 04:17, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
 * No, any user can review individual translations (translate-messagereview) or change group status (translate-groupreview). See Help:Extension:Translate/Quality assurance for more info. <b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr2</b> (<b style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">t</b> • <b style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">c</b>) 04:27, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I know your meaning, but I think it is for general pages. Help:Contents/zh is different. You can see "46 changes in this version are pending review. The stable version was checked on 19 April 2014" in the top of the page and other pages doesn't have something like this.-- Rhong Fu Talk 04:41, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, sorry. I didn't know what you meant. I have granted you editor rights so your edits should be automatically reviewed in the future. <b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr2</b> (<b style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">t</b> • <b style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">c</b>) 04:51, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Now I know it requires "validate" rights (i.e. Mark revisions as being "quality"). When need it, I would ask for your help.-- Rhong Fu Talk 06:45, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Translate Project:Users
I want to translate this page and other pages like this into Chinese, but there is no "translate this page" link. What should I do?-- Rhong Fu Talk 00:58, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

ReːRomanization
Hi PiRSquared17,

Yes, it is Pha̍k-fa-sṳ and the entire Hakka Bible is available in both text and audio format. Thank you for working on the auto-script implementation. It means a lot to us. --Hak-ngìn (talk) 08:21, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I replied to your question on my English Wikipedia talk page. <b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr2</b> (<b style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">t</b> • <b style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">c</b>) 13:37, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, these 2nd list of characters have been identified today after testing it on a widely read article on zh.wiki. It would be great if these new chinese characters are added into the existing list.
 * (I'll be going offline soon). --Hak-ngìn (talk) 19:29, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Great, thanks. I added that to the conversion on tools.wmflabs.org. If you have any more suggestions, I'll try to implement them. I'll upload a new version to gerrit with these fixes soon. <b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr2</b> (<b style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">t</b> • <b style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">c</b>) 20:03, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
 * The translation tool has improved a lot since I last used it. Thanks so much. Here are the the next two hundred chinese characters. (Once again, they were tested and extracted from frequently visited articles on zh.wikipedia). --Hak-ngìn (talk) 22:29, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
 * done again, sorry for the delay (I didn't notice this until just now). <b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr2</b> (<b style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">t</b> • <b style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">c</b>) 22:57, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your help. Third translation batch completed. --Hak-ngìn (talk) 02:40, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Done again. How many more do you plan to add? <b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr2</b> (<b style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">t</b> • <b style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">c</b>) 02:45, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Here is the Fourth batch. Most of the characters were tested and obtained from Wikipedia articles and most Hakka would be familiar with those words. In answer to your question, I do not yet know, however the current results are impressive. --Hak-ngìn (talk) 14:26, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Done again. Do you have any other suggestions to improve the tool? <b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr2</b> (<b style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">t</b> • <b style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">c</b>) 14:49, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Here is the Fifth batch of characters. In answer to your question, the Hakka translation tool would eventually need to contain enough vocabulary list of words (eg. place names, names of people/animals and etc. in order for it to "recognize" when to add in hyphens).  --Hak-ngìn (talk) 20:36, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Done again. Do you think it would be practical to include a large list of words? How many would there need to be? Would it need to recognize when to capitalize too? <b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr2</b> (<b style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">t</b> • <b style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">c</b>) 20:43, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I think current technology allows this to become practical to a huge extent although only a database the size of a chinese-English dictionary could take into account every single word contingency. Let's start with the countries, provinces, states, cities, animals, insects, and well known politicians (both eastern and western) first and see how it goes. (As for capitalisation, all country/region/city names and politican's names ought to have capital letters at the start of their names. For animals/insects and other nouns it can be left as lower case letters.) --Hak-ngìn (talk) 21:02, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I have created a list of all the countries and dependencies Here. Would it be possible to program the translation tool to automatically add hyphens between those country names whilst transliterating? --Hak-ngìn (talk) 21:20, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I have used Excel spreadsheet to give the exact transliterations for the years, dates, months, centuries. I have also manually transliterated the 50 US States. However for the list of countries, cities, and people names, it is probably better to program the transliteration tool to automatically recognize those names (based on a database of names) and add hyphens between each chinese character. Is this possible with current programming technology? --Hak-ngìn (talk) 05:08, 22 June 2014 (UTC)


 * In order to properly hyphenate all the words just for the Hakka Wikipedia mainpage, I have created this list of words at Sandbox 4. Once these words are added into the database then the Hakka Wikipedia mainpage (at least) would be able to be properly hyphenated. I have also separated the list of words containing people's names written in the chinese format, and these names would need to be programmed differently into the translation tool into the following formatː eg. The chinese name "馬英九" would need to be converted to "Mâ Yîn-kiú". --Hak-ngìn (talk) 22:34, 19 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Here is the Sixth batch containing 1158 translated chinese characters. I will be busy in my personal life for the next few days so will be unable to translate any further for quite some time. --Hak-ngìn (talk) 12:41, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry for not replying until now. I was busy. I will work on this some more today and tomorrow. <b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr2</b> (<b style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">t</b> • <b style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">c</b>) 23:25, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I have created links on my userpage to the various translations I have completed. They can now be uploaded into the translation tool (including the sixth batch). --Hak-ngìn (talk) 09:55, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I see that this tool is currently not accessible. What happened? --Hak-ngìn (talk) 08:33, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
 * It is now able to be accessed again. Thanks for helping to fix it. --Hak-ngìn (talk) 11:12, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I personally think that after all those vocabulary (including the latest batch) have been uploaded onto that translation tool, then it would be sufficient enough to be implemented onto Hakka Wikipedia. The key function is to be able to convert the majority of the chinese characters into Hakka. After you have uploaded the latest batch, this would bring the total characters to over 6500 and this should be enough for the translation tool to be installed unto Hakka Wikipedia. (Any further 'upgrades' such as the hyphenization of more words could always be done at a later date). What do you think? --Hak-ngìn (talk) 09:10, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
 * For "Names of people used on the main page (chinese format)", would it be possible to use a list of given names and surnames and allow any combination as a name? <b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr2</b> (<b style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">t</b> • <b style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">c</b>) 14:32, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
 * What exactly do you mean? --Hak-ngìn (talk) 00:37, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Could you please also upload this batch of characters? It would mean a lot to us. Those characters are necessary in order for the tool to be perfected (take for example, this article, any untransliterated chinese characters would visibly stand out). --Hak-ngìn (talk) 20:19, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you so muchǃ You have done a great achievement and the Hakka community will be impressed. --Hak-ngìn (talk) 01:18, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I have added the Seventh batch of characters. You can have those 351 characters uploaded into the transliteration tool because I will not be translating any further characters. so in answer to your question on 02:45, 19 June 2014, I will now stop adding any further characters. If anyone else identifies any further characters to upload then they could do so on your talk page at Hakka Wikipedia (this will probably not happen until several months from now). --Hak-ngìn (talk) 11:59, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Online Hyphenization tool request
Hi PiRSquared17, Thank you so much for updating the latest batch of Hakka chinese characters on August 22 and also for the other updates on the list of words.

Could you also help create an online hyphenization tool which enables users to enter in the Chinese words that require hyphenization (see for example, this uploaded image). The first Textbox would allow each chinese word to be placed on each row and, after selecting from the drop-down menu, the words would be automatically transliterated and hyphenated onto the textbox on the right hand side. After clicking on the submit button, this Hakka conversion tool would then be updated live.

And if a certain word (say for example “美国”) already existed in the word database, and let's say that it was then mistakenly entered into the database a second time or multiple times by accident (via that input tool), would it really matter at all? If it does affect the conversion tool, then could the system be programmed to detect duplicate words and omit that particular word when the "Submit" button has been clicked?

Thanks. --Hak-ngìn (talk) 19:18, 26 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Could you also add a drop-down option for Names of Chinese people so that the first letter of their surname and first name are capitalized and that their first name is all hyphenated (Eg. For Sun Yat-sen (孫逸仙) = Sûn Yi̍t-siên  whereas "Sûn" is the surname and "Yi̍t-siên" is the first name). Some chinese people only have 2 chinese characters (surname & firstname) so in that case, the Surname and Firstname are both capitalized. --Hak-ngìn (talk) 19:44, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
 * And also a drop-down list for names of western people (the names of US presidents from George Washington to Barack Obama is used in this particular example) - when that drop-down option is selected, the First-name and Surname is capitalised & hyphenated and the "dot" between those chinese characters would be automatically removed. --Hak-ngìn (talk) 20:05, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
 * [//tools.wmflabs.org/pirsquared/hakka_conversion/wordlistedit.php], also names should be working now. Feel free to upload the states, names, and missing words, but please only enter in traditional characters. Also, please don't enter numbers/ordinals (I'll implement those separately tomorrow). I will also add some way to edit the full list of words, and to edit the Han<->Latin table. <b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr2</b> (<b style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">t</b> • <b style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">c</b>) 04:49, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * P.S. Every revision is being stored (just like MediaWiki page history), so don't worry about messing it up. <b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr2</b> (<b style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">t</b> • <b style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">c</b>) 04:57, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I am currently unable to select from the drop-down menu because it shows up as blank. Could you help fix it by making the length longer? Thanks. --Hak-ngìn (talk) 23:05, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I was testing something. It should work now. <b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr2</b> (<b style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">t</b> • <b style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">c</b>) 23:21, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The "Transliterated result" box currently shows 16 lines. Could you also enable it to have a scroll-down option so that one could see the rest of the words? Thanks.  Also, what is the current word limit? (ie. how many lines of words am I able to place into the box without exceeding the limit? --Hak-ngìn (talk) 23:37, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for all the updates - It is very much appreciated. For chinese characters that do not yet exist in the Hakka conversion tool, (for example "黃郛" & "高凌霨" is currently transliterated as "Vòng-郛" and "Kô Lìn-霨"; whereas 郛 = fu, 霨 = vùi) can I add those 'new' chinese characters into the transliteration tool under the heading "hyphenated with lower case at beginning" or should it come under a new drop-down heading "[new] individual chinese characters to be added to the conversion tool"? --Hak-ngìn (talk) 00:09, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Please don't add single characters as words; it won't add the transliteration anyway. However, feel free to add words with missing characters (it will still hyphenate correctly, and it will work when the transliterations are added). I was going to add a way to add transliterations of characters, but I got busy today. I will do it later, tomorrow at the latest (hopefully). <b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr2</b> (<b style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">t</b> • <b style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">c</b>) 00:25, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Could you also add a drop-down option for two-letter words where both the first and second letter needs to be capitalized and hyphenization added between the words (eg. 歐美 （literally "Europe-US") = Êu-Mî; 英美 (Anglo-US)= Yîn-Mî; 中美 (Sino-US) = Chûng-Mî. Thanks. --Hak-ngìn (talk) 00:33, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

I saw you tested the character mode before it was working. It should work now (last option in drop-down). Please add traditional only. I'll add another option for what you described. <b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr2</b> (<b style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">t</b> • <b style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">c</b>) 02:53, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanksǃ It now works. --Hak-ngìn (talk) 03:20, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I would recommend you add the biblical names (e.g. 亞多尼雅) as Western names (it works with just first/last name too now). <b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr2</b> (<b style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">t</b> • <b style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">c</b>) 03:26, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Feel free to add the numerals too (and the -su ordinals), but I might end up changing that part. <b style="color:#f90;font-family:Arial">πr2</b> (<b style="color:#0f3;font-family:Arial">t</b> • <b style="color:#03f;font-family:Arial">c</b>) 04:56, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * One issue I have identified is that if a shorter word is entered into the system first, then a longer word is entered later on, then the transliteration editor only recognizes the shorter word but does not 'recognize' the longer word and the last character ends up being disconnected.
 * Eg. if "廣東" (Guangdong) was entered into the tool, then "廣東省" (Guangdong province) was entered later on, it would show up as "Kóng-tûng sén" instead of the correct formː "Kóng-tûng-sén".
 * However if the three-letter word was added first, eg. "河南省" (Henan province), then the two-letter word was added later, eg. 河南 (Henan), then the transliteration tool would correctly identify both words.


 * This problem also exists for languages (eg. "荷蘭語" is currently displayed as "Hò-làn ngî" instead of the correct form "Hò-làn-ngî"


 * Could the transliteration editor be customized to 'overwrite'/'ignore' the shorter word by giving 'first preference' to the longer word and then second preference to the shorter word? Thanks. --Hak-ngìn (talk) 05:20, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Help to correct error
In my fourth-to-last edit, I accidentally chose the "hyphenate with capital" option for the following wordsː
 * 榮耀
 * 歸給
 * 莫想
 * 廢掉
 * 成全
 * 實在
 * 告訴
 * 廢去
 * 一點
 * 一畫
 * 都要
 * 何人
 * 最小
 * 一條
 * 遵行


 * Those words were meant to be "hyphenated with lower case" instead. Could you help fix it? Thanks. --Hak-ngìn (talk) 15:19, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Error correction 2
The chinese character "樂" (meaning "joy") is usually written in Hakka as "lo̍k" for majority of situations. The only main exceptions to this rule are the following wordsː
 * "音樂" (music) = "yîm-ngo̍k"
 * "樂器" (musical instrument) = "ngo̍k-hi "
 * "樂團" (orchestra) = ngo̍k-thòn
 * "樂隊" (concert band) = ngo̍k-chhui
 * "樂章" (music score) = ngo̍k-chông
 * "樂理" (music theory) = ngo̍k-lî

Could you help correct the transliteration tool to input those five exceptional words? Thanks. --Hak-ngìn (talk) 01:46, 30 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Also, it is same type of situation for this character "的" which is virtually always written as "ke" apart from the following exceptions in which it is written as "tit" instead:
 * "目的地" (destination) = muk-tit-thi
 * "的確" (indeed) = tit-khok
 * "目的" (goal) = muk-tit

Thirdly, the chinese character "鮮" has two main possible pronunciations either "siên" or "chhî". The current word entered into the translation tool is "chhî" however after testing it out several times on numerous words, I have now decided that "siên" is the more appropriate translation to use (for example the word for Korea (朝鮮) = Chêu-siên and the word "Chêu-chhî" would not make sense and is incorrect. Could you please help change the Romanized translation for that chinese character from "chhî" to "siên"? (the original number of that chinese character is numbers 1318 and 1319 here.)  Thanks. --Hak-ngìn (talk) 16:40, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Dispenser's source code
Hi PiRSquared! Note that not all of Dispenser's code is non-free. For instance, "embeddedincount.py" (nominated by at least one person here) contains an explicit public domain release, so it is a potential candidate to be transferred to Labs. Notably, reflinks.py contains "Distributed under the terms of the GPL", but some of the files it impotrs (pagegenerators, noreferences) have no licensing information.

Since you talked to him on IRC, do you know if Dispenser wrote all the code himself? Is it simply a matter of him being unwilling to release his code under a free license, or is he unable to do so because it is not all his? This, that and the other (talk) 11:09, 2 July 2014 (UTC)