Project:Proposal for changing logo of MediaWiki, 2020/Round 1

The current logo of MediaWiki was adapted slightly more than fifteen years ago and hasn’t changed since. This logo despite having the nice concept of sunflower, is old. The sunflower represents the diversity, the constant growth and also the wildness.

Among its biggest issues I can point out that it’s a bitmap picture so it’s unusable in large sizes (like large posters) and it’s too realistic making it unusable in small sizes.

Most, virtually all, software products use a simpler and more abstract form. For example, docker, kubernetes, Ubuntu, Vue.js, React, Apache Kafka, and many more. It’s a good time for MediaWiki to follow suit.

My request is for changing the logo of MediaWiki and I have no plans or interest in changing logo of any other project.

Please show your support, oppose or your comments for proposals below. You can also add more suggestions.

Logo changing processes and examples of other projects in meta wiki: Discussion on the logo votes

General discussion

 * I would note that docker, kubernetes, Ubuntu, VueJs, react and kafka are all projects that are very commercial in nature and while they aim their products broadly, corporate users are a major target demographic for them. I'm not sure that's true for us. We definitely do have users in that space, but is that the space we're aiming to compete in? Perhaps these are not the projects we should take our cues from. I'm really not sure, this is more a thought I want to throw out there and not an opinion I necessarily stand behind. Bawolff (talk) 01:16, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * User:Bawolff That is true (my choices was basically the technologies we use and wasn't very attentive to their sources). But I could argue even products of non-profit organizations like Apache Foundation and KDE are also using pretty abstract logos, for example KDE Plasma 5 (which its main target and demography is not corporations and enterprise either, I might be wrong). Ladsgroup (talk) 01:24, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I guess it is sort of the trend now, but i also don't really think we should be chasing trends. If we change the logo, i would want to change the logo to something that lasts, and not have to change it again when the trend reverses. There are certainly logos which are non-abstract. Linux's Tux is an example that comes to mind, and in particular is probably one of the most successful brands in the open source world Bawolff (talk) 01:33, 22 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Maybe we should have a discussion about what type of logo we want, before voting on the individual choices? I'm honestly not sure what the answer is to the question of "what do we want our logo to convey?" Bawolff (talk) 01:45, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * do you know of any other brands that have not changed logo to keep with trends and been successful? Unless I'm mistaken even tux has seen multiple iterations. I think the fact we haven't changed logo gives the impression to outsides that our project has gone stale. Particularly when Vector has barely changed. I think it's dangerous not to innovate in the design area. Jdlrobson (talk) 01:57, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The current version of Tux as used on the Wikipedia article File:Tux.svg looks so similar to the original at https://isc.tamu.edu/~lewing/linux/sit3-shine.7.gif that I'm not sure I can tell the difference. Regardless, I'm not sure that logos, unless absolutely terrible, make enough of a difference to cause a product to sink or swim. That said plenty of companies haven't changed their logo in the last 15 years and are still successful. CBC, FedEx (Found via random googling). Perhaps its a bad comparison because these aren't software projects. Overall, I'm not opposed to changing the logo if there's something that people like - but I feel we should be intentional about the change, not just changing to keep up with the jones. Bawolff (talk) 03:14, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "And if you are going to change the historical record, it does seem a terrible option to make it worse" -- Tom Scott Naleksuh (talk) 02:12, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * If you want something to fuck with pointlessly, why not ruin the vector skin? Naleksuh (talk) 02:12, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Be polite please. Shadows in (old) logo are bad. A lot of small elements are bad. It's not about the subjective feeling of beauty, it is about adaptability and versatility.Carn (talk) 22:20, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

User:Bawolff: I think there is a spectrum between a trend (e.g. "AngluarJS ftw") and a better practice replacing the old one (e.g. "Writing tests"). Of course making sure you don't fall into the trap of trend is hard and sometimes people draw the line differently but I think the general consensus among designers (and not corporate or software designers) is to use abstract forms to depict an item. From easier recognition on smaller devices that's being used more often to accessibility and so much more. I can dig about this topic but for now, the first episode of Docu Series call "The Art of design" might be useful. Ladsgroup (talk) 02:49, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

I see that we all agree on the sunflower, which is good. However, it appears to me that the logo MediaWiki currently uses could be replaced by a nearly as bad one of another kind. All tree alternative proposals need more or less tweaking to bring them to a state for a vote. They all have potential. I think that somehow combining the good ideas in proposals two and three is something to look into. I just hope that we do not end up with an all black version like the WMF itself which constantly suggests that somebody must have died recently. --&#91;&#91;kgh&#93;&#93; (talk) 06:10, 22 June 2020 (UTC)


 * I am missing an obvious proposal. A new sunflower, like in option 1, but with our established square brackets. Masti (talk) 12:26, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * +1 --MGChecker (talk) 12:34, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

I think one of the issues here is that the proposals are too finalised, which makes it easy for people to reject on the grounds of "I don't like the particular shade of blue" or "I don't like this particular font". This way we end up with the status quo again because none of the proposals appeal to everyone's ideal. I think a better approach might be to vote on the general shape and layout of the icon in monochrome with a generic font. Then once that is decided upon we can vote on more detailed proposals. Ed g2s (talk) 13:31, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

I feel the need to point out that the current logo has been already vectorized by Isarra in 2012. This SVG version is still photo-realistic, and also scalable to an arbitrary resolution (it's nuts how that was done). If we can't reach a conclusion on anything else, we could at least officially replace the tiny PNG image with this. Matma Rex (talk) 15:58, 22 June 2020 (UTC)


 * (Also, while browsing related images, I found this one, which would be my favorite for a simplified logo – just imagine it without the sign and the angry color scheme: File:MediaWikis on the loose.svg) Matma Rex (talk) 16:29, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * No, it has white small outlines, that looks bad on small images.Carn (talk) 19:12, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

voting premature
I move we stop voting for now, and give some time for people to test out tweaks of the proposals and come up with new proposals. I think it still makes sense to discuss, but voting before people have had a chance to make their own submissions seems premature. Bawolff (talk) 18:59, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Agree. Carn (talk) 19:12, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I also agree, although I don't know if anyone still views the voting as binding, at this point. Yaron Koren (talk) 23:33, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Proposal one
Since I’m not a designer, I asked several designers and Nirzar kindly accepted to design the new logo and other designers took a pass on it and refined it. This is that logo.

Votes

 * as the proposer Ladsgroup (talk) 00:42, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * with a much lighter, possibly lightblue center. — Aron Man. 🍂 edits 🌾 01:34, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I think this is too bland. There's not enough to distinguish it from other tech projects. I want a logo that's unique, that we can rally behind, that can easily be identified. I feel like if I saw this logo for the first time, I would forget about it soon after seeing it. Its a sunflower - but it doesn't feel like its "our" sunflower, or different from any other abstract image of a sunflower. As an aside, I'm also not a fan of the font for "MediaWiki", but that's a minor quibble. Bawolff (talk) 01:43, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * . The current logo looks more suitable to a site in the 90s. A refresh is definitely in order. I like the simplicity of this logo - it reminds me of how the starbucks logo simplified over the years to become the iconic brand of today (lots of good reading on that subject if somebody isn't convinced that abstract is a good thing). That said it feels a little weird voting on something that is out my realm of expertise. I'm not a designer. I'd be very interested to hear about the design ideas behind this and why this one was chosen. Jdlrobson (talk) 01:54, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This logo looks like something google would make then everybody would ignore. It looks like the complete opposite of the entirety of mediawiki Naleksuh (talk) 02:12, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * , the large black colored circle does not look good. Will rethink if the color changes. --Titodutta (talk) 03:00, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Love it! Yea, the black circle is a little heavy. And I would love to keep the square brackets. But these are minor refinements we can still do before we start actually using this logo. --Thiemo Kreuz (WMDE) 06:16, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd like to keep the square brackets. Also not a fan of that font. – Majavah talk &middot; edits 07:03, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * But, if possible it would be really nice to see some variants of this per the comments above (like maybe with a different font?). KHarlan (WMF) (talk) 08:27, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * , doesn't look like a sunflower, is dominated by a large black hole in the middle. Max Semenik (talk) 08:42, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I think this is a nice proposal that can become a good alternative with some experimentation and refinement. I don't like the dotless i's, so would encourage to try with a different font. –Nikerabbit (talk) 12:49, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Agree that the dot-less i's aren't necessary Ed g2s (talk) 13:16, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * / depending on the outcome. Too simplistic to my taste, it’s not like MediaWiki owns the sunflower metaphor, lowercase ‘medıawıkı’ spelling is bad. Would prefer it to keeping the old logo, but otherwise there are better alternatives. stjn[ru] 13:25, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * : recognition is lost. There is no need for such drastic changes.Carn (talk) 13:38, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * — Like the logo of a company producing sunflower oil. Helgo13 (talk) 13:49, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I love this option so much. It is clean and simple. It can be easily used as a logo system. I used it to easily create this derivative. I think being able to easily modify the logo is the heart of what a wiki is and we should have a logo that reflects that openness. DBarratt (WMF) (talk) 15:20, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ditching the square brackets greatly declutters the logo so I'm in favor of that, and I like the simplicity of the petals and how well it scales down to a smaller resolution for icons. I would change the black circle in the middle to a more neutral color so that the logo works well in dark themes as well where the skin's background is dark or black. Either that or also design a "dark mode" logo. -- Skiz zerz  15:44, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Modern and suitable for a software in the 2020s. This is exactly what I have been wishing for MediaWiki for years. RichardHeigl (talk) 17:52, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It's not perfect, but it's a good starting point. There is no excessive detail and brackets, and it looks good in small sizes. — putnik 20:18, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Black hole ? and no brackets ? Yes, looks like an agri firm logo. Anthere (talk)

Comments

 * I'm not sure I'm a fan of how it looks when its small. Bawolff (talk) 01:06, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * There should probably be multiple size versions (with varying numbers of petals) for any vector sunflower logo, to make sure it's legible at smaller sizes. wctaiwan (talk) 01:28, 22 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Maybe it would be worth trying to make the middle a bit brighter? In the final version, the sunflower should also be centered properly. --MGChecker (talk) 01:10, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * On IRC, User:Jack Phoenix mentioned that this logo seemed quite similar to the https://miraheze.org/ logo (Which i agree with, especially when small). Bawolff (talk) 01:21, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I feel like the contrast between the center and the yellow ray flowers is huge. The yellow part can be hardly seen on the icon-sized image. I think this would be perfect with a light brown or light blue center. +1 for the minimalism. — Aron Man. 🍂 edits 🌾 01:34, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Would it be possible to add the square brackets back? It helps to differentiate MW sunflower with other ones and it adds a bit of personality to the brand. I like minimalism of the logo, having the blue color feels too busy for me. As for the font, it feels more welcoming and friendly compared to the old font. However, the alignment of k feels odd to me. - Alistair3149 (talk) 02:01, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I also offer options with sparse petals.Carn (talk) 18:50, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * What font is this? Is it libre? Max Semenik (talk) 08:42, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I combined this logo with proposal 2, due to taking some of the comments here on board (dislike monolithic black circle and lack of dots on i's). However I left out brackets. I'll try another with the brackets maybe too. Mvolz (talk) 15:13, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I've done another with brackets too. Personally prefer it without as it just starts to get too busy. Mvolz (talk) 16:06, 22 June 2020 (UTC)


 * User:Mvolz Do you want to add them as proposal five and six? Thanks! Ladsgroup (talk) 17:11, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * In general, any vote in this format is profanity. First you need to throw options, then choose the best one from them.Carn (talk) 18:50, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Too many petals are too close - in a small image everything merges into one (something like an eye comes out).Carn (talk) 17:04, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * i think we should investigate having different versions small and large. I think its common to have a small variant of a logo that is not just the big logo scaled down; we dont use the exact same wikipedia logo on the page as we do for a favicon. Bawolff (talk) 20:22, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Votes

 * The detailed ray flowers are really nice and the blue center is a good complementer - maybe a bit too strong -, but the brackets around it I think are incompatible. — Aron Man. 🍂 edits 🌾 01:34, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Solution looking for a problem, this is just the current logo but changing it for the heck of it Naleksuh (talk) 02:12, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but the different shades of blue don't work well together. The shapes feel unbalanced. --Thiemo Kreuz (WMDE) 06:17, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * per Naleksuh. The two circles feel out of place. – Majavah talk &middot; edits 07:03, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The yellow petals seem messy to me, and I do not understand the blue circles. --MGChecker (talk) 12:34, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * . Ed g2s (talk) 13:16, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * . The flower looks plucked, the font is bad, prefer the third proposal in comparison. Do prefer anything over the current logo. stjn[ru] 13:25, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * No more brackets, please. It makes the whole project old-fashioned. RichardHeigl (talk) 17:55, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This is an identity, losing logo recognition is the last thing we need. A logo without brackets from the first proposal would suit an oil company. They look like some kind of gas burners. Carn (talk) 19:19, 22 June 2020 (UTC)


 * not yet ideal (would need some further exploring) but I rather like that proposal actually. But why two circles ? Why blue ? Anthere (talk)

Comments

 * I'm not really ready to vote yet, still have a lot to think about, but I think this is my favourite if we're not keeping the status quo. Bawolff (talk) 01:25, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I think the brackets don't really fit this logo, maybe it would be better without. — Aron Man. 🍂 edits 🌾 01:34, 22 June 2020 (UTC)


 * A very good shade of blue is associated with data. Carn (talk) 17:18, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Votes

 * . I've never liked this version of the sunflower. I don't think the complex sunflower image works when turned non-photorealistic Bawolff (talk) 01:00, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * . It feels bland. — Aron Man. 🍂 edits 🌾 01:34, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Bad attempt at "modernizing" the current logo, which, again, nothing is wrong with and fits the entire site much better. Naleksuh (talk) 02:12, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This is my favourite if we're not keeping the status quo. – Majavah talk &middot; edits 07:03, 22 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Not too different from the current logo but still a nice, modern update. Daylen (talk) 10:50, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * . Ed g2s (talk) 13:16, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * . While both the sunflower and the wordmark can be improved upon (this font is not used anymore in Wikimedia things, sunflower can be made more scalable), this is a conditional support of a direction in which logo improvement must go forward. stjn[ru] 13:25, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * - of the four proposed, this is the best aesthetically (and most similar to the original). But aesthetics is not the most important thing for a logo. Carn (talk) 19:15, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * — At the same time, a traditional and updated logo. Helgo13 (talk) 13:47, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * . I think this is the best option out of the proposed ones (so far). It will need a bit more work but it is an improvement without moving too far away from the current logo. DMaza (WMF) (talk) 15:04, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Without brackets this would be acceptable. However, it is a less courageous approach. RichardHeigl (talk) 17:56, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * would still need some work (center in particular is quite ugly) but I rather like the approach Anthere (talk)

Comments

 * Not enough contrast, too thin lines between the petals.Carn (talk) 17:02, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Votes

 * Oh hey, this one is good! Wait, we had it all along? Naleksuh (talk) 02:12, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * higher resolution/SVG version of this image. Regards. --Titodutta (talk) 03:03, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It's not ideal, but it's better than the current alternatives. Yaron Koren (talk) 03:07, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * – Majavah talk &middot; edits 07:03, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * , while the problems with this logo are real, it just looks so goddamn positive. Max Semenik (talk) 08:47, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ed g2s (talk) 13:16, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * . Never liked it, never understood what’s to like about it. Awful text shadow, non-scalable sunflower. Even worse was using, I think, Translatewiki.net years ago with this sunflower transposed over content background (something for older user to remember, I guess). stjn[ru] 13:25, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * : raster logo is the last century. Carn (talk) 13:37, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * : This is terrible and anything is better than this. Sorry, old logo :). Mvolz (talk) 14:47, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * . This isn't even really looking like a logo. Logos aren't usually photorealistic. I've always looked at the place for a logo on mediawiki.org and thought "Oh when oh when will they actually get a logo". Honestly, mediawiki.org has always felt... not quite serious because of the logo. Jack who built the house (talk) 15:47, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * People already wrote the reasons, I just want to remind people that this is not a logo, it's a picture. Ladsgroup (talk) 16:58, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I understand some of the arguments listed above (need a refresh etc.) but I still do like it :) Anthere (talk)

Comments

 * I don't think the logo pictured here is the current logo. The petals look weird relative to File:MediaWiki logo without tagline.png. The lack of high resolution in the official one is very unfortunate... Bawolff (talk) 01:04, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * hmm, now searching I got File:MediaWiki-notext.svg from Logo. Does that sound better? Ladsgroup (talk) 01:14, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The fact we have multiple apparent versions, and it's not obvious which is which... Reedy (talk) 01:16, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I think the official logo would be the one we actually use, on the site. The SVG version honestly looks pretty terrible. Bawolff (talk) 01:18, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Bawolff I took the liberty of removing your logo and replacing mine with it. Hope that's fine with you (WP:BOLD) Ladsgroup (talk) 01:27, 22 June 2020 (UTC)


 * So I'm pretty attached to our current logo and like it a lot. But even i must admit its a real problem that we don't have a good faithful vectorized version, or even a high resolution version. This especially hurts us when making stickers/swag/posters etc. Bawolff (talk) 01:29, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * If the problem is lack of high resolution though, one option is to just take a new, higher resolution picture of a sunflower. Bawolff (talk) 01:36, 22 June 2020 (UTC)


 * The brackets seem to be behind the sunflower, not around it like in Proposals 2,3. I think this gives a more open feeling to the image. — Aron Man. 🍂 edits 🌾 01:34, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Like Bawolff, I too have become personally attached to the current logo - though I can see that it's not great, objectively speaking. The fact that it's a photo causes problems, and seems behind the times. And the brackets, while clever, may be too "busy". And then there's the most dated aspect of the logo, that pointless drop shadow on everything (thankfully, the "Powered by MediaWiki" version doesn't have it). So, I agree that the logo could use an update. However, I don't like any of the other proposals that much. The first logo is probably the strongest one, but it has some problems: it lacks any kind of whimsy, and looks better when it's smaller. And what's up with the missing dots on the "i"s?


 * I also want to state that, in my opinion, the world is currently in a state of minor lockdown-induced insanity, and I don't think I trust us to collectively make good decisions right now. I think it makes sense to postpone this discussion maybe another six months or so - which would also provide enough time to maybe organize some actual logo contest. Yaron Koren (talk) 03:07, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * In addition to covid stresses, there is very real stress/burn out/general insanity from the other branding discussion that we should probably be mindful of. Bawolff (talk) 05:02, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Proposal five: Ask someone else to make good SVG logo



 * Changes are necessary, but none of the proposed options suits me. you did a wonderful job, how about doing more?Carn (talk) 13:36, 22 June 2020 (UTC)  Carn (talk) 13:40, 22 June 2020 (UTC)


 * PNG logo is a disaster. Only automatic vectorization can be worse than it. Dramatically changing a recognizable logo does not make much sense though. Organizations are changing their logos after some bad events. Recognition of the logo should always come first. But if there is an option to maintain recognition of a logo and draw it for higher resolutions - we might need to do this. Carn (talk) 13:36, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * After consulting with logo desginers I realise that logo need three things - contrast (both color and for grayscale), small resolutions (no thin lines and spaceous elements), recognition (it may be necessary to save the sunflower and brackets). But first you need to write where this logo will be used - hang in the corner on the site, with a small icon in the browser tab and on conference posters, for example. Carn (talk) 19:30, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This variant (if it was whole with textures) would be good only for posters, very bad for small icon.Carn (talk) 19:32, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This could work as long as it isn't too different from the current one. The vectorized version looks worse for sure, but there's noreason to think a manual one wouldn't either. Naleksuh (talk) 21:37, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Proposal six
A small size version can be with fewer petals. --Serhio Magpie (talk) 18:53, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Votes

 * Refreshing! Thanks for the original ideas.Carn (talk) 19:35, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * . A good alternative to the proposal one. The same advantages in terms of simplicity and getting rid of unnecessary elements. — putnik 20:20, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * . I like the first option best. Very professionally looking, no superfluous elements, dots above i's are not lost, no burdensome blackness of the first proposal's logo. Jack who built the house (talk) 20:51, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Where's the text? Where's the brackets? And definitely not the second one. Naleksuh (talk) 21:37, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Comments

 * It looks a little like the BP logo, no? Yaron Koren (talk) 21:00, 22 June 2020 (UTC)