Talk pages consultation 2019/Individual feedback

This is a page for all wiki contributors to add your perspectives and ideas to the Talk pages consultation 2019. The goal of the consultation is to identify a general product direction for improvements to the communication tools on wiki by the end of June. (For more information, see the TPC main page.)

When we say "talk pages," we mean all the on-wiki forms of communication. This could mean any of the talk namespaces, a project page, a subpage, a sandbox, or any other page. It includes all the tools or systems you use on the wiki: wikitext talk pages, Structured Discussions (Flow), LiquidThreads, user scripts, gadgets, WikiLove messages, pings, notifications, etc.

Please explain your needs in as much detail as you can.

Feel free to respond to other people on this page, if you'd like; we'd like to get as much information as we can. If you have questions or thoughts about the consultation process, please tell us. You can write on the consultation main talk page, or ping DannyH and Trizek. Thanks!

This page has special markup for translation. If this page is too complicated, then try the talk page.

When you want to talk on-wiki, what tools work for you, and what problems block you? Why?

 * As an experienced admin I'm fine, but even so, the constant need to use (numerous, convoluted) templates with detailed "what to do" directions, on each of multiple pages just to notify multiple users/talk pages/project pages, or in processes such as AFD/RFC/DRV/ANI/..., is a massively time consuming annoyance. Can this be ripped out and replaced with some kind of automated editor-process handler which defines the inputs needed, and stipulates in machine-usable logical steps, where these inputs should be posted on-site, and using what templates? So you can select an arbitrary wiki-process or template, and internal code in the template or page lists any required/optional inputs +validation, and what templates+content should be posted above/below which anchors on which pages as a result. So you can just pick a template, a form pops up, you fill in some text fields and validation + all edits for that process are posted automagically. That would be huge.  (Extra thoughts: We already have if-then-else and other statements as part of the parser. The validation/process handling code for a template would be held with the templates or on relevant project pages, in special &lt;process> ... &lt;/process> tags that render as a link+optional text to start the process, and creatable/updateable as templates and processes change, using ordinary editing, like any other template edits. WORKED EXAMPLE FOR AFD: the inputs could be one or more article/s to AFD, the AFD reason, type of AFD, a list of users/pages[+sections] to notify, and an optional user message or blank for the default notification wording. After entering these on a single page form, the inputs are used to test input validity, create the AFD for the article/s, list them at the AFD summary page, and notify users/pages, adapting its postings for repeat AFDs after testing whether an AFD already exists for the page.) 
 * If I were a less experienced user, I'd hate adding to talk pages. I'd like to see a hybrid system whereby discussion remains on talk pages as usual, but there's the additional ability (if desired) to read and add to it using ordinary chat systems somehow bridged to Mediawiki, and not just plain mediawiki editing. Perhaps talk pages and their sections can have links next to them "open for replying in a chat client" (or "add new section in a chat client")?  (On the possible objection that it implies social chatter, Stack Exchange's website chat system shows that if designed well, a tight focus can be achieved on topic. Anyway, we want user engagement so perhaps facilitating easy reader engagement may facilitate?) 
 * Those would be my two choices. Thank you! FT2 (Talk 11:21, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * FT2 (and anyone else), if you had to choose between "improve article talk pages and user talk pages" vs. "fix AFD and ArbCom case pages", which would you suggest doing first? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:03, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
 * StructuredDiscussions can be annoying due to reduced control when (re)editing.--Flugaal (talk) 11:36, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Are you using StructuredDiscussions in its wikitext editing mode or with the visual editor? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:03, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
 * What blocks me is if the interface gets in the way. Please do not remove the ability to enter text in a plain text editor with zero bells and whistles. Being forced to use an "visual editor" would considerably reduce my enjoyment and usefulness. The format of MediaWiki talk pages is horrendously ineffective. I don't mind you making things easier for newbs, as long as you offer a way to completely opt out of it all. CapnZapp (talk) 11:48, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Support - I'm still using markup editing + MonoBook for that reason - used to it, quicker, less browser hassle, works well, compact, more control. FT2 (Talk 11:56, 4 April 2019 (UTC)


 * I will hand out a barnstar for anyone who implements the ability to edit (my own) edit comments. Paradoctor (talk) 14:38, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * See T15937. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:26, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I would love the ability to comment on or question an edit/reversal directly from the History view, without having to go over to the editors talk page, start a new topic and then reference the edit (something that won't even work if the edit comes from an IP). As it stands, many editors will now often reverse an edit and use the edit summary as a way to start the conversation. I use this method myself with editors I'm familiar/friendly with, but it's less than ideal. Moebeus (talk) 15:23, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Contrary to many, I'm a big fan of Structured Discussions, I think they really lower the bar for people not familiar with templates, indenting, markup and the like. I suspect the Flow team gets more hate than love, so here's some 💗 from me. Moebeus (talk) 15:23, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * This is a very small thing and maybe it's just me, but whenever I see a red badge I instinctively think "warning", "bad news", "immediate action needed". Yet often, I'm simply being pinged or mentioned. Would a blue or other color badge be more appropriate to better distinguish between warnings and mere notifications? Moebeus (talk) 15:34, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * See T142981. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:26, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
 * At English Wiktionary, I often contribute to talk pages that have a large number of individual active threads, such as the "Tea Room" or "Requests for Deletion". These threads may develop over a period of days or weeks, or even months. What I need is a way to subscribe to individual threads, so that I receive notifications when new posts are added to threads that I am interested in. Without this facility, it is hopeless trying to track the discussions that one is participating in. Mihia (talk) 17:53, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * To make talk pages better, revert vandalism or disruptive edits straight away. Hurricane Bunter (talk) 19:37, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * For mobile users, it would be nice if I could jump to the talk page without scrolling to the bottom of the article, the reverse of what I do on a pc. Sometimes the articles are long! Student7 (talk) 20:03, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd love to see Structured Discussions picked back up, I don't see any reason to use wikitext in talk pages. Yes, it makes more challenging things easy (with templates and such), but it makes basic discussions absurdly complicated, especially for new users. In every other site I've seen, once you have an account the only barrier to making a reply in a conversion is to type into an HTML textarea and press "Submit". Nothing else is necessary, it's automatically formatted, lots of sites automatically have threading, most sites have notifications when a conversation you've commented in has a new comment, most sites have a built-in mechanism for @-ing people, comments are often separated into different sections automatically, and there's no need to manually add a signature because the site handles it for you. Wikitext has none of these features without bending over backwards. I love Structured Discussions, they're so much easier and make me actually want to interact with others on Wikipedia or Wikidata. I almost didn't even comment here specifically because I didn't want to deal with Wikitext. I think that there may be a lot of others like me. Thanks, and sorry for the long comment. I feel pretty passionate about this, and have since I started editing Wikipedia over seven years ago. Nicereddy (talk) 23:23, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I also wanted to mention that, despite having around 5000 edits on Wikidata in the last few months, I never saw the request for comment in the Project chat. I only discovered it after I browsed the "talk page consultation 2019" pages and found that there was a summary of the discussion from Wikidata, that I never saw and was never involved in. Obviously I feel strongly about this and would have loved to offer my suggestions, but I never heard about it. I'm not sure what the solution to this would be (short of notifying everyone with a big banner), but I definitely feel like that biases the responses to power users. I also wanted to point out this comment on the Wikidata RfC, which essentially sums up my opinion on the topic. Thanks and again sorry for the long comment! Hopefully I'll sign my comment properly this time :) Nicereddy (talk) 23:47, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Structured Discussions sounds much better than what we have now. // Things that block me and/or others: (a) Experienced editors who slam other (less experienced) editors with a litany of criticisms, sprinkled liberally with references to THE LAWS OF WIKIPEDIA, you know, the ones that look like this: U:RSTUPID . (Just to make sure ... this entry contains misstatements of fact, e.g., "laws of Wikipedia" and fake wikilinks because I am being SAR:CASTIC . Yes, I know I am NOT:ONTOPIC exactly, b/c I'm talking about human behavior, not tools. But if we don't collectively and actively discourage Biting, Gnawing, and Dismembering Newcomers and less experienced editors, the best tools in the world won't matter much.  - Mark D Worthen PsyD   (talk)  00:22, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
 * This I agree with: we need to double down on "do not bite the newcomers". Remember that back in 2005-2006ish people didn't have as many issues with adding to talk pages. I do believe there should be thoughts of updating talk pages as people used to Facebook/2010ish sites may be a bit bewildered, but it's more important to make the user experience friendly. WhisperToMe (talk) 05:42, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Off-wiki, I'm pretty much an e-mail-only person, so I've never used Facebook or anything similar. What can you tell me about ideas or concepts that you'd like to copy from sites like that?  For example, I hear that they're more mobile-friendly, and that you can block users if you don't want to read what they have to say.  What would be most useful in our context?  (Yeah, I know, the team would want to do formal UX research and user research, but I'm interested in what you all are thinking about.)  Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:59, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I do think adding comments without needing to add the signature would be quite useful. Having a selection of public domain emoticons would be nice as well. Oddly enough I would not like to see "block users if you don't want to read what they have to say" as I fear it could result in Balkanization of conversations. Wikipedia works as well as it does because users of different points of view are forced to interact with each other. WhisperToMe (talk) 18:10, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

How do new users on your wiki use talk pages, and what problems do they run into?

 * Many new users fail to correctly make new sections for new discussions. Perhaps some scroll to the bottom and click "edit" without knowing about the button at the top. Anarchyte (talk) 11:15, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * (+1) Winged Blades of Godric (talk) 15:38, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Forgetting to sign their posts. There is nothing that says "Don't forget to add your signature" when editing a talk page. Anarchyte (talk) 11:15, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * +1 for the signing problem. That should not need much explanation/intervention/effort for a user. Maybe it should just be automatic, maybe even without much cryptic wiki code appearing.--Flugaal (talk) 11:26, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I concur that new users ought to have an option enabled (by default) that always append an signature in certain spaces (talk, article-talk et al). Once, you are experienced enough, you find out that setting and might wish to turn it off. Winged Blades of Godric (talk) 15:38, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Anarchyte, at your home wiki, instructions to sign every post are provided at the top of every talk page window. See  w:en:MediaWiki:Talkpagetext, or look at the top of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random/Talk?action=submit  Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:10, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * tl;dr, nothing says welcome like a wiki'splaining wall of text, and then shifting the burden of mediawiki UI on the user, and then warnings to sign posts. Slowking4 (talk) 11:39, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
 * You left out the step in which we moan that nobody reads the directions. ;-)  I've spent more than a little time adding missing signatures to Village pump pages, and it's my opinion that just telling people to do it, or even how to do it, isn't sufficient.  (But what are we realistically willing to give up to solve that problem?  Slowness?  Sometimes it signs when it shouldn't, and sometimes it doesn't sign when it should?  Re-training our fingers to stop automatically signing?  I don't know about you, but I've sent more than a few e-mail messages that I signed with four tildes, and if full auto-signing were implemented, I'd probably accidentally double-sign some messages for weeks.)  Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:53, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Formatting to differentiate your post from previous ones takes knowledge/experience. Also, with lengthy discussions, it's impractical to just keep adding indentation.--Flugaal (talk) 11:29, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Lots of little discussions get scattered on article pages and never get more eyes other than the few that have watchlisted those pages - it would be nice if the project tagging system allows any new talk page posts to be alerted to all those who subscribe to the projects to which that article is tagged. New users should be automatically asked if they want to join projects, based on the articles that they edit and the projects they belong to. [An alternative to using projects to channel notifications could also be categories - but it becomes more complex due to nesting etc.] Shyamal (talk) 12:00, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * AFAIR, Bobo03 was running a research project as to auto-suggesting projects to new editors, based on their editing patterns or something roughly similar to that. Winged Blades of Godric (talk) 15:38, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * It's not so much as problems with new users not knowing how to make sections and signing their comments but it's more of not really explicitly showing what the talk page is there. We have to bullet point the functions but is there something more to streamline or illustrate the points? A simple effective flow chat perhaps? The Grid (talk) 12:11, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * When a user first creates their account, small messages boxes appear that explain the basics. I do not remember there being any of these tips on Talk pages when I made my account (I could be wrong though. Afterall, I did make my account years before I decided to use it). --Diriector Doc (talk) 13:24, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Edit conflicts, counting colons for some feeble attempt at threaded conversations, crazy colorful signatures or none at all, impossible to write on mobile, the whole thing is a terrible hack and I can't imagine what it would be like for anyone with accessibility issues. There's no user profile images to humanize people just a little (not just "social media" websites have user images, but practically every major website, including twitter, ebay, github, soundcloud, and Wikimedia Foundation's own Phabricator) but any attempt to add a profile image on Wikipedia means licensing your face for use by anyone for any remix or advertising or anything they please (seriously wtf? why should anyone have to open themselves up for harassment like this to have a user image?). The whole comment system is a disaster, and the only reason you're asking the user base is because you already know it. I look forward to seeing the Wikimedia Foundation "consult" the users for the next 20 years on this issue before ultimately admitting they don't have the ability or resources to develop anything better, and will never be able to get the users to switch over any way. Stop wasting everyone's time. Pengo (talk) 22:07, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * ^^What Pengo said.^^ Brilliant.  - Mark D Worthen PsyD   (talk)  00:25, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
 * People often forget to sign, and sometimes users criticize them for doing so. The signature instructions are at top, but people often don't read what isn't bolded or italicized. If it's important, we need to call attention to it. I also second Mr. Worthen's statement that user issues are more important than technical talk page stuff. WhisperToMe (talk) 05:40, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for participating!

Radical redesign of UI
Talk pages are still available mostly to experienced editors. Newbies (especially readers) don't even know they exist. That's because talk button/tab is not the standard way to enable discussion on web pages. Standard way is either forums or chat, chat being the most popular. If you can make it chat, you can improve the involvement manyfolds. You can give a floating chat window, in which user can interact in steps. Step 1: Topic selection/creation, Step 2:Read/Write. And replace signature with username (automatic) just like chat. Capankajsmilyo (talk) 00:30, 5 April 2019 (UTC) Support this idea. It needs to be as easy as possible. It boggles my mind that Talk pages on Wikipedia don't even have VisualEditor as a possibility yet. 122.57.169.187 00:41, 5 April 2019 (UTC) (This comment was me, logged-out. Oops.) Hl (talk) 00:41, 5 April 2019 (UTC) I too support this because the UI really sucks, can we have talk page like whatsapp messenger and why we need to sign our comments in 2019 ? I think a small popup on the left or right side should be displayed, and why we call it talk pages ? Can we rename it to chats or messages ? No one other than editors understands what is a talk page. And why editors use Wikipedia terms when talking to newbies ? I have seen many editors using term like WP:BLP, WP:AFD and WP:IRS etc to IP editors, I think these should get converted to their full forms automatically. And to increase editors I would suggest try to follow Facebook's header style login interface. And why are we still using only text ? It would get much better If you add some nice CSS buttons. -- Eatcha (talk) 09:34, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
 * support but expect pushback, cultural inertia is why status quo remains. Slowking4 (talk) 11:37, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Eatcha, I'm not familiar with Whatsapp. Can you tell me what ideas or concepts you'd like to copy from it?  Also, if you (any of you) haven't seen StructuredDiscussions (aka the first step of what was to be a much larger project to smooth some workflows, called Flow) before, then you might take a look at Talk:Talk pages consultation 2019/Individual feedback.  It defaults to visual editing on this wiki, but you can switch to wikitext mode via the pencil icon.  Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:47, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
 * FT2 suggested "ordinary chat systems somehow bridged to Mediawiki" above. Capankajsmilyo, Hl, Eatcha, Slowking4, what do you all think about that idea?  If it were somehow possible for you to read and reply to discussions from a chat system app (any good examples?), would that be useful?
 * I can tell you that the team is not going to build a chat system. One of their goals from the outset was to get everything on wiki:  open, public, transparent, and permanent.  But whether you first go to the talk page and click an Edit button, or open a third-party messaging client and post to the wiki through its tools – well, I don't remember anyone talking about it, but that might be something they would consider.  Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:21, 5 April 2019 (UTC)