Engineering Community Team/Meetings/2014-04-08

[16:00:45] 	 hi there [16:01:39] 	 andre__, guillom, are you ready? [16:01:44] 	 Good evening, Internet! :) [16:01:47] 	 yes! [16:01:47] 	 hi qgil [16:01:49] 	 Hello [16:01:58] 	 We will run this meeting casually, without meetbot [16:02:05] 	 Ok, let's start [16:02:08] 	 (yay :) [16:02:14] 	 Welcome to the Engineering Community Team monthly meeting [16:02:21] 	 In fact we meet every Tuesday, but once a month we do it here on IRC. [16:02:27] 	 andre__, guillom, and myself are here to discuss and answer questions in our best capacity. [16:02:39] 	 sumanah is not here with us today, she is at PyCon! [16:02:48] 	 The open agenda can be found at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Engineering_Community_Team/Meetings#2014-04-08 [16:03:15] 	 If you have any other topics, just raise your hand [16:03:31] 	 And if you are here for the meeting,, raise your hand as well. Eoooo! [16:03:36] 	 _o/ [16:05:18] 	 right [16:05:18] 	 :) [16:05:44] 	 Ok, no worries. If you read this later on you can still raise your hand. [16:06:06] 	 In the meantime, the ECT team will proceed with the meeting. [16:06:26] 	 The first point is: Simplest process to organize and announce activities [16:06:35] 	 You might have noticed that lately we are not hosting Tech Talks -- https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Meetings [16:06:42] 	 It is basically my fault, but let me explain. [16:06:48] 	 Apart from the objective fact that I have been really busy in the past months, one deeper problem for me and anybody else organizing meetings is the pre & post effort it takes to organize them. [16:06:55] 	 Surprisingly, the taslk itself is not the complex part. Pick a speaker (we have many), pick a topic (idem), and just go. IRC or Google Hangout-on-Air are simple to run. [16:07:03] 	 But if you want to do things community kosher, you probably need to edit 3-4 pages in 1-2 wikis, send an email to 1-4 mailing lists, update a couple of calendars, ping in your social media channels... [16:07:19] 	 After the event you will need to do 50% of that to send links to everybody, and you will feel bad because you still have to convert the video and upload it to Commons... [16:07:39] 	 While I agree with each of these steps, the total sum is quite a lot of overhead [16:07:46] 	 especially when you are busy, as we usually are [16:08:11] 	 a kosher community process killing community meetings is a concept somewhat wrong, so... [16:08:18] 	 on a smaller level, it's similar for me when planning to pick up hosting bugdays again: I realized how much time I spent when announcing them (wiki pages, mailing list, calendar) and reminding and documenting, and that it's one of those smaill things that create some stop energy for me [16:08:36] 	 yes andre__ it is the same problem [16:09:01] 	 So... this week I will start something different. [16:09:35] 	 I'm working on the thinnest process to announce reasonably an online meeting, and have it published after it is done. [16:09:51] * yuvipanda waves� [16:09:59] 	 Anybody willing to organize a community meeting will be required to follow this thinnest procest [16:10:27] 	 But that's it, no more requirements, the rest of the work will depend on how much extra energy the promoter of the meeting wants to put [16:10:41] 	 I'm still polishing the details, but this will be a combination of [16:11:03] 	 Listed in https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Calendar [16:11:26] 	 Added as event + hangout on air in the MediaWiki Google+ page [16:11:35] 	 In my experience with Tech News, all the little steps are really easy to do if there's a checklist to follow. When all the steps are listed, with direct links etc, it can be done pretty quickly. I'm also happy to help write that checklist and help do some of the steps if the basic announcement has been done [16:11:43] 	 Or added in meta:Office hours if it is IRC [16:11:59] 	 and logs linked from the same entry in the Calendar [16:12:14] 	 That's it. If we have time to add more, then fine. Otherwise, you are good to go. [16:12:34] 	 guillom, thank you, and yes [16:12:49] 	 the ToDo list is important [16:13:00] 	 I will have a draft today-tomorrow [16:13:13] 	 because Subbu wants to have a Tech Talk next week [16:13:17] 	 about Parsoid [16:13:33] 	 comments / questions? (hi yuvipanda ) [16:14:05] 	 I think this can actually be an opportunity to get better at all the little things like announcing on social media etc :) [16:14:08] 	 I will be drafting this process in https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Meetings [16:14:19] 	 hi qgil. I've a question that popped up in my mind earlier today, but is unrelated to current topic. Let me know when that is done and I'll ask :) [16:14:43] 	 It doesn't have to be a requirement but I think the checklist will prevent things from falling through the tracks [16:14:49] 	 ok yuvipanda, we will follow the agenda, eaving time for AOT [16:15:05] 	 :) ok! [16:15:41] 	 guillom, agreed. Probably the best thing is to define a very small set of required steps, and then define the rest by priority [16:16:01] 	 Alright, more when I have a draft to share. [16:16:21] 	 NEXT TOPIC [16:16:24] 	 Process to submit/review volunteer product manager/owner applications. A backlog of a dozen is known as of 2013. Cf. LCA [16:16:42] 	 Who proposed this one? [16:16:47] 	 Nemo [16:17:00] 	 I was hoping he'd be around to tell us more :) [16:17:13] 	 But he seems to be offline [16:17:24] 	 I have pinged him. In the meantime, let's move to the next point. [16:17:38] 	 Update on Project management tools/Review (guillom and andre__) [16:17:50] 	 just a quick update so everybody knows where we're at [16:17:53] 	 Latest news: [16:18:03] 	 * 10 days ago we hosted a lively IRC office hour. Log can be found here: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-office/2014/wikimedia-office.2014-03-28-17.04.html [16:18:10] 	 * we also published a first draft of an RfC: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Project_management_tools_review [16:18:25] 	 * issues that are specific to the proposed option to migrate to Phabricator are handled in the Phabricator test instance itself at http://fab.wmflabs.org/project/view/14/ (with the side effect that everybody can try Phabricator in practice). [16:18:44] 	  related to that, Andre upstreams any issues (for Phabricator to https://secure.phabricator.com/ ) that would have to get solved in upstream code; same for the proposed "Scrumbugs" option (upstream: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?&component=Scrumbugs&product=Websites ) [16:19:04] 	 Guillaume and Andre continue to work on the RfC (consolidate options; remove specific implementation details) and are going to finalize it in the next days. [16:19:10] 	 Then we will probably ask the community in a survey to add a plus or minus and a short summarizing opinion in one sentence to the proposals in the RfC. [16:19:17] 	 This won't be a "binding vote" or something - just to remind, the whole idea behind is to create a *recommendation* for Wikimedia development teams which tools to use [16:19:32] 	 Oh, and we'll very likely have another IRC office hour soon, to continue working on those points where we might feel stuck or more need to discuss. [16:19:39] 	 (as usual, you can find status updates on https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project_management_tools/Review#Status ) [16:19:46] 	 That's it from my side :) [16:20:02] 	 Comments, questions, criticism, now bring them up, please! [16:20:39] 	 Please schedule the next office hour. I want to test http://fab.wmflabs.org/calendar/ :) [16:20:48] <andre__>	 hehe [16:21:15] 	 More seriously, it would be good to define the frequency of the IRC meetings, as agreed in the previous one [16:21:31] 	 We decided monthly at least [16:21:42] 	 And more as needed iirc [16:22:15] 	 Considering how lively the first one was, and considering that we would like to have a decision by the end of JUne, it looks like monthly might be too slow [16:22:47] 	 There will be one session at the Zï¿½rich hackathon, most likely [16:23:35] 	 yes, that's planned [16:23:46] 	 Ok, you will figure this out. [16:23:57] 	 Then, about http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/teampractices/2014-April/000370.html [16:24:03] 	 [teampractices] What would you miss in a Phabricator environment? [16:24:12] 	 Woould you recommend me to forward to wikitech-l? [16:24:30] 	 I don't want be too pushy. Then again I do want to be pushy indeed. (I hope you know the feeling) ;) [16:24:35] <andre__>	 :) [16:24:57] <Nemo_bis>	 Hi [16:25:02] 	 Yes, I think forwarding is a good idea [16:25:13] <andre__>	 qgil: I think it would be good, yeah [16:25:17] 	 Hello Nemo_bis :) [16:25:32] <andre__>	 At first I wondered if the message makes it clear enough what kind of feedback we are interested in, on the other hand we're now interested in any feedback anyway :) [16:25:50] 	 ok, I will forward [16:26:10] 	 I'm not sure about the type of feedback here. I just want to be able to say in 6 weeks "Hey, everybody had a chance to... " :) [16:26:28] <andre__>	 heh, yeah [16:26:57] <Nemo_bis>	 Oh, present the topicf [16:27:01] 	 Alright, anything else about Project Management tools RfC? [16:27:15] 	 I think that's it [16:27:32] 	 good [16:27:41] 	 NEXT TOPIC aka PREVIOUS TOPIC :) [16:27:43] 	 Process to submit/review volunteer product manager/owner applications. A backlog of a dozen is known as of 2013. Cf. LCA proposal, application in bugzilla. [16:27:45] 	 Nemo_bis, [16:27:55] <Nemo_bis>	 Question is: is http://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/11/21/lead-development-process-product-adviser-manager/ still a thing? [16:28:07] <Nemo_bis>	 1) A wiki page documenting the thing was never created [16:28:20] <Nemo_bis>	 2) The process used to be "email Sumana" [16:28:33] 	 Nemo_bis: It never really took off, and was mostly put on hold indefinitely [16:28:41] <Nemo_bis>	 3) About a year ago it was announced that she was handing over to Maggie/LCA. But nothing was heard since then. [16:28:58] 	 We got a few emails but none of them were really good candidates [16:29:03] <Nemo_bis>	 guillom: ok; would be nice to document that somewhere [16:29:16] <Nemo_bis>	 good candidates expect wiki-like processes maybe? ;) [16:29:22] <Nemo_bis>	 (i.e. documented on wiki) [16:29:41] 	 Nemo_bis: No, I mean the ones we got were from outside the movement [16:29:47] <Nemo_bis>	 eek [16:30:03] 	 So they weren't super useful, unfortunately [16:30:12] 	 The tangible result of all that was https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Product_development [16:30:31] 	 We tried recruiting PM volunteers, we didn't succeed. [16:30:45] 	 My impression was/is that [16:30:45] <Nemo_bis>	 Yes, I remember that page [16:31:04] <Nemo_bis>	 A line telling the idea was abandoned would be nice in there (linked from the blog post) [16:31:15] 	 the product management role is not known or understood in the community [16:31:55] 	 and those who understand the role from the outside of the community volunteer mostly when they have some interest in being hired as WMF product managers [16:32:15] 	 this means that either way, it is hard to get long term PM volunteers [16:32:25] 	 Nemo_bis: I'm not sure it's officially abandoned. We still get some emails (mostly sumana) and they're invited to write a discovery report (they're mostly outsiders) [16:32:40] 	 And additional problem is that, unlike coding, triaging, etc, it is very difficult to define PM microtasks [16:33:03] <Nemo_bis>	 guillom: Then it's even more needed to document it [16:33:13] 	 To onboard a volunteer PM, they need to get deep in one project in order to be able to even say anything about it [16:33:36] <Nemo_bis>	 qgil: a microtask can be to triage one feature request; translate it into a user story, distinguish requirements from optional stuff, and the like perhaps? [16:34:03] 	 Nemo_bis, yes, perhaps https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Product_development#For_starters:_triaging_enhancement_requests_25221  :) [16:34:06] <andre__>	 I once had a longer chat with somebody who was interested in PMing in the Wikimedia Bugzilla field, but I had problems myself to define how this would *effectively* help me :-/ [16:34:12] <Nemo_bis>	 One problem is that on mediawiki.org we don't have anything about user stories etc. There is a disconnect between what we document for bugzilla etc. and what is required for WMF development [16:34:27] 	 but even there I had to fight for the concept, so I ended up focusing in something else [16:34:44] <Nemo_bis>	 qgil: sorry for stealing your idea; I did indeed read that thread ;) [16:34:52] <Nemo_bis>	 but I had forgotten [16:34:59] 	 (me too) :) [16:35:37] 	 Anyway, what we can do now is to add a task to our quarterly goals to wrap up this properly [16:36:21] <Nemo_bis>	 qgil: to be honest, I think you started that thread a bit incorrectly :) it was hard to understand what you were up to [16:36:31] <Nemo_bis>	 "acting on a bug" is a bit generic [16:36:48] <Nemo_bis>	 "translating to user story" is something specific (may be useful or not; dunno) [16:36:58] 	 Nemo_bis, https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Engineering_Community_Team/Planning/2014/Q2#Quim [16:37:07] 	 (I will have more goals than that) :) [16:37:15] <Nemo_bis>	 wonderful [16:37:30] 	 We can continue the discussion in that page [16:37:41] 	 Meaning https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Product_development [16:37:50] 	 Anything else? [16:37:54] 	 oh, nice page qgil [16:37:59] 	 "Have a public bug day approximately once per month." [16:38:03] 	 yay, I missed those! sweet! [16:38:33] 	 I'm very happy to see you like it  :) [16:39:10] 	 odder, Nemo_bis, make sure you don't miss the 105% transparency template guillom added at the end of https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Engineering_Community_Team [16:39:21] 	 Alright, anny other topic? [16:39:23] 	 yuvipanda, [16:39:24] <andre__>	 odder, that's on my list to pick up again, yeah :) [16:39:31] 	 hi qgil! [16:39:50] 	 (That template is incomplete but I plan to complete it this month) [16:40:01] 	 so when people usually ask me 'how can I get involved' and they are already well into OSS, I just tell them 'pick a bug and fix it' [16:40:17] 	 but of late there seems to be a lot of times when 'things that need fixing' are in Trello than in BZ [16:40:30] 	 and those aren't really discoverable plus there is the default-no-community-comments issue. [16:41:07] 	 so now when people ask me 'what can I do to help with mobile apps?' I have no proper answer, and usually just tell them to poke qgil and figure out something else :D :( [16:41:17] 	 nice :P [16:41:20] 	 is this something that might go away with One Tool To Rule Them All [16:41:28] <andre__>	 How many bugs in Bugzilla have an "easy" keyword for Mobile Apps? [16:41:31] 	 Hopefully! [16:41:32] 	 or is this something that needs fixing in other ways? [16:41:41] <andre__>	 (I can't solve the Trello vs Bugzilla problem though) [16:41:42] 	 andre__: there aren't really much bugs in BZ for apps. [16:41:52] 	 qgil: if there are no more issues, can I mention a task guillom was supposed to have done already? :-) [16:41:53] 	 andre__: and also most actual discussion happens in trello [16:41:53] 	 boards [16:41:55] 	 and not BZ [16:42:13] 	 odder, once we have finished with yuvipanda topic, please [16:42:30] <andre__>	 yuvipanda: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Annoying_little_bugs#Mobile_Apps links to three Mobile Apps Bugzilla tickets that I would point newbies to [16:42:33] <andre__>	 just fyi [16:42:50] * yuvipanda looks� [16:43:26] 	 In the long term, and if we go for Phabricator or any OneToolToRuleThemAll, a bug, a task, a story, etc, probably are going to be the same, in the same place. [16:43:40] 	 right [16:44:46] 	 The comments closed issue is even a separate thing.... [16:45:21] 	 But the bottom line is: if you want new external contributors you ned to mark tasks for them, and let them find them, participate in them [16:45:38] 	 qgil: so I found out you can turn it on per board, but no global settings (commenmts on Trello) [16:45:55] 	 qgil: right, so now(?) there seems to be a split between 'external contributors' and 'internal contributors' and different workflows... [16:46:03] 	 If you want to find tasks for newbie but your team makes it difficult, you can start complaining within your team, as there is not much ECT can do apart from recommending practices [16:46:15] 	 hmm, right. [16:46:32] 	 so I'll just get people to file bugs in BZ instead of Trello, and depend fully on Bugello [16:47:06] 	 qgil: is bugello part of ECT's reccomendations? [16:47:47] 	 In my books, an open source software development team without bugs marked as EASY to be picked by new contributors has a deeper problem... [16:48:24] <andre__>	 I can only to some extend do the housekeeping for teams - e.g. I can only sometimes judge which bugs are "easy" to solve for a newcomer. [16:48:33] <andre__>	 plus I tag them in Bugzilla, not in some other tools in use. [16:48:46] 	 yuvipanda, the ECT is running an RfC about PM tools, mainly to solve the current divide Trello, Mingle, Bugzilla, mediawiki.org... [16:49:05] 	 right. [16:49:24] 	 so I guess that's the 'actual' solution, and I should just wait for that in the long term [16:49:28] 	 and encourage things to be in BZ in the mid term [16:49:45] 	 yuvipanda, summary: what *you* can do now is to make sure that new volunteers asking can click the link at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Annoying_little_bugs#Mobile_Apps and find interesting stuff [16:49:59] <andre__>	 yeah, that would be helpful [16:50:01] 	 hmm, alright [16:50:04] 	 If that link doesn't provide anything, qgil / ECT will not solve the problem either [16:50:06] 	 I'll keep that in mind :) [16:50:08] 	 ok! [16:50:11] <andre__>	 adding the "easy" keyword [16:50:28] 	 Good. Are we all set on this topic? [16:50:33] * yuvipanda nods� [16:50:41] 	 ty everyone [16:50:46] 	 odder, your turn [16:50:50] 	 odder wanted to shame me into doing something I think :) [16:51:14] 	 yes! where's Tech News on MW.org :-) [16:51:23] 	 This is a good venue to project some shame on ECT members :P [16:51:32] 	 I know I didn't add the tags for the past few issues [16:51:37] 	 Ahah! That's on my todo list for this month :) [16:51:45] 	 Just forgot about them :-( [16:51:55] * qgil checks...� [16:52:07] 	 !technews [16:52:10] 	 heh. [16:52:12] 	 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Engineering_Community_Team/Planning/2014/04#Guillaume [16:52:25] 	 So at the latest it'll be done by the end of the month [16:52:37] 	 But I'll try to do it this week [16:52:39] 	 ^^^^ guillom says The Truth [16:52:53] 	 (I wanted to point the URL) [16:53:02] 	 Good. Anything else? 8 minutes to go. [16:53:07] 	 7 [16:53:45] 	 guillom: Good; I'd only like to have this automated, as I'm probably never going to remember to add the tags manually [16:54:05] 	 odder: the tags should be added in the boilerplate [16:54:28] 	 odder: usually I add them because they're not copied from the previous issue [16:54:49] 	 guillom, I have a question about process. Is there an easy way to get a log out of a meeting at #wikimedia-office, other than copy&paste etc? [16:55:12] 	 qgil: copy-paste of the log is all I know [16:55:37] 	 wouldn't meetbot work? [16:55:39] 	 maybe marktraceur will teach me another IRC lesson now... [16:55:46] 	 you'd need to set it up first, I believe. [16:55:51] * marktraceur waves� [16:55:55] 	 (And yes, there's even a bug for that.) [16:55:55] 	 qgil: What do you need? [16:55:57] * yuvipanda particles� [16:55:59] 	 odder, yes, but we (I) decide not to use it this time to keep it more casual [16:55:59] 	 odder: we decided not to use it today [16:56:07] 	 Oh, no. [16:56:10] 	 There's nothing easy [16:56:11] 	 oh, that's what happens when one is late :-) [16:56:41] 	 Alright, then perhaps I'll start meetbot next time, just not bothering as much about #link #info etc. [16:56:51] 	 thank you everybody [16:57:09] <andre__>	 Thanks! [16:57:20] 	 Thank you again for an interesting conversation connected to our lack of prior planning of this meeting (hmmm, perhaps there is a connection here) [16:58:04] <andre__>	 Lack of planning? Where? :P [16:58:21] 	 ENDOFMEETING