Talk:Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements

Limit the screen width
I think the worst one can do is limit the screen width... I's far less relaxed for reading and a waste of screen space. Switched back to the previous version. 213.219.163.24 23:41, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello! I'd like to invite you to read this page: Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements/Features/Limiting content width. There we've documented our arguments for this change. If you prefer the full width, you may use the button in the bottom right corner of the screen, too. I hope this solves the issue! SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 17:57, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I have a somewhat related question. I see that there is a toggle on the MediWiki site in the bottom right corner to adjust width, which is great... but I don't see it on my own install using Vector 2022 (MediaWiki version 1.39.3). Is there something I'm missing in order to make that visible? I don't have the "Enable limited width mode" option in user preferences either. Thanks in advance for any insight you can offer. Adoxtater (talk) 02:29, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * My install of MediaWiki also does not have the full width toggle button. Fanra (talk) 10:39, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
 * If you're not seeing the limited-width toggle, it might be because the browser window is too small. Currently, per T326887 the limited width toggle is only available when the browser window is bigger than 1400px wide. JDrewniak (WMF) (talk) 17:57, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I have dual monitor and stretched the window to run the full width of both and still no toggle button. However, on the mediawiki site it does show up even on a single monitor. Unless, of course, they're running some other code that makes it happen I guess. Adoxtater (talk) 22:21, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I have designed an alternative toggle button that I feel better represents the functionality... and emailed it to answers@wikimedia.org. Is there a better way to share it?? 68.83.135.144 18:24, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I have designed an alternative toggle button that I feel better represents the functionality... and emailed it to answers@wikimedia.org. Is there a better way to share it??
 * Disallowing me to upload... AlanGochin (talk) 18:31, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

The new layout looks horrible
No offence, but I created an account just because the new format is badly designed.

Hello,

I study education and am in deep shock about the new wikipedia layout. Why the fuck do UI designers think removing borders and cramping everything into togglers actually makes things better? Like who the fuck sparked that trend? Apple?

What used to look like an encyclopaedia now looks like a white wall of simply nothing. There no longer seems to be any visual (like actually visuable) organization of a page beyond the paragraphs.

It isn't just that there aren't any visible borders anymore, there also is no contrast whatsoever and the text flickers while scrolling! It horrid and counterintuitive as fuck, because it makes your eye get lost and is utterly immemorable and thus fails to fulfill the basic criteria of visual educational material.

Get education experts when designing the UI next time. This is shameful.--2A02:908:966:63E0:E94E:DAB1:D3A:483 12:55, 21 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I totally agree with your comment! I have no idea how someone may break so much the user experience as they did. I haven't been logged to wikipedia for more than a decade, but had to, to choose some older variant of visual style, to even usefully read an article. A shame on them, a shame! How come they have not tested it before release. Sslukt (talk) 15:11, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Small correction, they did test it before release (and I hated it then too), but couldn't figure out how to put it into words. The OP states it excellently. Wiki joedirt (talk) 23:16, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Same! I haven't logged in for 7 years, but now had to, just to change the layout.. why do you even need to log in for that? makes no sense. P3rttiz (talk) 14:30, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree, but it's not just here. The entire Web seems to be going through a phase of ugly and stark being considered design statements. I do hope it passes quickly. 74.115.78.80 15:28, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Absolutely agree. All the illustrations have been reduced to postage stamps. It looks fine on a phone, but is utterly unusable on a computer screen. The aesthetics have been trashed along with the functionality. The web is a visual experience and Wikipedia has just died... 2001:8003:D40E:7E00:ACDF:D45C:10E0:7BF4 17:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree. Some websites tend to change themselves radically (e.h. IMDb) when old version is working just fine. Gevorg89 (talk) 17:29, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree, the new-look looks extremely unorganized, but at least you can switch back to the old one... Telltemmne (talk) 18:54, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Certainly, the new layout looks utterly dreadful, good thing we can change back to either vector legacy or monobook. Interlacing (talk) 20:02, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree. Clear-cut downgrade. Forresthopkinsa (talk) 21:12, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I've been using Wikipedia since day 1 and I had to create my first account today just so I can change the layout to the old format. What a HORRIBLE redesign.  It's looks like garbage on a widescreen laptop monitor.  Why is there so much white space on the left side?  Is wikipedia for Zoomers on iPhones now, like TikTok or some other garbage?  This is the worst website redesign I've ever seen, including that one that Digg did like 12 years ago that made literally everyone leave the site for Reddit.  Just BAD BAD BAD. 76.104.139.237 21:31, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * so fucking true man 71.226.203.33 23:41, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
 * It is nothing but worse. Jacob Agar (talk) 21:33, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I actually came here to say the same thing; the new UI isn't just ugly, but it's genuinely painful to use on desktop, to the point of being borderline-unusable. It was clearly designed with mobile users in mind, despite the fact that, afaik, the overwhelming majority of editors prefer desktop; I say this as someone who does mobile edits from time to time. I don't want to have to log in every time I use Wikipedia just so I can even navigate a page! Change it back! Birdn4t0r (talk) 22:02, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * You can get the mobile UI on desktop already with .m in the url. I just switched from the mobile view that had opened up by accident to desktop view and I think the layout is even worse on desktop than the actual Mobile UI. This style is not ready for prime time and should in no way have become the default.
 * The UI getting old and stale is worse than being actively bad.
 * Shadowmaster13 (talk) 08:26, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Count me in on that one: Huge waste of screen real estate, on my 1920 pixel width screen only half is used by content and it would not be more if resize the browser window to full screen. The article-outline was separated from the article, no visible connection between article and pictures/graphics, way too light UI overall, languag switcher anywhere and search-field moved anywhere else.
 * Seems like it was designed to fuck up and bug out the user. No real user experience while designing this was in mind i think. 2A02:8109:9D40:1F1C:E475:3EC8:7B5E:28CE 23:34, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I made an account with wikipedia just to switch it back. It's not so much the design is horrible, but it looks exactly like the mobile layout and I don't use the mobile layout for a reason. I don't entirely unsupport the idea of re-optimizing Wikipedia for modern UI (not that I wouldn't switch it back anyways lol) but doing it in a way that just feels like copying the mobile format is so weird. 47.146.190.208 02:16, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
 * While I disapprove of the profane language used in this comment, I have to echo the sentiment. The amount of white space in the new layout is so jarring it makes articles absolutely dreadful to read on a desktop display. Does Wikipedia even care about how resoundingly negative the feedback to this new design has been? 2600:6C44:747F:98D5:E9C9:BDC3:1868:6F99 03:30, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Uninspired redesign, neither better looking or more functional, so I have no idea what was the intention of whoever came up with this. There is no way someone beta tested this because it would not have gone live.
 * I have no idea why someone thought the interface needs a change in the first place since it was optimized for a dictionary, but on top of that, it made no sense to take away the access to international versions and Wikimedia on the side which represent additional references. It would make more sense to make the old one default and offer the new one as option. 2600:1700:20C1:4920:B8D9:705C:D86C:BF8F 04:31, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm mostly reply just to increase the number of replies so they see we don't like this; while the profanity is unnecessary I wholeheartedly agree that desktop websites should have desktop layouts and mobile layouts should stay on mobile. The same complaints were made when Windows 8 came out and when Facebook did it I stopped browsing their website on desktop entirely.  At the very least you can change it back in the preferences menu (although that's only available to those of us who've made accounts), unlike Facebook and the new Steam Library (which is not that new anymore). Jacob p12 (talk) 05:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Completely agree. Vector 2022 sucks due to clearly very little thought being put into it. Excelsiorsbanjo (talk) 05:51, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I literally went to the step of creating an account just so I could complain about (and hopefully get rid of) the horrific new UI. I've seen better web design in simple html pages from the 90s. --118.149.76.228 10:27, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
 * My main issue with it was that the text was not wide enough and it was harder to read. Glad there's a button at the bottom to make the width fluid. 5.15.71.147 12:06, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
 * This mostly fixed it for me, thanks for that!
 * While I'm here, my suggestion is for a border to be added to the edges of the container. The white blends into the grey too easily and it is a bit disorientating. The border helps the user find the edge of the page/container, and it also has the benefit of looking more authoritative. Moissanite (talk) 19:59, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * You're totally right. I also had to make an account to select the proper UI. This is clearly some change pushed by some kid who thinks JavaScript frameworks are the best just because some marketing move told him so. Maybe some company author of the framework donated money to Wikipedia to make this change. Otherwise it makes no sense and it just makes Wikipedia worse. Microph123 (talk) 12:45, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe the real purpose of the change was to get us all to make accounts.... 66.214.69.101 01:46, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thıs is absolutely true, there was no need for a resign as the older one was perfectly fine and the blank white space in the sides is horrid and a waste of space. Klad 2 (talk) 13:28, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
 * The new layout sucks so bad. While I think that the old layout looked kinda ugly, I definitely prefer the old one, because it's much easier to read with the old layout. Old is gold, especially on Wikipedia 109.247.106.208 13:45, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I think maybe if they added a dark mode it wouldn't suck as much though. 109.247.106.208 13:47, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
 * At least it helped for user count, I had to create an account to revert to the old appearance. 2A02:AA13:7200:8A80:B8E5:F3A9:623C:352D 17:54, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Can't agree more. I don't know if it was their intention to confuse people at first, and then force them to make an account to switch back from the horrible redesign, a la Reddit style. Terrible decision. 62.167.140.205 18:40, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
 * this is what i came here to say! the only reason i created my user account is so i could revert to the old design! the new one makes me want to vomit. Jakeyounglol (talk) 23:31, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I can only agree. The new design is pretty much a compilation of every awful UI design from the past decade.  It's genuinely awful and makes the experience actively worse.  It really, really, really needs to be rolled back.  And I'm hoping WMF isn't going to dig in their heels about this.  Because the old design is flat out superior. 2600:1700:1471:2550:2195:BD59:6E8E:AB0C 01:29, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Couldn't agree more, the new look is atrocious and an unbelievable waste of space. This is a perfect example of attempting to fix something that isn't broken. ElaenaS (talk) 01:47, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I've been trying to give Vector 2022 a chance over the last few days, and what I really don't like so far is how dead it feels. Like, this lack of visible page organization, as you pointed out, makes it very dull. All this white without much contrast actually makes my eyes uneasy. That is my experience so far. RoadTrain (talk) 02:37, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I too am chiming in to say I made an account for the first time in 30 years of using wikipedia to revert to the old format. The new vector is atrocious to look at and makes reading a chore. The old layout was engaging and helped you intake information. Thats part of the reason people could get lost in wikipedia it was so easy to read. 2603:8080:A704:5A81:A800:FCEE:7F61:1D8F 10:19, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I created an account just to voice my distaste for the new layout. WHY is the width limited??? I get that to some it may be easier to read, but for me, with a 27" screen, I now have to scroll quite bit to read the same content. I MUCH rather read longer lines than be forced to scroll every couple seconds.
 * The previous design was clean and compact. Some may say cluttered, but really everything was at your fingertips and super convenient.. Like an airplane. The new design hides things behind annoying menus, and the TOC being hid behind toggles is REALLY DUMB. Now I can't see the outline of a page without guessing and randomly clicking on toggles?? WTF?! The new design also wastes ~2/3rds of horizontal space on a 27" monitor which looks really goofy. It feels so sterile, and like a clone of other wastelands of the modern web. Ugh. Frustrating. At least with an account, now I can revert the look. Jammnrose (talk) 17:56, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Adding my voice to those who had to create an account just to go back to the old layout. The new one is just awful. Hargan2 (talk) 22:48, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Ive always donated to wiki since i graduated college. I will never give them a cent ever again. Same thing with mozilla and mdn. Its like they used the same brain dead designer Randt1234 (talk) 23:39, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't normally comment on talk pages, but good god is this new UI design the most useless one I've ever seen. Nobody asked you to hide everything behind unintuitive buttons, it was working just fine before you fiddled with it. Hobtan (talk) 23:49, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Have to agree that this new redesign looks very bad. Please revert it!! 83.254.212.105 23:53, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * This is garbage.. I can't resize the content in a widescreen monitor to get full viewing width. Who thinks this is actually more usable ? Psiberfunk (talk) 03:21, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm chiming in as a UX designer–this is shameful and I'm so very tired of "new" UI improvements just turning out to be hiding functionality behind toggle screens. Enuui (talk) 06:11, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I've used the new layout for two weeks. I'm switching back to the old look because it displays the article in a wider column for reading and editing, because it doesn't have a right-nav bar for Tools that I have to hide, and because it uses gray backgrounds to guide my eyes. PRRfan (talk) 16:52, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Couldn't agree more. HATE the new layout. There is so much white space it almost makes me sick. I don't know how web developers get the idea that they know better than I do about what size I want my window to be. I set it to a given size, some smart a**e developer sets 5" borders other content! How arrogant is that. If I wanted it that size I could easily do so. Guess what, I didn't. IanKennedy1965 (talk) 17:08, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed. New format is harder to navigate, particularly on the desktop. Many articles are actively more difficult to read, between the increased white space on the page and the way the text boxes have been 'streamlined'. Not sure if anyone in authority at Wikipedia is reading these comments, but you really dropped the ball on this redesign. 128.164.30.116 19:01, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
 * If I want to read on my phone, I grab my phone. Why do developers everywhere think that a desktop website should look like a phone website. This new appearance may disappear.
 * Why must everything always be hidden for an empty appearance?
 * More search and click work for the same result. Like logging in. To create an account one click. To log in two clicks. Willem ter Haar (talk) 21:12, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
 * The new UI looks awful. It's so bad it made me come here to let my voice be heard. Please change it back to the previous version while you come up with something better ☹ 71.208.54.176 22:56, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Like many, I have created an account to switch back to the old style. Maybe this was the idea? The new design is woeful. What's the point of having a large monitor if you put all the text in a ribbon down the middle, with huge amounts of white space on each side. Horrible. 81.107.32.77 23:16, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree. I thought the site was broken at first, then came to find out that this was done on purpose.
 * If nothing else, it pushed me to figure out how discussion pages work. But I'm deeply not in favor.
 * I'm not sure where all of the content on the left side of the page went. Is there a migration tutorial? 2600:1700:EB0:3790:D07F:D785:80DD:AC07 01:28, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I thought i was on the mobile version then found out this was actually a new layout. This is just all around dumb. DarmaniLink (talk) 08:56, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I will stop donations immediately if this is NOT changed back to default. The new "theme" is total shit and I will have NONE of it. This is not the reason I donate money to Wikipedia. Whoever made this decision should have been ousted yesterday. Revert it back to the previous DEFAULT and MAKE people choose the crappy 2022 (genX-edition) if they feel compelled. Newlayoutsucksass (talk) 10:58, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree. As one may guess, I made an account just to be able too change the look. Please don't make non registered users suffer, they're people too! WikiP&#39;sNew2023UIisTRASH (talk) 20:20, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * While you’re welcome to voice your opinions/feedback about wiki functions, please do not take it into account usernames. Tropicalkitty (talk) 20:33, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Had to make an account just to go back to the old design where the content isn't squished into a tiny section just to make room for whitespace 108.31.241.8 20:26, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I completely agree!! I thought that the CSS template was not loading properly to start with, then that facepalm moment.
 * I am surprised because they think MOBILE MODE is a must, that there wasn't a forced DARK MODE as well.
 * Even the Skin Appearance Preferences does NOT SAVE EITHER, Seriously WTF Shealladh (talk) 10:47, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
 * totally agree, horrible UI, but fortunately you can change it in preferences, what i encourage you to do, then they will know in theirs A/B testing that users actually really prefer old layout. 176.221.123.255 12:10, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree that the new design isn't ideal. I am most frustrated by the large borders/sidebars on the sides of desktop monitors. Why squish all content into the middle of the screen and leave these massive blank rectangles on the side? Less information on the screen at a given time = bad, in my opinion. That is my main gripe... I like the idea of a sticky table of contents, but I am too jarred by the sudden change in page size relative to monitor resolution/aspect ratio. Donlad26 (talk) 15:50, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I too can only agree. The MASSIVE amount of whitespace introduced is a complete backwards step that I cannot believe passed to the end. 2A01:4B00:8786:D00:9CCA:920:18FE:893D 19:40, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I was using the "?useskin=vector?useskin=vector" thing to force the old design, but that stopped working it seems. So here I am, a glorious, new registered user.  My username conveys my feelings on the matter. Yournewdesignsuuuucks (talk) 19:41, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
 * 100% agree. At first I thought I'd accidentelly opened the mobile version, but then to my shock realised that someone at Wikipedia apparently thought it was a good idea to make this the design of the main version of Wikipedia. This should be reverted asap and the person who greenlit this should be fired. Luckily there is an option to switch back to the previous design, but the user experience should be good out of the box without having to manually change some settings first. -- Cyberhopser (talk) 18:35, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh wow what a worseification.... i hope next time they beg you for donation they receive at most only 1/4 of the usual, clearly they have to much money to waste.
 * - Language selection, much more inefficient
 * - New right side menu distracting from the article
 * - Horrible, completley unusable new TOC
 * - Switching from a design usable at all resolutions (usually i even preferred it on mobile, as i didn't like the castrated mobile version aswell) to a fixed width is a massive step backwards too. (As others noted already: lots of wasted space) BorisSapulu (talk) 18:39, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
 * It is quite awful, and I created an account to revert to the old layout. 198.102.103.103 01:25, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * echoing here the new ui is eye bleed inducing i feel as if i will get a headache looking at it for too long. the cramped appearence makes reading anything a chore and makes things ugly with the spacing what is with that planing to add huge banner ads? the only reason i made an account was to revert this change will likely cause some people to leave if its not fixed this should be an optional theme not the defult your going to have infogalactic eatting your lunch. change for the sake of change is never good, if you need your ui design team to earn their keep then have them work on optional skins for the end user to select. the mobilefication of the net needs to stop theres a reason .m exists use it. Bobboter (talk) 05:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I made an account specifically to save my preferences regarding the appearance. I'd rather check wikipedia on my phone than go through the 2022 layout. Awful. VangyTuft (talk) 08:24, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I do agree with you - like I agree 100% with everything you said - but you can change back to the original layout, so I'm not too upset. I don't really see them taking away the legacy layout either. 2604:3D09:A977:3600:5DEE:6E28:6C0:7871 11:14, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Yep. I actually registered on Wikipedia just to have the preferences option to switch to the old layout. It's just amazing how bad the new one is. Yegork1978 (talk) 19:29, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
 * About the only 'positive' is a separate TOC, and even that is rather badly implemented. It should be the topmost left table, separated from other menus and options, aligned with the article. Vinner19 (talk) 21:35, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I totally agree!! I can live with if design is not too nice-looking, but I hate when it's unpractical. And this new look is just too horrible to use. I often switch languages, sometime even those I don't talk or read, only now its impossible task to do it quickly with that stupid select box, if there are twenty languages. Moreover, I have to log in in each language to set old layout, that is so very annoying. I could write quite a list what else is useless, but I see others wrote it down already. BeaBeta (talk) 23:38, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes. I do not understand the disregard for users screen space. I purchased a large monitor only to find that 'designers' throw away large parts of it's space. An wiki page is not there to look beautiful (not that you could call the new design beautiful! but at the end of the day I suppose that's a matter of taste.) It's form should start with and follow function; it's there first of all to provide information, and options at your fingertips. Both are reduced significantly.
 * I am very glad to be able to switch back! 2A02:A46A:A337:1:14E3:853E:3CB2:6782 09:02, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
 * The new layout is EXTREMELY inaccessible for people with disabilities in my opinion.
 * The text being all smashed together is harder to read, the white space is distracting, and the god awful hamburger menu requires extra movements and clicks to open. Everything is so unintuitive, frustrating, and makes my head hurt. I imagine people who need screen readers are having an even harder time than I am using this site. People shouldn't have to make an entire account just so they can use an educational website without suffering.
 * Wikipedia 1000% did not have people with disabilities in mind when working on this redesign and approving it, as seems the case with most websites who push for the atrocity that is "modern" web design. I wonder if Wikipedia realises they aren't required to follow the the trend of having an ugly website that's terrible to use.  Azethes (talk) 09:11, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I think it depends on the person. I have disabilities and prefer the new layout. The previous desktop version looked to me like an overwhelming wall of text. Each line was so long that I couldn't keep track of what I was reading, and constantly moving my eyes from left to right across that wide field caused fatigue. Screen readers helped me maintain focus, but I would just opt to browse on my phone instead.  The new layout provides short, digestible lines of text, and the white space creates a cleaner, focused appearance. I do agree that modern web design sucks, but I find this revamp to be helpful. Otherwise, I would love to use MonoBook!
 * I'm sorry you're having a difficult time with the new layout. It looks like many people are in the same boat. I'm glad we are able to toggle between different layouts in order to figure out what works best for us. All I can say is that I'm thankful to have the new layout as an option. TheCowboyPirate (talk) 08:39, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The only good thing about the redesign is the TOC sliding down with us on the left as we scroll the article. Everything else is bad. The one thing we could have used is a dark mode and we're being told it *was* technically impossible to do, has recently become possible, but won't be done regardless. I've never heard anything like it. 81.100.55.96 00:26, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
 * THANK YOU. It looks SO bad dude. This needs to be reverted ASAP. Thank god they at least made it easy to change back. Sleampy (talk) 23:30, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree. Created a Wikimedia account today to change my theme preference, lol Jessveness (talk) 07:35, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I am so glad I am not the only one that thinks the new layout is god awful! I thought I was going insane when I was google searching "new wikipedia layout" and all the top results were news articles with headlines like "Wikipedia gets its first makeover in over a decade… and it’s fairly subtle" (link). I was so happy when I found out that I could get rid of the layout by logging into my account. Sockbucketfrance (talk) 08:35, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Definitely agree. New look is a piece of shit. Hire some UX designers! and think twice - it looks ugly on the huge PC screens! 213.210.175.85 12:05, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Couldn't agree more. It is absolutely horrible. 213.160.161.52 21:56, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I was trying to save my appearance preferences to one of the older themes, and it straight up will not apply. Every time I re-visit a wikipedia page it is set to vector 2022. Is there a fix for this? I've already cleared my cache/cookies. CapSAR (talk) 03:40, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree! this needs to be revised back to the older verson by default. Webpages need to be functional, and not minimal. The new layout is not even optimized to view more text! Haldardhruv95 (talk) 05:57, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
 * i fully agree!
 * been using wikipedia for all my life and this new ui is a major shock, whos fucking idea was it to change it without a poll or something? Zekromisblack (talk) 00:56, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I am more worried if it gets worse, like when they start introducing a fixed sticky nav toolbar in the next design (I thought they listened in 2020) and ram it in yer face constantly as you scroll the page where it is in the way and distraction.
 * I am totally against it. It should be down the user what they want to see constantly on their viewing and not a few people who think they want it stuck constantly against their wishes in the guise that it will help and the users are somewhat stupid and confused.
 * They will loose my donations once they do that on Wikipedia. MrMobodies (talk) 02:45, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree, less intuitive, less effective real estate. Suggest making it optional, not default and seeing how many actually opt-in. Saucypuck (talk) 01:23, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Have to agree, unfortunately. While I don't have a flickering issue, the layout is absolutely terrible and seems to combine the worst of a desktop and mobile layout in one. Please go back to the previous default and save us from the weirdness of wasted space combined with restricted element sizes. There's no reason to make such a change here - sometimes something is just good and you should leave well enough alone. P.S.: it's not "subtle". Wolfbeast (talk) 08:19, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree! I made this account just to change to Vector legacy... I love you Wikipedia but this new layout has go to go! 178.55.41.49 10:04, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I would also like to express my discontent with the new layout. Like many people here, I've made a wikipedia account just to go back to the old theme. 79.186.222.249 17:26, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm a long time donator and small time contributor to wikipedia, and I add my voice to what appears to be hundreds of others concerning the layout change. It is incredibly cramped, counterintuitive and disorienting, and overall much worse than before. "Improvement" for the sake of improvement is a modern plague. Considering the overwhelmingly negative nature of the feedback I see here, why isn't this change reverted at once? Numero4 (talk) 06:49, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I know, why is it under desktop "improvements" Higuys153 (talk) 04:52, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I cannot claim to be an expert in editing Wiki pages, but as a retired academic I have a lifetime of reading journals in science. I'm now not too well and most of my Wikipedia-reading is done on a 15" laptop while sitting in a reciner chair.  I typically spend hours a day reading it.  I also take the trouble to donate for this :-)   I use Firefox and I have a large collection of bookmarks, which I normally keep visible on the LHS of the screen.  For a little  while I have noticed that the longer pages of Wikipedia have lost their valuable pale blue indexes, so useful because as you read parts of a page, the sections you have previously visited change colour.  Very recently I have discovered that if I close down my bookmarks view I see a sort of quasi contents list (with nothing of the precision of the old contents lists).  Also, there is stuff on the RHS that I hardly ever look at (was it ever there before?).
 * Today I have looked around and discovered this "skins" issue, and if the changes I am witnessing are anything to do with this, then I don't like it - AT ALL. The old American saying "If it ain't broke then don't fix it" comes to mind. I pretty much agree with all the above complaints and I think it's time Wikipedia did a "revert".  I note some commentators suggested that the new presentation should have been an option to opt into for a year or so; that would heve been much sounder treatment of us users.
 * At this point I have just gone to my desktop with its 24" screen an run up tabs showing the Vector 2022 and previous skins. To me it's no contest: lots of white space on the new skin, pleasant document-style layout on the old.  Anyway, as I now know how to view pages using the old skin, that's what I'll be doing. Bicyclic (talk) 16:51, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I see a SPAMMY FIXED HEADER here but thanks to this extension (CAN'T BELIEVE I expressed my concerns in 2020 to grant user a choice that I am at the liberties of browser extension like this one:
 * Chrome: Sticky Header Hider aka Fixed Header Fixer
 * Firefox:StickDucky
 * This page looks nicer
 * "Currently, many functionalities on wiki pages are only available to users at the top of the page."
 * NO I DON'T WANT THAT.
 * Main page:
 * "This becomes problematic on longer pages, when scrolling past the first few paragraphs means the user would need to scroll back up to access the tools and other resources again." I'd rather do that than have something slapped in my face constantly. Dont under stand how annoying that is". RUBBISH! Put on the side panel then.
 * If ANYTHING IS problematic it is having fixed nav toolbars and widgets rammed into my faced constantly and follows down the page as I scroll away from them totally unwanted and undneed and they are still there in the way and as a distraction.
 * "Our proposed method of addressing this is to make the site header “sticky” This means it stays fixed to the top of the screen (above the content) as you scroll up or down the page."
 * No I DON'T WANT THAT. That is NOT HELPFUL THAT IS ANNOYING.
 * It wasn't a problem before LEAVE IT ALONE.
 * Absolutely no regard for the preferences from users.
 * The side panels was fine as long as I can hide it. But when you start slapping things that span the top the follow down the page, unable to hide it that maybe unwanted by the user as in in the way, that is what I class SPAMMY BEHAVIOUR. Reminds me of the browser toolbars that came installed with flash player and adbobe web installers and also the so called "free games" last decade.
 * The tools above I see in this form that seems GOOD enough until you take them away and put them on the spammy toolbar that gets hidden by the extension.
 * Developer: "The users are very stupid and confused and don't know what they are doing, they are naturally born with a very low IQ level and low abilities which means they can't navigate websites and can be very challenging for them so a fixed header will help people in that it is always there if they want it or not which means it is quicker and easier to get to... lets plaster it everywhere for their own good."
 * No I don't want it. I want it left alone.
 * So far so good on the exisiting wikipedia. I don't sign inI just read articles. As soon as I see a fixed nav/header/toolbar on Wikipedia you can forgot the donations.
 * I do not have difficulty using it, I do however have great difficult navigating a website with unwanted fixed things that are in the way of the contents and serve as a distraction. instead of flowing with the rest of the page. MrMobodies (talk) 02:20, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The new look is awful, with far too much white space. Perhaps Wikipedia should provide users some simple control over the appearance. And perhaps browser makers could get together and incorporate some sort of "style" preference (eg. navigator.style="[compact|mobile|desktop|...]" then every web site could automatically provide multiple css choices accordingly. Unfortunately CSS has become grossly convoluted and overly complicated, as have the javascript intrusions. Really this whole UI mess needs a lot of cleaning up. 208.71.172.42 03:05, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * It looks like it was designed for mobile not desktop, absolutely terrible and unneeded change. I hope they're listening instead of burying their head in the sand until the criticism dies down then declaring it a success based on people giving up. Thenewdesignisterrible (talk) 07:15, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Replying to concur, the new layout is terrible and highly inaccessible. The design is completely inappropriate for Wikipedia. Freedom4U (talk) 03:33, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * the new layout is terrible on desktop, *especially* for a multilingual user like me 2601:600:C980:2DA0:80BF:252A:BF4:8EBC 12:08, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree, I hate everything about this new layout Muddiebuddie (talk) 04:09, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Had to switch back to Vector Legacy 2010 in Preference here:
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering Intrepid-NY (talk) 16:11, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
 * agreed. looks worse and harder to read 128.6.36.140 20:16, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed, Vector and in particular the left hand 'bookmark' or whatever it's called removes too much content. The previous version (2010) was much easier to read in my opinion. Can we improve without taking away too much of the content which the reader wants to read? Textualism (talk) 11:11, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed, I had to make an account just to get the old layout back.
 * For me the most annoying thing is that the language selector is hidden in the new version. As a multilingual user I usually read articles in all languages I can read to get the most of it. 88.115.148.22 07:18, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The only reason I made an account was to revert it to previous layout and provide feedback on how much I HATE this new layout.
 * It reminds me of when someone sends you a mobile link on desktop and the .m.wikipedia in the URL causes it to look poorly formatted with a bunch of useless white space. RevertToLegacyLayout (talk) 08:21, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree 2A00:23C5:DC80:6301:0:0:0:1083 16:00, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * As a 17-year-old Wikipedian, I completely agree. The new look (2022) is terrible. It is not acceptable to me. I went back to the "2010" look. Radek68  (dyskusja)  06:59, 27 April 2023 (UTC)  Radek68  (dyskusja)  06:59, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Came here to say the new layout looks horrible. Whose idea was this? 69.245.61.93 17:32, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Signed up just to agree how horrible the new layout is. I have a 2560x1440 display and the new design uses 1/3 of it. Why are we treating desktop sites like mobile sites. You HAVE a mobile site, mobile.wikipedia.org, use that for you vertical/skinny text display. Stop taking away my screen real estate, you are NOT fandom. Stop ruining your website experience. --Kinomora (talk) 21:30, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

It's growing on me. But there's always the option to stick with the old layout. I just got here by clicking through the "preferences" menu. PaulHammond (talk) 19:32, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Vector 2022 must die.

Agreed, I made an account just because i read you can change the layout back to the original and when the survey asked what reason i had for creating my account today and since it didn't allow me the option of telling them to delete this new layout i'm posting it here

I agree, the new design sucks. The one function I use as a multilingual person - changing language - has for some reason been hidden behind a drop down gadget. "More prominent" my ass, it's much less usable now than simply clicking on the language on the left side. --2A00:5500:80E8:AB00:0:0:0:100 18:01, 24 January 2023 (UTC)


 * This was the key problem that drove me to log in and setup preferences. Frequently change languages. Used to be a consistent annual donor, but clearly they don't need the money if there's budget to waste on removing all the functionality out of a UI that wasn't broken. Everyone who signed off on this, the whole way up the management chain should tender their resignation immediately. Dvulrich (talk) 20:30, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Fully agree with you! I don't get why websites that are LONG established and work perfectly fine feel the need to be..... *sigh* [record scratch, turns baseball around] HIP! With it! In with the crowd! Not like your parents! So don't frown! [end lame 90's nonsense that ad companies though was cool] They need to stop. They all need to stop. Pinkfluffyunicorns88 (talk) 03:29, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
 * It is more prominent. English is not my native language, but the majority of articles I read, are in English. Every now and then, I change between English, Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, and a few times in the past, even French. Heck, I've even looked at articles in German. I prefer the new drop-down in favour to the old list of languages. Now the languages are always in the same spot, there's no long list of text claiming attention when I don't need it, and most importantly: no more need for scrolling to change language. That was so annoying about the old design; having to scroll down.
 * And now that I'm here, I'd like to inform you that the old design was not perfectly functional. I've tried creating a dark mode skin on top of Vector, and that's a truly horrible experience. Technologically, the old Vector skin was terrible. And it was not built for the screens of today either.
 * I hope the redesign of Wikipedia can bring us a much easier experience for building custom skins. Imagine, a future with lots of skinning abilities. Where those that want thick borders get that, those that want no borders get that, you can freely change between light and dark modes without issues, etc. Andcraft (talk) 04:03, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * ad "That was so annoying about the old design; having to scroll down." - the hell... instead of short scroll down I have to scroll all the way up now and then click and scroll again...
 * what a symptomatic for all the "new, thin, clean, lightweight" hipsterish design... in the end, less information, worse navigation and more scrolling and clicking 213.220.196.10 14:01, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
 * There is even an RfC where they discussed returning Vector 2010 as the default. Of course in the end wiki guys just ignored everything said against the new design. "We did research and you argument is invalid."
 * Enforcing this view on non logged people is just bonkers. Tarkalak (talk) 09:17, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Totally agree. Vector 2022 is horrible. Full stop. Please at least do not make it default. I know how to revert it with or without an account (just use a browser add-on named ‘Redirector’ and write some rules), but the ugliness and the user hostility shown in this design are beyond understandable. Chu Tse-tien (talk) 22:22, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

I concur: this 2022 as a default is a horrible waste of page space. 99.73.36.110 01:43, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Same here. Not only doesn't it look like anything educational, it wastes space on any screen bigger than 8", and the stark whiteness leaves you lost in space. I switched back to the one with the book, that at least looks pretty. 92.200.175.206 20:36, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
 * The new layout of Wikipedia is horrible, we all know that at this point. But I noticed something entirely else. The English version of Wikipedia is downgraded with this Vector 2022 nonsense but the German and Russian Wikipedias use the superior old Vector 2010 layout. Yes this is true-you can check this right now if you don't believe me. I do not know Russian or German language, I was just clicking around to see what is going on with their layouts. So good for them and for English readers we get the bad user experience.
 * Why the team that works on this decided that the English readers and editors should be tortured with this new layout?! How and when the other non-english communities have negotiated to be spared and not suffer the Vector 2022 disaster??? They have their voice heard and opted out but we the English using community are second class citizens now? How the other communities managed to convince you and we fail when we say we do not like Vector 2022? 94.26.15.134 16:29, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed. This is a massive downgrade on anything but a small phone. Varixai (talk) 16:19, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Created an account just in order to keep reading in the legacy layout... The UX for a multilingual user is terrible, you need to click your way through some pointless language menu rather than just select the language from the box to the left (where you also instantly see in which languages the article is available). And besides, on a UHD screen 70% of the screen surface is displaying nothing... Why would you do that? That's what the mobile layout is for, isn't it? It can be safely assumed that desktop users are using horizontal displays, so why optimize for vertical displays?
 * I really hope that this way of design does not become the new standard. Wwlaa (talk) 22:48, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm making a wikipedia account just to get away from the waste of space.

Make an account? - Thank you, I didn't know about that. Vector legacy is really a more enjoyable experience. It's why people go to cinemas even though they can watch at home. What a difference. Changing the format for mobile is understandable but doesn't make sense for desktops.Preroll (talk) 16:21, 5 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Just another who thinks this 'new look' is nasty, harder to use, harder on the eyes, just plain annoying, effed up bs.  😨😡 Wikiwavy (talk) 17:24, 10 February 2023 (UTC)


 * This mess seriously undermines the credibility of Wikipedia -- as if Wikipedia didn't already have ENOUGH credibility problems.


 * The previous "skin" was clean, clear, matter-of-fact -- giving Wikipedia at least the appearance of being a no-nonsense reference -- and was far easier to use.


 * Where did the article's Table of Contents (ToC) go? It's no longer visible (unless you poke around and find the pop-up, which -- if it's a moderately long ToC -- scrolls off the screen, and is horribly awkward and frustrating to use.


 * I finally figured out I could undo the damage, at least when "I" view it, by making changes to the "Preferences" setting (I'm a Wikipedia "Veteran Editor," extensively certified computer professional, state-licensed educator in computers, and former award-winning web developer, so I should have been able to figure out a personal solution, but it was not obvious) -- and MOST ordinary (non-editor)  Wikipedia  visitors will have NO idea the option exists.


 * This screw-up is what happens when you let some amateur idiots make changes for the sake of change -- they'll "fix" what isn't broke, break it as a result, and then shout "Progress!"


 * Raises extremely serious questions about the leadership, governance and future of Wikipedia. Penlite (talk) 13:05, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
 * What do we have to do to get this eyesore reverted? It's honestly the worst change I've ever seen. Dyaluk08 (talk) 10:24, 26 February 2023 (UTC)


 * '''I finally figured out how to go back to the old look, or so I thought. Only works for the one page you are on. Surf to another page, ugly look is back. StyxinConn47 (talk) 18:05, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Wanted to add that taking the advise of someone at Wikipedia, I logged in and was able to set a preference to revert page format back to the old look, which I did immediately. I cannot stand the way they shoved all this empty space on the pages over to the left side, while the meat of the site takes up the right two thirds of the screen. But now when not logged in, the "[Hide]" switch above the wasted space won't even work. This is with Firefox V. 80 something. This is so crazy. StyxinConn47 (talk) 18:52, 17 March 2023 (UTC)


 * On the assumption that sheer numbers of comments do actually count for anything: The new style is indeed (I'm afraid) really horrible. Depressing to see Wikipedia get sucked in to the current fugly flatso-design fad (that I fervently hope will quickly go out of 'fashion' soon once everyone sees it for the emperor's new clothes that it is). Painfully searing white everywhere (the previous theme wisely used gentle off-whites and grey shades to elegantly put secondary UI areas into the background and make for a more relaxing reading experience). From an accessibility perspective the biggest loss for me is the lack of that good contrast and vertical line separator between the left hand menu and the main content area: now all just an endless sea of indistinguishable searing white, and, when I am reading, without those subtle but essential separation cues (and with an excess of horizontal whitespace that doesn't have the needed tight margins to even remotely work as a "newspaper column" substitute), my eye is irreversibly drawn to the left hand edge of the window at the end of Every Single Line, causing a real 'low level' brain 'glitch' in trying to read. Ugh! --Davecykl (talk) 21:42, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree, new design is horrible. I think the new design is very wrong way. We are in 2023, full HD, 4K, 8K, big screens, etc... why should we make narrower pages, websites??? Wiki has already responsible mobile version. For example many people are using 1920x1080 screens, in this case many pages with lists, columns with lot of information, images are broken now (I edit many of this). The left area is total empty and unused in most of the Wiki pages. And there is a big white gap on the right side of the Wiki pages also. What is the reason to make the content, the information so narrow??? Check out these pages with new and old design: I support to revert the narrow layout of the new design. OrionNimrod (talk) 10:30, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * As desktop computer user on Firefox, I agree with posters here about the new Vector 2022 design more difficult to navigate, less intuitive. For example, the index of sections in an article has disappeared in Vector 2022, and when I re-size browser, the index of section re-appears. Which (sub-genius) designer dreamt up this useless feature to inflict upon us?! Previously this index was static right below general summary. And so many other intuitive features/layout in Vector 2010 have now disappeared to make life so much harder for Wikipedia users. If Wikipedia is trying to lower readership with Vector 2022? Congratulations the Vector 2022 layout has soured my Wikipedia user experience that I think 3 times before clicking on any Wikipedia link now. Thank you Wikipedia for breaking was was NOT broken. Puffin10 (talk) 16:47, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It's narrower precisely because we have larger screens. If there were content on every part of the screen, without any margins, then people would have to constantly swivel their heads side-to-side. I have a 32-inch-monitor and I don't want to have to adjust the size of my entire web browser just to be able to read one website without straining my neck. Galactipod (talk) 13:35, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Just to add to the chorus of voices here - it's a bad new design, the last couple of defaults were both good. The new one's not without some silver linings, floating TOC is nice, but it's a very big downgrade overall. In particular the whitespace is an assault on the eyes and it's sad to see yet another website make this same mistake - an absolute cardinal sin of UI design in my book. I really hope it gets reverted back to Vector 2010 as default - I'm yet another IP user who now uses an account solely to avoid the redesign but as I use a VPN this is not exactly convenient. --AcumenDonor (talk) 10:59, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Everybody expressing oneself here (in a very respectful way...) is just having a basic reaction to a change.
 * Name ONE quality website that hasn't been shrinked in width?
 * You are talking about user experience, but you are talking about your own habit only: how can reading a sentence on a 50cm width is a good user experience?
 * It also solves one of the main layout issues by being accessible by any kind of screen shapes: before, every contributor was changing the image organisation according to his own device, never caring about what screen others could have. Now everybody has the same layout: how can this be a problem?... Daehan (talk) 12:59, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It's been two months. Maybe you could write it off as a reaction to change if it was two days in but the dust has settled and it's still not going down well. Personally I delayed posting (and missed the votes) precisely to not have a knee-jerk reaction, but my negative reaction is actually quite a bit stronger now than initially. I've definitely seen worse redesigns but decent ones, and even many bad ones, don't usually still rankle months later.
 * I'm not going to spend too long on the irony of saying "you are talking about your own habit only" and then immediately talking about your own preferences, but I will point it out.
 * While we're talking subjectivity - my display is 50cm across, I have my web browser at full screen and, yes, I prefer reading like that and yes, subjectively, that's a good user experience. In contrast the ~60 characters per line that's often posited as the optimum line length is nigh-on unreadable for me on a monitor, though fine in print. I don't know how solid the evidence is that this is any kind of optimum (I'm very sceptical given how vague the usual source given is) but it certainly isn't a universal optimum!
 * Fortunately the new layout isn't quite as bad as that but I personally never experienced the issues you had with the old layout (not to say they don't exist, but they're clearly not that major) and think the old layout was better at accommodating different tastes and was therefore a better default. Especially given logged-out users can't set layout preferences with cookies. --AcumenDonor (talk) 15:28, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * As a person with a 32-inch-monitor, the whitespace is lovely. The content is exactly where it's comfortable for me to look: in the middle of the screen. The alternative is constantly swiveling my head side-to-side and straining my neck. Galactipod (talk) 13:42, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * As a person with 24 inch monitor im mad when someone wasted screen space that i have paid for. And i really don't like hidden language menu, it adds one more click. 89.64.124.218 10:06, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Dark Mode
Make any theme with native Dark Mode. Time for filling everything around with any color, on condition that it is "white", has passed.

Seregadushka (talk) 21:45, 7 November 2022 (UTC)


 * someone had a decree of the Ministry of Health of the United Kingdom on reducing the brightness of monitors. I can't find the link. The savings were measured in hundreds of millions of F (reduction of electricity consumption, equipment resource, treatment of eye diseases, payment of sick leave, ...). It's time for Wiki to listen to this. Seregadushka (talk) 00:26, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Native dark mode is necessary for global environmental friendliness and for a better experience.
 * It reduces power consumption when using OLED displays.
 * Also, white screens are very glaring when transitioning from other dark-mode enabled websites. (And the new theme is more "white"!) Futchitwo (talk) 17:29, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
 * @Seregadushka, @Futchitwo, thank you for your comments. I've just updated our answer about dark mode in the FAQ.
 * In short, we are not going to do that as part of this project. At the beginning of the project, we would even say that it's not possible. It has become technically possible recently, though, and someone at the Foundation could work on that.
 * Perhaps you would consider taking part in the Community Wishlist Survey and voting for dark mode? This is an easy way for editors to ask for a specific technical change. The period for making proposals will be in January, and voting would be around late January - early February. (See the Wishlist's FAQ to learn how to take part.) Thank you! SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 22:55, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I can't figure out how to participate in the survey. Where is the choice of questions ? 4 periods are specified, but there are no actual tasks of this survey. Prudently. On the topic -- now absolutely all operating systems of mobile phones and computers have "Dark Mode". Stop hanging around in the past, when there was nothing but a white Apple. If the design is only white? My eyes hurt from the work of your designers ! Seregadushka (talk) 03:27, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Hey @Seregadushka. We also believe having the dark mode would help. As I wrote, this mode has only been made possible recently, as a consequence of this project. (The Survey hasn't started yet - the first phase will start in January.) SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 16:11, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * And my eyes hurt when I try to read bright text on dark background. Also you seem to be (deliberately?) forgetting that even Apple I had white text against black background (as did Apple II and MS-DOS) - I'd say there's a reason we moved away from that. 2A02:A312:C539:8D80:78DE:760D:452F:23E2 19:58, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Talk:Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements|I see you don't even mention these reasons, because there is no reasonable explanation for this. What you don't know how to do working with CSS styles is not the reason. The whole world is striving for green technologies. But you don't understand (intentionally?) that millions of monitors operating in the mode of maximum energy consumption disrupt the general movement of humanity to reduce the impact on the environment. Hire other programmers who understand CSS. Seregadushka (talk) 23:26, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
 * "At the beginning of the project, we would even say that it's not possible."
 * This is a completely false statement. From a programmer's point of view I can guarantee everything that such a change is extremely easy.  But on a LARGER NOTE -- the Wikipedia Android Mobile App has had dark mode for quite some time.  And the time is far overdue for the web interface to catch up and stop being both a drain on electricity and a strain on eyes. ClimbAll (talk) 09:34, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't call dark mode easy, or impossible. Somewhere in the middle. There are dozens of CSS elements you never think about or notice until dark mode messes them up.
 * I have been using Skin:Citizen for quite some time on my wiki with very few problems. It has an excellent dark mode that automatically engages when user browser preference is set.  I think WMF should make it available for logged in users. Flounder ceo (talk) 16:18, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello from a fellow programmer. I have tried making a dark mode of the legacy Vector skin. It's horrible. You are very much wrong when you say that it is extremely easy. It seems like you have very little experience in this field. Building a system with both light and dark modes from scratch, isn't so bad. Wikipedia wasn't built for that, and the articles written since were styled for a bright interface.
 * I also use the mobile app, and in a dark style. I like it. But you can't escape from the fact that the mobile app was built almost from scratch, and that there's several visual problems with it.
 * The Wikipedia system wasn't constructed for this. It seems like the new one is enabling that. That's great. Andcraft (talk) 04:13, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * > At the beginning of the project, we would even say that it's not possible. It has become technically possible recently, though
 * This is an insane thing for you to have to say. If the redesign made darkmode impossible and it has only recently allowed for it for be done very difficultly, you should consider whether the redesign is any good at all. 81.100.55.96 00:15, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello! Let me clarify, I meant this project has just recently made it possible to build the dark mode. Before that, with the previous skins and in the early stages of the project, it wasn't possible. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 02:01, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Tbh I don't see how it would be technically impossible to create an additional dark-mode. Leave vector2022.css to handle all the display elements, but you can easily set a separate theme css files to handle things background colors, border colors, text colors, etc.
 * Since Wikipedia allows the use of custom CSS anyway seems to be time to go trawling through the default vector2022 css file's in an dev tool and adapt a dark theme from that.
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Harbin91/vector-2022.css
 * Would it be perfect? No, I know CSS3 can perform hue and saturation shifts, on images, but it would effectively change how they're viewed, outside perhaps having a change to how images are displayed. Same perhaps with some other display elements.
 * But impossible? I don't buy that reasoning. I was beginning to do a dark theme for the old Vector theme but that remained unfinished. 82.43.217.218 22:00, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Please read the rest of the discussion. Lots of things are possible in the triangle of time, cost, quality. So whenever people say 'impossible' they rarely mean actual impossible, they refer to feasibility within those constraints. MediaWiki is VERY old. It's code is scattered and inconsistent. Now it is more consistent and uses LESS and more consistently uses variables for colors instead of hardcoded values. The TRUE difficulty of MW theming is and will always be in the user generated content, where everyone and their grandmother can specify whatever color they want.
 * Now if all the highly qualified developers here, would please become contributors instead of shouting half informed comments from the sidelines, this all would go a lot faster :) —Th e DJ (Not WMF) (talk • contribs) 13:27, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I am astounded that after such a large update to the UI, native dark mode for desktop is still not a feature. Frosck (talk) 23:31, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * In fact, I made a naïve assumption that a native dark mode would be a part and parcel of the new UI— calling it "not possible" is laughable at best TheLucifer0509 (talk) 04:20, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I absolutely agree with this. I can't add much to the discussion, but I feel this NEEDS to get to Wikipedia. Vicente Valle (talk) 06:54, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

There are several dozen applications for Windows browsers, that have the conditional name "Dark Mode". One change the display for ANY site. And they are practically not mistaken. I.e. they have a universal mechanism of operation for all Internet sites. And you can't make a "Dark Mode" specifically for Wikipedia, when you don't have to guess, all the properties are known. Almost always people make decisions (and answer questions and suggestions) who understand little in questions asked. I'm not a programmer, I haven't sold a single website, I'm not paid to know CSS, it's a hobby for me. As the programmer ClimbAll (talk) has already said, this is extremely easy to do:

And that 's all ! Currently, the whole Wikipedia works on the same CSS style, only the properties are swapped (even if you use PHP, it won't be much more difficult). You only need to provide switching  and Of course, you can choose different colors for texts of different purposes, different degrees of "grayness" of the background of the pages. But these are conventions. I assure you, the entire amount of work will not go beyond 10 KB :) Seregadushka (talk) 17:36, 24 January 2023 (UTC)


 * For users interested in Dark mode who have not yet participated in the related discussion of the Community Wishlist Survey 2023, you can do so here meta:Community_Wishlist_Survey_2023/Reading/Dark_mode. Patafisik (WMF) (talk) 11:07, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Last year WMF removed dark mode from the wishlist. Flounder ceo (talk) 16:07, 31 January 2023 (UTC)


 * The Wikipedia App has already two different dark modes and a sepia one. On the desktop I always use the firefox add-on Dark Background and Light Text by Mikhail Khvoinitsky with the option "Stylesheet processor", but sadly not everything is displayed correct at Wikimedia-Projects. Links are all blue for example. Also it takes more cpu usage instead of loading a native darkmode site. --KleinerKorrektor (talk) 19:34, 18 February 2023 (UTC)


 * As an aside/work-around, the Dark Reader browser add-on, available for most common web browsers, is a very useful add-on which generates a dark mode for any website as the page loads. --Davecykl (talk) 22:11, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Some opposes and supports with same argument

 * Moved at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Rollback_of_Vector_2022#Some_opposes_and_supports_with_same_argument

Tagline issue
On Romanian language Wikipedia, the tagline („De la Wikipedia, enciclopedia liberă”) is a little misaligned. Compare ro:Zebră with en:Zebra. -- NGC 54  ( talk |  contribs ) 16:05, 17 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Hello @NGC 54. I think we have talked about this before, but can't quite remember the conclusions. Because I know you're skilled technically, I'd like to double-check before I ask the engineers for their attention – are you sure this isn't a local matter that could be solved on the community side? SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 15:54, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I do not know how to solve the issue, so I have opened a local discussion: ro:Wikipedia:Cafenea. -- NGC 54  ( talk |  contribs ) 17:02, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The tagline has disappeared at all. See ro:Wikipedia while logged-out. -- NGC 54  ( talk |  contribs ) 16:51, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Reference columns
Forgive me if this has been discussed. I did look!

I just noticed that the new skin seems to force references set to be in two columns into one. See the references at the foot of en:Don Bradman. Is this deliberate? If so, I can't understand why it's considered a good idea. --Dweller (talk) 15:03, 22 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Hello @Dweller. Thanks for coming here with your question. I think what you're referring to is a consequence of Vector 2022 having different width settings than legacy Vector. With V22, by pinning or unpining side menus, you may choose between one, two, and three columns, and the content area is only one of them. If the width of your screen is below a certain threshold, the content area gets narrower because the columns on both sides don't. So even though above some threshold, there are two columns of references, below it, there may be one. Is this helpful? SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 14:08, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I have discussed something similar regarding w:Template:Reflist not displaying in columns when it should, and was told to change my browser zoom from 100% to 90%. As a temporary measure, this fixed my display problem. I have been having issues with the triple-bar hidden menu in the top-left corner being horizontally squished, locked in place, and entirely unusable. As an option, you could try going to your Preferences and switching back to the Vector Legacy skin. &#8212;&#160;CJDOS,&#160;Sheridan,&#160;OR&#160;(talk) 03:41, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi @Dweller, I'm doing some tests about your concern. Are you experiencing this on desktop/laptop? In the article of your example (en:Don Bradman) I see more then one column, with open and/or closed menus and with different browsers, don't you? Using and  or  ; I'm not sure if this is the only display that has this problem.

Here are some screenshots showing what I mean:


 * Coordinates sometimes overlap with infoboxes: https://imgur.com/x5Nq4rn (link to article).
 * Coordinates sometimes overlap with dispute messages: https://imgur.com/JrlOznX (link to article).
 * Coordinates overlap with the "Content that violates any copyrights will be deleted" message that appears when previewing an edit: https://imgur.com/URs93YH.
 * This does not happen on the same pages when using Vector legacy: https://imgur.com/0xSWhGC.
 * Some pages with hatnotes have the coordinates placed correctly: https://imgur.com/QOUYCN4 (link to article)...
 * ...while others do not: https://imgur.com/ufqJB7D (link to article).

I'm not sure where else to report a bug with the skin itself. I figured this would be a good place to do it, but I'll move this post elsewhere if need be. If this page is just for feedback, I would be remiss not to share that I love the 2022 skin :-)

Cheers. Matt.brown (talk) 21:10, 28 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi @Matt.brown, thank you for your feedback! About this issue you can read the task T281974 on Phabricator and discussions of related tasks too. If needed, you can add further screenshots and specific cases in the discussion. Patafisik (WMF) (talk) 09:51, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

TOC
Hi. Vector-2022 developers, please pay attention to T335633, it looks pretty serious to me. Thanks. IKhitron (talk) 23:23, 30 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Hey, thanks for pointing at this issue and creating a task on Phab. We're doing it this week. I hope this will be fixed soon. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 09:08, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Move article title above the main menu
Hello Vector2022-Developers,

please add a possibility to select in the settings that the article title does not extend over the article width, but over the whole window width. This could be implemented by bringing the left sidebar with the main menu to the height of the article and having the article title run along where the notifications are displayed (example).

Dwain Zwerg (talk) 13:30, 2 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Hello @Dwain Zwerg. Thanks for coming to us with your idea. What problem would this solve? I'm especially interested in learning when (under what conditions) this problem exists.
 * Regarding the solution itself, have you considered the drawbacks? What about short titles being put too far to the left, or the fact that on different viewports, the title wraps in different places, or the problem of Just make it a user preference? With the last point, I mean, perhaps making a gadget would be more feasible.
 * That said, I'm curious what's your thinking, how you've come up with this idea. Thanks! SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 10:08, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello @SGrabarczuk,
 * What problem would this solve? Larger headings, like the one shown in my screenshot, would be on one line instead of two.
 * What about short titles being put too far to the left, or the fact that on different viewports, the title wraps in different places, or the problem of just making it a user preference? I understand the problem, but theoretically you could always center headings, couldn't you?
 * With the last point, I mean, perhaps making a gadget would be more feasible. That could be, maybe I will be able to convince other people to find the idea good, then maybe me and probably mainly the technical workshop in my community could rebuild the page. Of course, that would mean a higher loading time.
 * Thank you,
 * Dwain Zwerg (talk) 10:37, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Not enough space for text
While browsers learned 10 years ago, that it is better to have as much space for the website as possible, Wikipedia does the opposite and makes the side bar wider, which leaves less space for text. That sould be changed. Also it is too white, some contrast with the gray on the sides looks better. Slytzel (talk) 21:40, 2 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Hello @Slytzel. Regarding the contrast issue, we're working on a more gray version, and we'll be testing it on wiki soon. You may be glad to read this announcement.
 * When it comes to the idea of limiting the content width, there's an essay about our goals and motivation, which I'm encouraging you to read. If you're dissatisfied with this design, you may use the full width option, which for both logged-in and logged-out users is persistent (is kept despite of refreshing the page or going to a different page on the same wiki).
 * Thank you, SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 20:41, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Verdict
Just adding my voice to the majority, I waited to give my verdict, and it's still the same as the first day I saw the 2022 update: poorly done, not easier to use, not more advanced nor more simple. The user who put it the best said "Maybe the real purpose of the change was to get us all to make accounts...." If that was the case, fair enough. I know our feedback doesn't generally mean much to those who run the site, and that's fair as well, but might as well point out that it hurts to have an establishment unconcerned with the community. YouCanDoBetter (talk) 04:21, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Content list gone in BG Wiki
Hello dear team. I would like to know, what is the reason the content list to be moved out from the articles in the Bulgarian Wikipedia? I am long time editor, mostly in he Bulgarian Wikipedia and even for me this "new" is hard to be understand, its absolutely not useful. The list was really important to be on seen place, now is in left and for long articles, is really hard to be used, especially for people which just read and not write. Why we should make more complicated Wikipedia? Станислав Николаев (talk) 14:12, 3 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Hello @Станислав Николаев. Thanks for coming to us with this question. You'll find all the basic information on this page, from which you may dig deeper into our testing documentation.
 * In short, we have moved the table of contents out of the content area to make it easier for users to (1) gain context about the page and keep it while reading, and (2) jump between sections. Both of these make exploring content easier and more efficient. There are also other consequences, like there's more area for actual content in the content area, which is important in the light of a different change - the limitation of the content area width.
 * Have you identified any particular cases in which the new table of contents is hard to be used for readers? Perhaps you're referring to some issues we're working on. Thanks, SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 20:35, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I understand, thanks for the answer. Станислав Николаев (talk) 11:11, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Languages in alphabetcal order
Hi, would it be possible to add an option for displaying the list of languages in alphabetical order - instead of this large "suggested languages" panel?

I swear, I saw this a few months ago but somehow it disappeared. SolarisAmigo (talk) 21:04, 8 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Hello @SolarisAmigo. Thanks for your question. How the language switching feature works, as opposed to where it is placed, is part of different software (Universal Language Selector) decided by a different team (Language engineering). Let me ping @UOzurumba (WMF) who's part of that team. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 20:20, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
 * please see T319690 Jdlrobson (talk) 16:31, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * @SolarisAmigo
 * The language selector combines different approaches to facilitate the language selection:
 * Provide flexible search where you can find a language by searching for them in multiple languages (you can search for “spanish”, “español”, o using the language code “es”).
 * Suggested languages section is useful for people that frequently switches among the languages they speak. For example, a speaker of English and Korean, can quickly switch between them without having to search or scan a potentially large list.
 * The above methods are the most commonly used for selecting a language. In the exceptional cases where users browse the larger list, we group the languages by region and script so that they can quickly skip blocks that are not relevant to them.
 * Providing alphabetical order is not very meaningful for a list of items in multiple scripts (in which order “中文“, “ไทย“, “हिन्दी” should go?).  For more advanced use-cases where you may need a flat list, in many cases accessing the list on Wikidata (From the language selector: “Add languages > Edit interlanguage links”) can be useful.
 * We would like to learn more about your particular use-case to explore how can we support it better. Feel free to provide more details. Thank you! UOzurumba (WMF) (talk) 17:51, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Vector 2022 with an honest TOC
Hey. I prefer Vector 2022 over the previous version in every aspect save one: That super-annoying sidebar TOC.  OMG  : It is SUCH A FREAKING PAIN to navigate. Can I get Vector 2022 with honest-to-goodness TOC like Vector 2010? TksLingzhi.Renascence (talk) 01:16, 15 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi @Lingzhi.Renascence, thank you for your feedback. You can restore the inline table of contents adding this JavaScript code in your Preferences > Skin Vector (2022) > Custom javascript. Patafisik (WMF) (talk) 10:48, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * If you like the Vector-2022 layout, but with the old TOC, I recommend the Timeless skin, it's what I use and I like it a lot. Ivanics (talk) 04:27, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Frustrating
This seems like such a simple problem to notice, but apparently it has not. When editing in the new editor, it has a nasty tendency (not 100% of the time) to jump to the beginning of the edit section with the insertion of a capital letter. So after a period, you begin a new sentence. It should follow the period, not start ahead of the entire block. That is text editing 101.2603:8001:A601:2A56:542C:632C:1403:A7D9 18:16, 21 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Hello! Thanks for raising this issue. What new editor do you mean? Could you walk me through, step by step? What browser and OS are you using? SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 18:31, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Incorporate the articles title into the ToC
The sticky ToC looks a little bit anaemic when scrolled down. The titles Contents and the technical (Top) with its weird braces are not really a substitute. I’d make the title of the ToC the same as the articles subject. As an additional bonus it could function as a link to the top. And of course there is sticky magic to only enable the title if the main title of the article is scrolled outside the viewport. 176.199.150.38 00:04, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Is there some A/B testing going on?
I'm used to the contents, when hidden from the sidebar, in en-wiki, would be being located behind the in the sticky header, which is great. I recently discovered that it seems that in namespaces like  it's now a free-floating icon in the top-left corner (e.g., en:Draft:Smart Communications (software company)). Is this intentional? Tenryuu (talk) 22:16, 25 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Hello @Tenryuu. No, we aren't running A/B tests now. I think this isn't the expected behavior... I'll file a ticket on Phabricator. Thanks for noticing this and informing us! SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 13:00, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Second thoughts, this appears to be due to the lack of the sticky header in this namespace. Otherwise, the icon would be part of it. I think we (the enwiki community and our team) could discuss and make a collaborative decision which namespaces with the sticky header currently disabled should get the sticky header. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 13:07, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
 * @SGrabarczuk: Thanks for the explanation. If a discussion should occur, please let me know. Tenryuu (talk) 13:09, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

When will vector-2022 be the default for the German Wikipedia
Contrary to a lot of comments here I can't wait to finally get vector-2022 as a default for Wikipedia. I am mostly working with ultra wide screens and even when only using the center portion for my browser window, I much prefer the narrow text layout.

I think it's well documented that smart usage of white space and smaller column widths make text easier to read, and I am looking forward to not having to add '?useskin=vector-2022' to German Wikipedia URLs any more.

Where does the discussion on when / if to roll this out for German Wikipedia take place? Is there any public information on this issue available? 62.218.63.247 13:14, 26 May 2023 (UTC)


 * They are mainly vocal opinions from old-school Wikimedians. The major users wouldn't feel that the old version was better. 🐱💬 03:35, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I totally understand the frustration of what seems to be a huge part of corporate websites these days, that use huge fonts and narrow paragraphs that make it really difficult to quickly absorb larger amounts of information. I too am furious when I have to endlessly scroll down to see information that would have easily fit on a single page.
 * With text based content however, I feel it's clear that narrow columns and good use of space between is what you should go with as a designer. 62.218.63.254 15:03, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
 * There is now a vote and discussion at Vector 2022 als Standardskin. Discostu (talk) 13:42, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Page zone separation trial (Zebra9)
Are comments about the ongoing trial being collated anywhere? Personally I am finding the grey background separation between zones to be a backward step from the "cleanliness" of V22. AllyD (talk) 19:38, 2 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Same for me. MikeMatyMatta (talk) 11:43, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Notifications missing from sticky nav
The sticky navigation has all the important links available except one: notifications. This means that when I am working through my notifications, I always have to scroll back to the top to go to the next one. This should be changed. Discostu (talk) 13:45, 8 June 2023 (UTC)