User talk:Fram

--Rschen7754 08:34, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Your edits to VisualEditor
It's clear that your edits are trolling, as well as editing copies of official correspondence that was already posted crosswiki; please do not do this again. --Rschen7754 08:34, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Fuck off. What about my posts was "trolling"? If it is "official correspondence" that shouldn't be edited, they shouldn't make it editable and clearly indicate that it is for reading purposes only. This is still a wiki, no? Then correcting things is allowed, no, encouraged. Hiding your heads into the sand and acting as if all is well in VE land is not going to help anything or anyone. Fram (talk) 09:33, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

By the way, next time, you should preview your edits before saving them. At the top posting "Dear Fram, Welcome to MediaWiki.org! [...] Thanks, and regards, --Rschen7754", and then continuing with a second section "you are trolling", only makes you look like a fool. Fram (talk) 09:36, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I see that you are an admin here, that may explain the entrenchedness of your action. Please, instead of using the cop-out of "trolling", next time try to articulate an intelligent reason for your reverts. If I had wanted to troll, I would have simply replaced the release notes with "Another week, another buggy Visual Editor release". That is trolling; what I did was correcting an incorrect text on a wiki with more correct (but less pleasant) information. I had provided most of these corrections on en-wiki first, but instead of retracting or correcting the text, the best one can expect of the WMF is creating bugzilla bugs (which one helpful developer did) or simpy total silence, despite explicit requests to post feedback there. So if you (WMF, Mediawiki admins, whoever thinks they are in charge here) can't correct things, and you pretend that this is a wiki and that I am an editor here as well if I want to, then you should be happy with my efforts in reporting my findings and correcting the incorrect information the WMF is spreading, instead of calling it "trolling" and bl;indly reverting it. Fram (talk) 09:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Blocked
I'm not the same admin as the one who posted the warning above. At least on this wiki, especially given that you are an administrator on the English Wikipedia, you should know that better civility is expected. There were better ways to convey your concerns; this page is mainly for use by the maintainers of the project. Your edits to it have been disruptive and POINTy.--Jasper Deng (talk) 09:45, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Have you blocked Rschen as well? He accused me of trolling for making actual observations about the errors in your "official" statements. I only replied in kind... Or are admins not allowed to follow policies here, only regular editors? You blocked me for "Intimidating behaviour/harassment", which is strange, since I was not the one that reverted "trolling", and have not posted on his talk page, while he posted on mine. How have I harassed Rschen or anyone here? This block is ridiculous on all accounts. Have you found anything actually wrong with my edit, or simply unpleasant? Fram (talk) 09:49, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, my opinion is that the block is needed to prevent you from causing further disruption to that page. "Trolling" is indeed too far, in my opinion, but you seriously need to calm down and find less disruptive ways to convey your concerns. The block rationale more refers to "Intimidating behavior" - your edits to the page were not blockable alone, but your above comments and combativeness do warrant a block.--Jasper Deng (talk) 09:51, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, they don't warrant a block at all. I make one edit to that page, and an admin here decides that it is enough to call it "trolling" and to reverse it without any discussion of the merits (or lack thereof) of my edit. What reaction did he (or you) expect? I didn't go this talk page or some general page (this site's equivalent of WP:AN) to complain, I kept it here. You felt I overreacted or was too aggressive, fine, you could easily have come here and politely asked me to calm down and to discuss my edits on that page. Instead, I get a block, and the one calling my edit "trolling" without any justification doesn't even get a talk page message indicating that he was out of line here. Please unblock me and start discussing things in an adult way instead of using muscle to avoid problems. If polite discussion didn't help, then blocking might perhaps have been necessary. But not here and now. Fram (talk) 09:59, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I would've been more lenient if I didn't also know you are an English Wikipedia administrator. Therefore I expected that you would not approach this in such a combative way. It was pretty clear - you made an edit you were not supposed to make, you were asked to not do it, and you were blocked as a result of disregarding that. You may be unblocked as soon as you promise to be more collegial and to refrain from making edits of that kind to that page. I personally also think VisualEditor was poorly executed. But this does not mean you get to take out your anger here.--Jasper Deng (talk) 10:03, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "you made an edit you were not supposed to make" Why? It is a wiki, I corrected errors. My version is more correct than what is there now. Why am I not allowed to make that edit? Is this an open wiki?
 * "you were asked to not do it," No, I was told that I was trolling. "Asking" is done in a different way.
 * "You may be unblocked as soon as you promise to be more collegial" If someone (who is an admin here) immediately attacks me, then I respond in kind. If you or anyone else is not willing to enforce civility against your own admins, then don't expect me to behave differently. You get the culture you deserve.
 * "refrain from making edits of that kind to that page." As soon as anyone explains what is wrong with them, or makes better edits to that page.
 * "But this does not mean you get to take out your anger here." I wasn't angry, I was serious. The way Rschen and you have handled this and treated me are working on getting me angry though. You at least are discussing things, not ordering trolls away; but you started with a block, instead of starting with discussion, and you have simply reverted my edits, instead of looking at their correctness, because they are negative. Well, sometimes reality isn't all rosy and shiny. Fram (talk) 10:12, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

As a person who hopefully can be considered uninvolved: I think Jasper is right here. The first VisualEditor/status edit of yours was kinda funny, but the situation, with the reverts and the "trolling" and the "fuck off", quickly stopped being funny and started being nasty instead (on both sides, yours and Rschen's).

By the way, comments about VE are better addressed to somewhere where they are more likely to be read, such as James' email. Matma Rex (talk) 10:20, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Then why am I blocked and Rschen hasn't received even a talk page message? According to you, I posted a "kinda funny" edit (hopefully in the "it's funny 'cuz it's true" sense), then Rschen reverted me and immediately accused me of trolling, and I end up getting blocked (for harassment, no less) while he doesn't even get a warning? The block isn't simply over the top and hasty (AGF, first try to discuss things and only block when that doesn't help), but it is severely unbalanced as well, giving completely different treatment to admins and non-admins here.


 * As for your final remark: James (you mean Jdforrester?) posted the release note at enwiki, with the request to post comments there or at the VE feedback page on enwiki. I did post my remarks on both pages, but Jdforrester hasn't even acknowledged them. A WMF dev has checked my tests and posted a few bugzilla bugs (which was nice), but no one could be bothered to update the release notes (or status page or whatever you want to call it), even after I had indicated that they were clearly wrong. So I did it myself. Apparently this isn't allowed. Why this site then is a wiki is not clear. Why apparently all of you prefer to have incorrect information posted, instead of correcting it before the actual rollout happens, is not clear. It's not as if I was correcting status updates from months ago, I was correcting the status notes for a release that will only reach most other wikis later this week. Fram (talk) 10:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Square one
I would like an answer to three questions:
 * 1) What was wrong with my edit on the Status page
 * 2) Why wasn't I first approached to discuss things instead of immediately blocking me?
 * 3) Why gets Rschen a different treatment than I do? You seem both to agree that he shouldn't have called it trolling, but still I am blocked for reacting in kind, while he gets nothing. Fram (talk) 10:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It's an official page used for development purposes. Bug reports don't belong there, certainly not in the tone you wrote them in.
 * You were. Rschen said for you to please not do it again.
 * I will speak to Rschen about this (sent him some messages on IRC), but two wrongs do not make a right.--Jasper Deng (talk) 10:44, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If people are not allowed to edit it, you should semi-protect it or otherwise make it clear that that page is not to be allowed. There was not a single indication at that page that not everyone was allowed to edit it. Furthermore, I didn't post bug reports, I corrected clearly incorrect claims. It is quite telling that no one has actually told me what was wrong with my edit apart from the "you are not allowed to make it" cop-out.
 * "Please" <> "Trolling". His edit summary was "revert trolling". I don't follow insults blindly. If people want cooperation, they should try a different approach. Furthermore, you don't reply my question. You can't seriously claim that his reversion and "It's clear that your edits are trolling" are an approach to discuss things.
 * Finally, thanks for taking the right action wrt Rschen at last, but indeed, two wrongs don't make a right, that's why I don't want you to block him (which would make two wrongs), but to unblock me (which would make one right).

Next time, please do a few things differently:
 * a) Don't start claiming that things are "trolling" even if you think that the tone or place are misguided (which I suppose were Rschens problems with my edit), or even if the contents would have been wrong (which no one has said or shown so far)
 * b) Don't treat people wildly different, this doesn't improve the chance of them accepting your "ruling". Blcoking the user who is unfairly accused of trolling for lashing back on his own talk page, while not bothering to even contact the "troll" commenter, gives no trust in the admin community here.
 * c) If you want people to stop and/or calm down, engage them in civil, calm, adult conversation first. If that doesn't work, it is still time enough to block them. It's hardly as if I was doing extensive damage to Mediawiki, with two edits to one page and edits to my own talk page apparently sufficient to need an immediate block.
 * d) Provide an unblock template or other means to ask for independent review here. It helps if people at least have the feeling that they are being heard.

Any reason that I am still blocked, by the way? Two wrongs may not make a right, but one wrong doesn't make a right either. Fram (talk) 11:14, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I really hoped I did not have to do this, but I feel that you are not listening to what I have been saying; as such, I have disabled your talk page access for the remainder of the block. As an English Wikipedia admin, you should know that to get unblocked, there's en:WP:NOTTHEM. You remain blocked because it is evident it is still necessary to prevent further disruption - and given your volatile replies to Rschen7754, you probably should look at yourself a bit more closely.--Jasper Deng (talk) 11:17, 30 September 2013 (UTC)