Talk:Code of Conduct/Archive 4

Harassment Survey 2015
(Bringing my thoughts on the Phabricator task over here. Apologies for the confusion)

Unfortunately given the results of the recent harassment survey I'd say we don't have to worry about external trends to influence our decision. Harassment is something our community needs to deal with. An enforceable code of conduct is (one) first step to addressing these issues.

For others tracking this work who have not read it, I suggest reading the survey results. It is something relevant and worth reviewing in light of this discussion.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Harassment_survey_2015

Ckoerner (talk) 04:33, 2 February 2016 (UTC)


 * What's the connection between harassment on Wikipedia and harassment among Wikimedia technical developers? Isn't that like extrapolating from the behavior of people who go to bars to the behavior of people who brew beer? Yaron Koren (talk) 01:21, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
 * The scope of the survey is Wikimedia projects, which includes Wikimedia technical spaces.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 08:57, 11 February 2016 (UTC)


 * My apologies - I thought this was a purely Wikipedia-based survey, but I see (according to page 24), that 92% of the people who reported being harassed had it happen on Wikipedia, while 1% had it happen on "MediaWiki" (whatever exactly that means). I'd say my original point still stands, though, statistically speaking. Yaron Koren (talk) 01:29, 12 February 2016 (UTC)


 * In order to know whether your point stands or not, we still need a data point: the percentage of visitors of "MediaWiki" that were harassed in "MediaWiki". To put an extreme example, if 99% of the participants in the survey were not harassed in "MediaWiki" but didn't visit it either, that would mean that the 100% of the rest (1%) were harassed in "MediaWiki" indeed.
 * But there is a simpler point to all this. There is harassment and disrespect in Wikimedia technical spaces. I have seen it, I have spoken with others that have suffered it, I have got to deal with it, and I'm sure what I have seen is only a portion. That is what motivates me to support this work.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 07:07, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
 * MediaWiki has about 3% as much active users and 0.2% as much pageviews as enwiki, so it does not seem like it's particularly underrepresented in the responses.
 * That said I think the most helpful thing that could happen to this discussion in its current state would be testimonials about past harassment, instead of vague claims that person X has heard about many / other communities have lots so we must have too. I understand this is a sensitive issue, the target of harassment does not always want to speak about it, or might become a target again by speaking out, but even so I doubt it's hard to find examples where the subject is willing to talk about it. --Tgr (WMF) (talk) 17:09, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Qgil - I wasn't making any statement about harassment, just questioning an apparently flawed analysis by Chris. Tgr - I wasn't criticizing the survey, just questioning its applicability. Yaron Koren (talk) 01:25, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi Qgil-WMF. In both this section and in other sections, you've raised harassment hypotheticals. In this section specifically, you state "There is harassment and disrespect in Wikimedia technical spaces." Like Tgr, I'm curious about specific examples, not hypothetical examples. Do you have a specific example of harassment or other unacceptable behavior in Gerrit? Do you have a specific example of harassment or other unacceptable behavior in Phabricator? I'm curious to see these examples and learn how the existing processes failed. --MZMcBride (talk) 23:59, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I can't speak for Gerrit but certainly there has been some problematic behavior on the Mailing lists, IRC and even Phabricator. As I said elsewhere though I don't think this document is the right direction. It's a solution looking for a problem. We already have too many conflicting policies and guidelines in place now, it seems more logical to just include conduct in these off wiki areas under existing policies. Currently the argument is made that X doesn't apply because it's off wiki (Mailing lists, IRC, Phabricator, etc.) however I think the communities, the WMF and the movement would be better served to simply state that these things do fall under Wiki policy as long as the areas represent participation by some are of the WMF. So if the Wiki policy says X, then X also applies to IRC and the Mailing lists as well. Although there are differences that would need to be clarified, this would make a lot more sense than creating a new Code of Conduct that no one will follow or enforce evenly and fairly. Reguyla (talk) 16:56, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not talking about hypotheticals. The Developer Relations team (before Engineering Community Team) has received dozens of reports, and we continue receiving them. Sometimes we find situations of inappropriate behavior, and we act on them directly. I agree with the CoC draft where it says that reporters and those reported deserve confidentiality and this is why I won't share details. I'm pretty sure that contributors who have been long enough in Phabricator or Gerrit have seen cases of inappropriate behavior. We are not inventing a problem here.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 20:52, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi Qgil-WMF. I don't believe that a reasonable and fair discussion can be had if one side refuses to provide any evidence for its extraordinary claims. When pressed for specific examples, you're unable to provide any. How can anyone involved in this discussion then evaluate potential solutions to a problem that's left intentionally undefined?
 * It seems quite clear to me that the burden of proof rests on the people making claims of such rampant harassment that a MediaWiki-specific arbitration committee is needed. You cannot ask others to prove a negative. I follow Gerrit, Phabricator, and the technical mailing lists fairly closely. If you're receiving dozens of complaints, surely you can provide a few specific examples for the people on this talk page who are asking, repeatedly, for you and others to substantiate your claims. Particularly in the context of forums such as Phabricator and Gerrit, how often are there problems requiring attention and how often are the current set of processes and procedures insufficient? --MZMcBride (talk) 03:18, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Quim was explaining what motivated him to support this work. If you think he might be lying, well -- you're entitled to think that, but it is neither here nor there. Harassment is common in online communities. Given this background, even if you think harassment is something that only happens elsewhere, it is still important to send a signal to current and would-be members of our community that we don't consider harassment acceptable, and that we have protocols and processes in place for dealing with it. --Ori Livneh (talk) 04:35, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi Ori Livneh. I think in the context of discussing new protocols and processes for specific forums such as Gerrit and Phabricator, we must examine actual problems happening within those forums. Then, any potential solution to these actual problems can be measured against the problems themselves. Whether Quim is a liar is irrelevant: I believe in verifiability, not truth. That's a core wiki principle.
 * Another benefit to providing specific examples is that it provides calibration for the system. Are we sure that everyone is talking about the same kinds of behavior? You (Ori) use Gerrit and Phabricator pretty heavily. Have you observed Gerrit or Phabricator users harassing other users, making threats of violence, stalking users, etc.? Maybe I'm just not subscribed to the same tasks, changesets, and pastes as others. When diagnosing and addressing issues in a system, I think you and anyone else would require hard evidence in order to make significant changes to the architecture or infrastructure.
 * Your argument that it's "still important to send a signal to current and would-be members of our community that we don't consider harassment acceptable" seems to completely ignore that we already have Terms of Use and Code of conduct and several other pages, some of which are linked from Code of Conduct/Draft. What's your point, exactly? --MZMcBride (talk) 04:57, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * How exactly can we provide data without risking to expose those reporting and those being reported, and without risking to reopen wounds? If someone has a good answer, we are happy to follow up. Meanwhile,, precisely because you follow this community fairly closely, I believe that you have seen enough evidence of social problems with your own eyes. Maybe your are minimizing the relevance of these problems, maybe we have different definitions of what constitutes a social problem. A Code of Conduct is useful to have a less subjective measurement of social problems in our community.
 * Let me add that the current definition of inappropriate behavior in the draft CoC has been already useful to guide our opinions on some reports. A CoC is useful not only to identify cases of harassment and disrespect, it is also helpful to identify situations reported where someone's behavior might still be questionable or uncomfortable, but without constituting a CoC violation. Again, definitions help, and this is also a very Wikimedia thing.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 13:24, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Could you provide anonymized stories (with the permission of the victim)? Or at least statistics? --Tgr (WMF) (talk) 22:36, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, I agree with MZMcBride (and others) on this issue; I too am curious as to what these incidents of harassment have looked like, and I think it's quite relevant to the discussion. I'm not saying that harassment never occurs - I've seen a few cases over the years of overt rudeness and personal attacks, but I'm not aware that it's widespread, and I've never seen such things on Gerrit and Phabricator, for instance. If privacy is a concern, could you at least describe the harassment in general terms? Was it name-calling? Threats? Sexual harassment? Something else? Yaron Koren (talk) 23:07, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
 * On publishing harassment reports data, see .--Qgil-WMF (talk) 09:14, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Considering the model of Rust's community Moderation team
In the context of Requests for comment/Governance, the Architecture committee is discussing the creation of specialized working groups. One proposal is to Create a Wikimedia equivalent of Rust's Moderation subteam (T126605). Let's discuss this idea here, since this directly affects the current draft about the Code of Conduct Committee.

Required reading: https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/1068-rust-governance.md#moderation-team

Related: https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/1068-rust-governance.md#community-norms-and-the-code-of-conduct

Needless to say, I like the idea of a community team in charge of solving the problem of harassment and disrespect in Wikimedia technical spaces. I also like the idea that such team is connected to the Architecture Committee, which is the only community governance body we have (currently in the draft, the CoC committee appears more connected to WMF's Developer Relation team). All in all, I think Rust's Moderation team can be a good precedent and example for us. Being one of many working groups connected to the ArchCom would make this team part of a bigger and consistent structure, instead of a single entity on its own.

About the name, yesterday I had a conversation with where he said that "Code of Conduct committee" is a name too tight to a specific solution, whereas "Moderation committee" points more to the problem that needs solving. I think this argument is reasonable, and anyway "Code of Conduct committee" is not a great name.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 08:59, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I am fine renaming "Code of Conduct Committee" to "Moderation Committee". What do other people think? Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 21:20, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
 * "Moderation Committee" or "Moderation team" both sound good to me. -- Gabriel Wicke (GWicke) (talk) 18:37, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
 * "Moderation team" sounds to me even better than "Moderation Committee", but I don't have a strong opinion.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 08:34, 22 February 2016 (UTC)


 * The idea here is to create roughly an "Arbitration Committee"? No thank you. --MZMcBride (talk) 03:56, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
 * could you explain your reasoning, please?. Wikimedia's arbitration committees are a close reference to what this team would be, yes. Our technical activities and technical spaces differ from those of the Wikipedias, and therefore this team will probably be different in some ways, but yes, essentially this is about "a small group of trusted users who serve as the last step of dispute resolution" (about conduct issues, not content/technical issues).--Qgil-WMF (talk) 07:09, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi Qgil-WMF. I don't think creating additional and unnecessary bureaucracy is a good idea. As far as I can tell, this "code of conduct" is an overblown solution in search of a problem. I share the concerns noted by others that most of the activity and support here is coming from people with "WMF" in their usernames and not from the broader technical community. --MZMcBride (talk) 23:53, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
 * If there is no problem, then there will be no reports, or the reports will be trivial, the CoC will be just a wiki page, and the CoC a group of contributors that will be able to keep dedicating their time in other things. However, if there is a problem indeed (as I'm defending based on the reports my team is receiving and other situations I see as a member of this community) then we will keep having reports, that will be dealt by a team of community contributors (the CoC committee), using a documented framework (the CoC) that has gone through community review. Looking at each scenario, I don't see what the community (and especially the victims of inappropriate behavior) have to lose. On the other side, I see what can we all win.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 21:05, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi Qgil-WMF. Your reply here reminds me of the argument people make when creating tools to invade others' privacy. Namely, "if you're not doing anything bad, you have nothing to worry about!" To me, your position here is unacceptable. The burden is on you and others supporting a code of conduct and a special related committee to demonstrate the clear need for both. If you cannot do that, I don't see how it would be reasonable for anyone to support this expanded bureaucracy on a "just in case we one day need it" basis. Proposing solutions requires demonstration of a problem, so that the proposed solution can be adequately measured against the problem and so that people can make informed and intelligent decisions about cost, benefit, and proportionality. This is how we would treat any technical request for comments.
 * The refusal to submit direct evidence of problems that would be solved by erecting an arbitration committee-like body makes any discussion of creating such a committee a non-starter, in my opinion. A rational and serious discussion cannot be had when one party withholds pertinent evidence and will only submit high-level and unsubstantiated figures (i.e., "dozens of reports"). Other parties cannot be expected to try to refute shadows and figments. --MZMcBride (talk) 03:36, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * , if you need direct evidence of problems and you consider my position of not exposing people through specific examples as unacceptable, then I will live with it. I doubt your proposed path of demonstration, measurement, cost, benefit, and proportionality actually puts the emphasis on the needs of existing or potential victims of harassment and disrespect. They are the main users of this CoC.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 15:39, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi Qgil-WMF. Okay. I've tried to give you and others an opportunity to make your case in a reasoned, evidence-based way. Your refusal to substantiate your claims makes it impossible for me to support any special committee and its associated expanded bureaucracy. At present, we have a "solution" in search of problems. The problems remain intentionally undefined by you and others.
 * Until you or someone else can demonstrate real problems that would be addressed by this code of conduct and its special committee, problems that are currently unable to be resolved by existing processes and procedures, there's no way that I can support this proposal. I would never expect you, Ori, myself, or anyone else to make significant changes to a project or organization's architecture or infrastructure without solid reasoning and evidence to support those changes. --MZMcBride (talk) 18:09, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

The Committee elects their new members
Good recipe for a new Geshuri incident, isn't it? -- Ricordi  samoa  23:09, 12 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Your rhetorical question has a different answer than you might expect ('No, because the nominees are known far in advance'), but the question 'why isn't it an election' is a valid one. It was introduced after the discussion at Talk:Code_of_Conduct/Draft/Archive_1, but there was not much discussion on the committee deciding on their own members. is there a reason to prefer this over open elections? I can imagine the private feedback to be a reason, but a veto should then be good enough. Valhallasw (talk) 22:02, 13 February 2016 (UTC)


 * It's the same reason, e.g. no one is proposing that the whole MediaWiki community elect subteam leaders or members (see Requests for comment/Governance). It's a job that can benefit from specific experience and skills (though hopefully there will also be training).


 * Ricordisamoa, I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a process that doesn't sometimes lead to a bad outcome. We all know government elections don't always elect the right person, for example.  I think the current draft is a good process for this committee, but we should keep thinking about it. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 01:04, 18 February 2016 (UTC)


 * : Matt has already suggested one reason for preferring appointment over elections: this job requires specific expertise, which elections are not great at delivering (I think this is why judges are appointed in most systems of government).
 * I agree with that, but here's another: voter fatigue. Each election you set up imposes major burdens on the voters (to say nothing of the organizers, candidates, question-askers, and guide-writers), because it takes a lot of time to educate yourself enough to make an informed choice. And that time that doesn't bring you much direct benefit because your vote has only a small impact on the outcome.
 * For example, I was eligible to vote in the recent enwiki ArbCom election. I considered that quite important, but I never voted because there were 21 candidates, 28 voter guides, and I don't know how much else. Elections for this committee probably wouldn't be that complex, but they'd still be a major load on everyone. In many cases, elections are worth the trouble, but in this case we have a good alternative that's much more efficient.—Neil P. Quinn-WMF (talk) 19:53, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's a fair point. Still, I feel some sort of community oversight helps to strengthen the legitimity of the committee (and it helps to decrease the appearance of a 'WMF-appointed committee'). Could we have some sort of process where the committee proposes the new member(s), but the community can still veto the appointment? The recent Board situation shows this is going to happen unofficially otherwise... Valhallasw (talk) 08:35, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with the sentiment, but how would a community veto work? Currently self-nominations have a public scrutiny period of 2-4 weeks. If someone has a problem with a candidate, in our relatively compact and well connected community 2 weeks is enough time mobilize a community response that whoever is in charge of nominating new committee members should consider.
 * Taking as an example the Geshuri incident, the community had no nomination period to watch and no official veto power, yet there was an open letter requesting his resignation within 24 hours, and he stepped down 19 days after his announcement. This makes me think that the current 2-4 weeks for self-nomination and discussion are already a good medicine to prevent this type of situations.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 09:46, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Suggested changes
These are some suggested changes to "Unacceptable Behavior" and "Report a problem" (version without change). They are based on feedback from the consultants as well as other people.

Please indicate your views with Support, Oppose, or just a comment. If you would support the change with some alterations, that would also be helpful to note. Based on this, I will determine if there is consensus for/against, or if people might support a modified version of the suggested changes (if it needs more work then another consensus discussion).

I apologize that this feedback arrived later than planned, but I think this will create a better document. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 01:43, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I think there are some good changes in here (and have no issues with the length of time involved). Thank you for suggesting them. -- Krenair (talk &bull; contribs) 02:24, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Clarification of legitimate reasons for publication of private communications and identity protection
Should the following clarifications be made regarding privacy?:
 * Add "Publishing or reporting private communication or personally identifying information for the purposes of reporting harassment (as explained here) and/or in the case of whistleblowing, is acceptable." after "Inappropriate or unwanted publication of private communication."
 * Add "Disclosure of some identifying information is not consent to disclose other identifying information." after "Disclosure of a person's identity or other private information without their consent."

Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 01:43, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Consensus reached. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 23:45, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
 * The whistleblowing exception makes me feel much better about this (previously ridiculous) line. I'm not sure whether I'm fully convinced yet, but it's unambiguously an improvement.  Krenair  (talk &bull; contribs) 01:50, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Both additions seem reasonable and provide useful clarification. Kaldari (talk) 02:42, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Makes sense. --Smalyshev (WMF) (talk) 04:00, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * - Jmabel (talk) 05:00, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * --Qgil-WMF (talk) 08:11, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * per Krenair. Bawolff (talk) 19:26, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
 * When does something qualify as whistleblowing? Real-life whistleblower protection laws typically only cover some fairly specific things like breaking laws. Also, reporting private communication for the purposes of reporting harassment, sure; but publishing it is hardly justified by that. --Tgr (WMF) (talk) 07:54, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * The dictionary definitions of whistleblowing (e.g. Dictionary.com "a person who informs on another or makes public disclosure of corruption or wrongdoing.", Wiktionary, "the disclosure to the public or to authorities, usually by an employee, of wrongdoing in a company or government department") cover general wrongdoing, so I think that's the meaning here (not that it needs to specifically be against the law). (I think the Wiktionary definition is overly limited, so I'm going to expand it).  Publishing is sometimes necessary.  For example, if someone harasses people at multiple conferences, it may be necessary to document that publicly.  That documentation may require republishing e.g. harassing emails. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 01:59, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
 * The second point is an excellent change. I'm not entirely sure about the first; I worry that whistleblowing and reporting harassment are quite flexible categories and could be abused, but I do understand the reason for including them (particularly because CoCs are as much about setting expectations as about providing "laws" to be strictly followed). We can always change or clarify that point if it becomes an issue.—Neil P. Quinn-WMF (talk) 01:45, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Both points make sense and are important additions. NiharikaKohli (talk) 14:01, 9 March 2016 (UTC)


 * I have trouble seeing in what situations publishing PII (as opposed to reporting it to the committee) should be allowed, so I'm not fully comfortable with that part. It is limited to "reporting harassment and/or whistleblowing" which makes me feel better because it excludes bad-faith cases; I'm just not sure what legitimate cases there would be. Nevertheless, both changes are clear improvements over the previous text. --Roan Kattouw (WMF) (talk) 19:30, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Part of the reason is to allow coordination when dealing with harassment that occurs across multiple communities. See my reply to Tgr above. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 22:36, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I support this change but I think it's better to add a note explaining what "whistleblower" means (or a link to its wikipedia article). I'm worried that due to cross-cultural nature of projects people accidentally or deliberately misinterpret the phrase and cause irreversible damage. Ladsgroup (talk) 12:43, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
 * SSastry (WMF) (talk) 19:34, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Definitions - trolling, bad-faith reports
Should the definitions of trolling and bad-faith reports be clarified as follows?:
 * Replace "Trolling, for example by sustained disruption, interruption, or blocking of community collaboration." with "Harming the discussion or community with methods such as sustained disruption, interruption, or blocking of community collaboration (i.e. trolling)"
 * Replace "Reports of unacceptable behavior must be done in good faith to defend potential victims and to restore a friendly environment. Accusations of unacceptable behavior against potential victims or reporters done as a tactic to introduce more tension or confusion are unacceptable themselves." with (new text would be added in bullet point) "Using the code of conduct system for purposes other than reporting genuine violations of the code of conduct (e.g., retaliating against a reporter or victim by filing a report claiming their response was harassment)"

Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 01:43, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Consensus reached. Supported in general.  There was one objection to something in both versions, and one person was neutral. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 23:52, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I know it was in the existing text but can you give some examples of "blocking of community collaboration"? I'd like to make sure we're all thinking along the same lines here. -- Krenair (talk &bull; contribs) 02:23, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I'd summarize it as working to cause interpersonal rifts and disruption, rather than working to get things done, solve problems, make decisions, answer questions, etc. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 01:33, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Sounds extremely vague/broad to me. -- Krenair (talk &bull; contribs) 01:39, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
 * A specific example would be personally attacking someone, instead of discussing a proposal they raised. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 01:35, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Makes sense too. --Smalyshev (WMF) (talk) 04:45, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Jmabel (talk) 04:59, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Doesn't seem to make much difference. "response" in the last sentence is probably the wrong word (or in any case I don't understand what it refers to). --Tgr (WMF) (talk) 08:05, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * --Qgil-WMF (talk) 08:13, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, in the second item "response" in this context means that Person A files a report regarding Person B. Person B responds by filing a report against Person A as a from of retaliation. Is that right? CKoerner (WMF) (talk) 15:10, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Assume Person H harasses Person V. Person V responds by e.g. going public with the harassment, reporting the harassment to the maintainer of a related repository, or reporting it to the Committee.  This proposed line means that if Person H then reports to the Committee that Person V's response was harassment, the Committee can consider Person H's report to be unacceptable behavior. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 02:32, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I support the trolling one. I have mixed feelings about the second point. Bawolff (talk) 19:30, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I like the phrasing of "using the CoC system for purposes other than...", it's simpler than the current text. --Roan Kattouw (WMF) (talk) 19:20, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Marginalized and underrepresented groups
Should the following be added to the list of Unacceptable behavior, to back up the Principles section?:

"Discrimination against marginalized and otherwise underrepresented groups"

Some parts of the harassment survey (of all Wikimedia projects) show that Wikimedia has a particular problem with harassment against underrepresented groups. For example, figure 17 on page 19 shows that (for all but one type) female users were more likely than male users to experience harassment.

This proposed text would support the Principles text about this. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 01:43, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * See amended text. I've amended the proposed text in response to feedback.  Please participate here instead. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 00:13, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm wondering whether age would count here. -- Krenair (talk &bull; contribs) 01:53, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, we should think about this in regards to 18+ restrictions in our technical spaces. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 03:17, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * An example to think about is Confidentiality agreement for nonpublic information, though this is not limited to technical (also, the limit is 16 for some roles). Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 03:23, 24 February 2016 (UTC)


 * This one short phrase would, if I understand it correctly, add a whole other category of wrongdoing to the code of conduct: discrimination. That would open up a big can of worms, and seems like a very bad idea. (Not to mention that the phrasing makes it seem like you would be allowed to discriminate against some people, but not others... as I said, can of worms.) Yaron Koren (talk) 02:34, 24 February 2016 (UTC)


 * "Discrimination" is this context is pretty poorly defined term. Also, we have already said that it's not ok to mistreat and harass people, so adding "it is also not ok to do the same if the targets belong to underrepresented groups" is redundant. Moreover, it might even produce an impression as if it's less bad to mistreat people if they can't be assigned to any "underrepresented groups", which is certainly not what we want. --Smalyshev (WMF) (talk) 04:40, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * As Smalyshev (WMF) and Yaron Koren wrote, the proposed wording might be misinterpreted. -- Ricordi  samoa  04:53, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

What would it change? We already have "Offensive, derogatory, or discriminatory comments" which seems to cover this. --Tgr (WMF) (talk) 07:58, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * This covers actions, whereas the other line only covers comments. For example, "Refusing to grant +2 to someone deserving it", because they're a person of color. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 02:22, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

There might be a point on covering discrimination as a type of harassment, but it would need to be better defined. Examples of potentially discriminatory actions that are not clearly covered now: refusing to grant +2 to someone deserving it, rejecting a valid scholarship request, or a proposal for a session in an event... all this justified on technical grounds, fair principles, but in fact being motivated by a filter of discrimination. The type of discrimination against minorities and marginalized groups that we can see in similar circumstances in our societies.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 08:23, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * OTOH, it requires everyone to be mind readers: "Oh, he had solid technical reasons for denying that request, but we just know it was really because he's racist." It also explicitly legitimizes playing the race card as a tactic to harass someone for legitimately rejecting a request despite the second bullet in above. Anomie (talk) 15:00, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Same concern here. Without identifyable pattern of behavior, it encourages guessing intent, which invites to abuse the system. How could you find out if something is "motivated by discrimination" or not? Short of explicit admission (which is unlikely to happen especially if complaint is filed) there is no way to objectively establish that. Which means people would resort to personal preferences and likings, and that would not go well. --Smalyshev (WMF) (talk) 20:39, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I note that the article you links to there also includes the line "George Dei, et al., in the book Playing the Race Card argue that the term itself is a rhetorical device used in an effort to devalue and minimize claims of racism.". So concerns about use and misuse here go both ways.
 * In the situation where it is misused - and I honestly can't imagine one - people can choose not to enforce, or to prioritise the second bullet point. On the other hand, the absence of a rule means that if it is used legitimately the committee would have no recourse. Ironholds (talk) 02:43, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
 * It's not hard to imagine. Moreover, it (trolling using "discrimination" complaints) has already happened in other communities. The scenario is simple - two people come into conflict about some technical or community question, one discovers there's an "underrepresented minority" card laying around unused, picks it up and plays it by claiming other side's disagreement is motivated by discriminatory intent. At which point the other side is in an awkward position of being obliged to proof they did not commit thoughtcrime, since objectively proving intent - or absence of - is impossible. And since there's an objective conflict in which one side is "underrepresented minority" and another is not, having an action available to one side that is very hard to counter creates motivation for abuse. It is not to say everybody would abuse it - far from it - but even several incidents of such abuse, especially if successful into pressuring the other side into something they wouldn't agree with otherwise, but would do just to deal with accusations of discrimination, IMO would significantly affect trust and collaboration in the community. --Smalyshev (WMF) (talk) 19:26, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with Ironholds. If there is no evidence, or the only "evidence" is mind-reading, the Committee is not going to act on a discrimination claim.  I think it's very unlikely that people will make baseless 'race card' claims, and even less likely that the Committee would act on them. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 06:03, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
 * No, addressing cases of potential discrimination doesn't require everybody to be mind readers. If someone suspects about a case of potential discrimination and they report it, this allows at least a basic scrutiny. Even if someone did commit an act of discrimination but it could not be proved, the next time that person will be more careful in a similar situation, knowing that another report in a similar vein will bring more attention. Not as perfect as reading minds, but much better than impunity. I mean, many governments and organizations (the WMF included) have mechanisms to report cases of discrimination, and they don't rely on reading minds to address them.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 08:03, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Governments usually use judicial system or similar complex mechanisms with multiple checks and balances to ensure lower instance of abuse. Even then discrimination complaints usually prove very controversial and very hard to arrive to a definite conclusion. We do not have such system at our disposal, so this can of worms would be harder to deal with once opened. --Smalyshev (WMF) (talk) 19:26, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
 * It goes both ways: even if someone did not commit an act of discrimination and the accusation could not be proved, the next time that person (and anyone who was watching) will be less likely to to take a future correct action against the person for fear of another such accusation. Especially if people are going around with statements like yours, Quim. Anomie (talk) 14:39, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree, it can go both ways. That's why we should avoid poorly defined subjective terms like "discrimination" (unless we find a way to define it non-poorly and objectively, which currently appears hard to me) - because there's too much room for mistakes even with best intentions, and if things get more heated, the room for mistakes turns into a whole apartment complex. Some people would claim actions are too harsh, others that they are not enough, nobody would be happy, and the reason would be we made rules that are too vague and do not set same expectations for everybody. --Smalyshev (WMF) (talk) 23:11, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't agree that it's ill-defined. We know what discrimination is.  It would need to be proven to the Committee, just like any other violation. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 02:22, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

If a contributor makes known their reason for their actions as being discriminatory, then it should be covered by the Code of Conduct. A silly example would be someone saying "I don't like left-handed people, so I didn't approve their merge."

While Trg points out that we do have language regarding discriminatory comments, we should be explicit and include discrimination as not just a comment, but purposeful actions as well. I agree with Quim that this should not be better defined, but it should be present. CKoerner (WMF) (talk) 15:41, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Here is a hypothetical scenario that I think highlights one of the problems with a directive like this: during the course of a day, I tend to help various people with software issues, including on mediawiki.org talk pages and in mailing lists. (That part is true.) Now, let's say that someone runs an analysis of the help I've provided, and sees that I've helped nearly everyone, except people with Spanish-sounding last names - they rarely get help from me. When confronted about it, I admit that I dislike Hispanics and specifically try to avoid helping them. Now, this is a clear-cut case of discrimination, against a group that presumably is marginalized and underrepresented, within Wikimedia technical spaces. Should I be punished for the crime of literally doing nothing? In other words, am I obligated to do additional volunteer work just to avoid censure by the WMF? Yaron Koren (talk) 14:48, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
 * per Chris. Ironholds (talk) 18:10, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I completely agree with Chris' points. I also think that this serves as an emphasis to the broader point, and that has a tremendous effect as well. MSchottlender-WMF (talk) 21:00, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Interesting scenario. I'm wondering if we could also use this another way e.g. to deal with people who refuse to support non-Wikimedia users. -- Krenair (talk &bull; contribs) 16:25, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I understand the issue you're raising? If you are intentionally ignoring providing help to specific groups like that, you are, indeed, discriminating against them. We should discourage this in our technical spaces, so I am not sure I see the problem of putting it in the Code of Conduct as something we are discouraging. As for "punishing" -- that's a question of how far you took it and how far people have been affected by it, which will be elements that the committee -- if this was reported to it -- will have to go over and make a determination on, similar to any other "directive" on what we consider "unacceptable behaviors." Discriminating against specific groups, even "just" by ignoring them and refusing to help them, can (and does, very often) make people from these groups consider this space hostile or uninviting or offensive. If that's the case, then isn't it something we should discourage people from doing in our spaces? MSchottlender-WMF (talk) 21:00, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Discouraging is fine, but this is a code of conduct, not a guideline for recommended behavior - and that specific line would go into a list of "Unacceptable behavior", which I would think by definition means that it will lead to penalties. Would you be fine if the committee punished a volunteer for not volunteering? Yaron Koren (talk) 21:57, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
 * A couple of things here; first, yes. That behavior -- whether it is manifested by doing something actively discriminating, or doing something passively discriminating, is something we should state as unacceptable, because it should be unacceptable. If that person is the only person whose role is to give assistance, for example, and that person gives assistance to everyone except a certain group, then I would prefer that person vacates the role -- volunteer or not -- than continue with discriminating against groups. Second, the question of severity and penalties is why the job of the committee is to look at the severity of the case and not just issue blind "penalties." How big it is depends on what happened -- or "not happened" -- which is true for most rules and regulations that are then overseen by a committee. We are writing general guidelines of what people should not do - the committee can then look at how serious the offense was and decide about the next steps, which can be as minor as to talk to the person, or as grave as to remove them from that space or other spaces. That's what the committee is for -- and that's true for all the other points in the CoC in general, otherwise we'd never be able to cover all instances of all possible problems and their edge cases. MSchottlender-WMF (talk) 02:01, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm talking specifically about me in this hypothetical - and no, it's not my role to give assistance. Your thoughts are appreciated, although I think the fact that it's ultimately up to the committee is pretty obvious. The main question, in my mind, is whether people think it's okay to punish volunteers for not volunteering. It's good to know that you think the answer is yes. Yaron Koren (talk) 03:08, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
 * But you're not really giving an example of a volunteer not volunteering - you're giving an example of a volunteer volunteering while discriminating against people. That's different. If you (or whoever, I preferred keeping this non-personal, since it's hard enough to recognize tone in writing) took a role where one of the responsibilities is to provide support, and you (or whoever) provide support only to one group and purposefully ignore another, that's discrimination. That's what the story sounded like in your first reply, and on that sense, it sounded to me to be fairly straight forward (though I do agree that the "penalty" may not need to be severe, depending on scope and effect, etc etc)
 * However, in the above reply you changed conditions slightly, which makes it a bit less clear. If you provide this support randomly without it being your role, because you just answer random things online from the goodness of your heart, then I don't quite see how this can be considered as something that this rule applies to. It's also a relative edge case that is exactly why the committee exists for. You can find edge cases in any other rule - or regulation, or law of state - on and offline. That's why we don't have algorithms just rigidly apply punishment for violation of laws. We have courts offline, and the committee in the context of this Code of Conduct. MSchottlender-WMF (talk) 05:39, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't think I changed the conditions. You apparently think of volunteers as people who officially sign up for volunteer tasks; but there are many people like myself, who give their time voluntarily on MediaWiki-related spaces without an official title - I would say we're volunteers, though if there's a better word for it, let me know. I also don't think it's an edge case: I gave what I see as a straightforward example of someone who would be engaging in "unacceptable behavior" by doing nothing. Yaron Koren (talk) 13:33, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't think you changed the conditions either, and I too do not support anything that tries to punish generic volunteers for not volunteering in some particular circumstance. OTOH, if someone volunteers to fill some specific position that has requirements for cases in which they're supposed to help people and discriminates in fulfilling those requirements, that could be actionable. I doubt we need the clause proposed in this subsection to take action, though. Anomie (talk) 14:38, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, that hypothetical example is discrimination and should be forbidden by the CoC (and is by the proposed sentence). You ask, "Should I be punished for the crime of literally doing nothing? In other words, am I obligated to do additional volunteer work just to avoid censure by the WMF?"  No, you are not required to do volunteer work, and no one can ask you to do additional volunteer work.  The clause does prevent you from deliberately allocating your volunteer efforts in an anti-Hispanic way, and that is correct.  You would remain free to allocate your volunteer efforts in any other way (only answering on Wednesday, only answering node.js questions, only answering about "cool" projects, only answering easier questions, etc.).  You just couldn't consider "no Hispanics" as part of your time allocation.  If called on this, you could allocate your time (without spending any more time) going forward in a non-discriminatory way.  If you refused and continued to deliberately discriminate, penalties would indeed be appropriate (e.g. a temporary ban from the mailing list).  There is no part of the "Unacceptable behavior" section that only applies to volunteers, or only applies to staff, and we shouldn't start now. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 22:19, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I have to admit, that's a much better answer than I thought was possible for this question. I still don't think it's convincing, though, in that it says that there's certain behavior that is both voluntary and unquestionably helpful but which is still considered unacceptable. Yaron Koren (talk) 14:17, 2 March 2016 (UTC)


 * The circumstances of this situation you're describing seem rather unlikely to me: 1) Someone runs a deep analysis on an individual's behavior (what would prompt this?) 2) You know the last names of all the individuals you are providing help to (how often is this or other personal information actually available?), 3) You are confronted by someone who thinks you are not giving enough of your time and you ought to give more (in my capacity as a volunteer, literally no one has ever requested this of me, nor have I observed it.), and 4) You hypothetically and explicitly admit to a discriminatory attitude (more likely, this kind of attitude is obfuscated or deflected).  Furthermore, the CoC isn't really designed to address discrimination by omission.  There are probably tons of people I help new editors at the the Teahouse at en.wiki; if you did an analysis, you could probably manufacture that I was discriminating against some group or another.  Lacking overt behavior, there's not a robust way differentiate someone who is actually discriminating and someone who simply had so much time to give.  The CoC doesn't seem like it would be used in the manner you are suggesting. I JethroBT (WMF) (talk) 05:46, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
 * You're right that it's a contrived example, although there's a reason for that. As I see it, there are two big issues with the proposed "discrimination" policy: (a) discrimination, based on ethnicity and so forth, is very hard to prove; and (b) even when discrimination does occur, it usually doesn't make sense to punish it, in the context of voluntary behavior. I wanted to focus an example on (b), but to do that, I had to include an "orgy of evidence", to avoid the many problems related to (a). Issue (a) may actually be the bigger one: discrimination is easy to accuse someone of, but very difficult to prove - not a recipe for success. Also, I strongly disagree with your last point - whatever the CoC is or isn't designed to do, once it's in place it can be a weapon that can be used for all sorts of purposes, intended or not. On a more minor note, much of the help I provide is via email, so I do often know the last names of the people I'm helping. Yaron Koren (talk) 14:18, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
 * this Code of Conduct is first of all a code of conduct, a document explaining our commitment as members of this community. It is important that we ourselves commit to not discriminate anyone because of race, gender, surname, etc, and I see no problem in writing that down, even if detecting racists, misogynists, xenophobes, etc, is not always easy.
 * About whether it is acceptable to be racist, misogynist, xenophobe by omission on a volunteering capacity, no, I don't think it is acceptable, and I don't think we should have a CoC condescending with such behavior. Such individual behavior is not scalable, and it would pass as acceptable only when the rest of the community is not racist, misogynist, xenophobe, etc. If every individual would be implicitly allowed to follow the same pattern, we would end up having a Wikimedia tech community blatantly racist, misogynist, xenophobe, etc. We should have zero tolerance to such discriminating behavior. If someone manages to camouflage it successfully then well, at least we are doing our best, and at least the one in an uncomfortable position having to adapt is the racist, the misogynist, the xenophobe, etc.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 09:41, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I assume, then, that you support removing the "marginalized and otherwise underrepresented groups" part? Also - and more importantly - it very much sounds like you're saying that most Wikimedia developers are bigots. That is a deeply insulting thing to say, and a bizarre statement from anyone, let alone someone whose job is to help out the community. I would think either an apology or a clarification are in order. Yaron Koren (talk) 14:18, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
 * What? You suggested a theoretical example and I replied to your theoretical example. That is all. I am not picturing or accusing anybody in our community for discriminating anyone else because of race, gender, origin, etc, so I don't think I owe an apology to anyone. If there would be any, I would not owe them an apology either. If someone thinks I'm wrong, please be more specific in your accusation.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 14:35, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
 * You wrote, "If every individual would be implicitly allowed to follow the same pattern, we would end up having a Wikimedia tech community blatantly racist, misogynist, xenophobe, etc." What else could that mean, other than that you think Wikimedia developers are inherently racist, sexist, etc.? Yaron Koren (talk) 15:20, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Nothing in Quim's comment remotely suggests he is criticizing the actual community as racist. He said "If every individual" followed a discriminatory pattern, and the CoC allowed that, the community would reflect that.  He did not say it actually was a common problem.  Your hypothetical addressed an inherent racist, so it is correct that Quim's hypothetical addressed inherent racists as well.  Neither of you said racism was actually a massive problem in the community. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 23:03, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
 * No - he didn't say "followed", he only said "allowed to follow". There's a world of difference there. Yaron Koren (talk) 00:15, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
 * your question boils down to "is it unacceptable behavior when a volunteer discriminates someone based on race etc by not helping them?", My reasoning to that question boils down to "Yes, that is unacceptable behavior, because if all community members would do the same, this community would clearly discriminate certain people because of their race, etc, and that would be clearly unacceptable behavior." I think this is a solid argument that makes no judgement on our existing community.
 * Now, to the grammar: if something is not "unacceptable" then it is "acceptable". If the problem is that I should have written "accepted to follow" instead of "allowed to follow", then well, sorry for my English. You asked for an apology or a clarification, I hope the latter works.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 09:57, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Changing "allowed" to "accepted" wouldn't change things - you're still saying that MediaWiki devs are inherently racist. (Perhaps that's indeed what you think.) Anyway, I'm still wondering about my other question: would you support removing the "marginalized and otherwise underrepresented groups" part of the statement?
 * I am not saying saying that MediaWiki devs are inherently racist, and I don't think they are., can you please stop putting those words in my mouth and go back to the original topic of this section? I expressed my opinion about it days ago ("There might be a point on covering discrimination as a type of harassment, but...").--Qgil-WMF (talk) 14:39, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Fine, I'll let the subject drop - it's good to know that that's not your opinion. I don't understand how that previous statement relates to my question - could you please just directly answer it? Yaron Koren (talk) 14:53, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Frankly, I don't think there is a lot of value in continuing this conversation, so let's agree to let the subject drop completely. I JethroBT (WMF) (talk) 23:09, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
 * your question was "would you support removing the "marginalized and otherwise underrepresented groups" part of the statement?". My opinion about this was "There might be a point on covering discrimination as a type of harassment, but it would need to be better defined." plus some other details that you can read in my original comment above. If you are asking for a binary opinion yes/no, I don't have it. I keep reading others' opinions, trying to form my own.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 09:06, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
 * That's a long way to say "I'm not sure", but thanks. Yaron Koren (talk) 14:17, 8 March 2016 (UTC)


 * I worry that a line like this would somehow imply that its more ok to harras non-marginalized groups. Obviously marginalized groups have a higher likely-hood to face discrimination, which is bad, but I'm not sure that this line would be the best way to address that issue. Bawolff (talk) 19:35, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
 * . However, I suggest changing it to "discrimination, particularly against marginalized and otherwise underrepresented groups." In practice, discrimination is pretty much always against such groups (which is why they're called marginalized). But other kinds of discrimination are at least conceivable. For example (as someone of Indian descent) I wouldn't consider South Asians marginalized in tech fields. But we still might as well include discrimination against South Asians even as we focus on other groups for whom discrimination is much more likely.
 * One possible objection is that people could use such a line to argue that, say, Outreachy violates the code as "reverse discrimination". But I think many lines in this document are vulnerable to such bad-faith twisting, and there's no perfect way to prevent that.—Neil P. Quinn-WMF (talk)


 * I could support if you make it about discrimination in general, without limiting it to or calling out specific groups of people. And if we agree that false claims of discrimination may be considered as falling afoul of the "reports of unacceptable behavior must be done in good faith" clause. Anomie (talk) 14:53, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, a bad-faith/deliberately false report of discrimination would certainly be covered. Any such report (regardless of the alleged violation) would be.  (Note there is a proposal to change it to "Using the code of conduct system for purposes other than reporting genuine violations of the code of conduct [...]", but it is similar in substance). Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 05:49, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

. A lot of the counter-arguments seem to be focusing on unlikely scenarios instead of the more important big picture. Sure, we can shoot logic holes into this or any code or any body of law in general. That's not the point. The point is to protect as best as we can those who can not protect themselves but who are valuable to us. Obviously marginalized opinions and contributions are highly valued. And so we should protect them, even if we have to have a few awkward conversations that require us going beyond absolute pure cold hard logic and into something a bit more human. Someone mentioned that we do not have a judicial infrastructure to match government judicial infrastructures. Yes... we also don't have a body of law that spans millions of pages. We have a simple code that's mostly straightforward and born out of decent self reflection. Someone else asked what happens when one person who prefers to discriminate as part of their volunteer time is told they are doing something wrong. Well, first, that person is doing more harm than good. That's very important for us to agree on. If you produce some brilliant thing and then crap all over it, most sensible people will not dig through your crap to find the beautiful thing. Second, what if *everyone* discriminated against the same group? That's just as likely as the original scenario. So, personally, I'd rather protect against that and I am happy to be called upon to diffuse a few awkward confrontations that result from a rule that some think too strict. I would, in general, advise that we use our energy more wisely than to argue for discrimination, no matter how loose the term. Milimetric (WMF) (talk) 04:27, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
 * If I may ask - do you support or oppose restricting this prohibition to just "marginalized and otherwise underrepresented groups"? And could you explain your reasoning? Yaron Koren (talk) 14:16, 9 March 2016 (UTC)


 * I agree with others that the current wording makes it seem like we're more opposed to discrimination against marginalized groups than others. A principle opposing discrimination in general would be welcome. Could we change "Offensive, derogatory, or discriminatory comments." to "Offensive, derogatory, or discriminatory actions and comments." - will that be sufficient to cover the case the current proposal intends to address? -- NiharikaKohli (talk) 14:54, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I think your proposed wording would cover most of it, but part of the role of a code of conduct is to demonstrate the community's priorities to potential new contributors. For that reason, I think it's worth highlighting both discrimination and marginalized groups in a separate item; this would help communicate that we as a community strong and enforceably oppose discrimination and understand that, in practice, it affects some groups a lot more than others (for the record, that's not the same thing as saying that we think discrimination is common in our community). What do you think about this wording?
 * [Unacceptable behavior includes:] Discrimination, particularly against marginalized and otherwise underrepresented groups. (Targeted outreach to such groups is allowed and encouraged.)


 * —Neil P. Quinn-WMF (talk) 19:33, 9 March 2016 (UTC)


 * This looks good to me. I'd support it. -- NiharikaKohli (talk) 14:12, 10 March 2016 (UTC)


 * as written. I support the principle, but I agree with Niharika and Neil that the underrepresented groups part should be changed. I'd prefer to keep the reference but make it non-exclusive (as Neil suggests), but I'd also support a general discrimination clause without that reference (similar to what Niharika suggests). --Roan Kattouw (WMF) (talk) 19:38, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I think these two optins (1- the suggested change 2- NiharikaKohli's suggestion) are good and interchangeable and I've no preference between these two. I've got a note about the race card: ِyou all heard The Boy Who Cried Wolf. It's natural that the CoC committee ignores people who play the race card (or other minorities) too many times Ladsgroup (talk) 13:21, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

New proposed wording
Should the following be added to the bulleted list in Unacceptable behavior?

"Discrimination (unless required by law), particularly against marginalized and otherwise underrepresented groups. (Targeted outreach to such groups is allowed and encouraged.)"

"unless required by law" is meant to address the age discrimination issue raised (age restrictions are necessary for legal reasons in certain contracts).

This addresses several issues raised in the prior discussion. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 00:13, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Consensus reached. One person objected to "a ban on discrimination as a whole".  He and another person also disagreed with the wording about outreach (for context on this, see the prior discussion).  There was also one neutral position.  Overall, there was strong consensus. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 21:55, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Let me see if I can summarize: there was a discussion period during which several people raised objections and/or attempts at clarification, which were for the most part ignored; followed by a lull of several days; followed by some sort of canvassing after which four people from the WMF added their support over the span of two hours; then a quick wrap-up, which again did not respond to any of the unresolved questions. Do I have that about right? Yaron Koren (talk) 00:47, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
 * No, you do not. The first discussion on this started February 24.  It was then updated in response to feedback, and the most recent discussion lasted two weeks.  It was not a "quick wrap-up"; the overall process just of this sentence lasted over a month.  Several people responded to you, and to other people's concerns (in fact, concerns raised in the prior section are why this new text was proposed to begin with).  You have the right to agree or disagree with their responses.  That does not mean they didn't consider your points and respond. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 21:14, 4 April 2016 (UTC)


 * as proposer. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 00:13, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * - I see a number of issues with this wording - and with the concept of trying to enforce a ban on discrimination as a whole - but one big issue here is that this text introduces at least four big concepts, without defining any of them: "discrimination", "marginalized group", "underrepresented group" and "outreach". And possibly five, with "particularly" - what does this word mean, given that any discrimination would be unacceptable already? Most of the rest of the document covers harassment, and spells that out in fairly explicit detail. This little sub-clause would introduce a whole new category of wrongdoing - discrimination - but offer no further explanation. And I don't think I'm nitpicking here, because I think being forced to spell out exactly what is forbidden and what is encouraged would bring to the surface some of the internal contradictions in an anti-discrimination rule. Yaron Koren (talk) 13:17, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm still not too fond of it implying that some types of discrimination are less bad than others (some types are less of a concern because they're not as endemic as others, but that doesn't make them less bad), but at least it's not restricting it to only some types of discrimination anymore. The sentence structure with interrupting parentheticals seems poor to me. IMO, better wording might be something like "Discrimination, unless required by law (e.g. age restrictions for legal reasons). Targeted outreach to marginalized or otherwise underrepresented groups is not considered discrimination and is encouraged." Anomie (talk) 13:42, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * "Some types are less of a concern because they're not as endemic as others." I agree, which is exactly why I think it's important to call out the types that are (much) more of a concern. Is there other wording you think would accomplish that better?—Neil P. Quinn-WMF (talk) 17:49, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * IMO the wording I suggested accomplishes what needs to be accomplished. I don't think that acknowledging the level or concern of every pervasive social ill is within the scope of the Code of Conduct. In scope is making the social ill itself is against the Code. Anomie (talk) 13:41, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Vastly improved wording. If given a choice though, I'd prefer the wording Anomie suggested above which lays it out more simply and clearly. I feel it's important to include the example for the "unless required by law" clause because it's not obvious when might such a scenario come up. NiharikaKohli (talk) 14:47, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Wordsmithing might still be possible, but it's good enough to criticize. Thank you for demonstrating leadership by adding this expression of our desire to serve all of humanity. -- RobLa-WMF (talk) 17:24, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * . Marginalized groups, by definition, suffer the overwhelming majority of discrimination. Our wording should demonstrate we understand that.—Neil P. Quinn-WMF (talk) 17:49, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * --Vituzzu (talk) 18:11, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Echoing User:Neil P. Quinn-WMF's and User:RobLa-WMF's words. MSchottlender-WMF (talk) 18:37, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment/question - if someone were to organize a hackathon in the U.S. open to only evangelical Christians, would that be unacceptable or encouraged? Yaron Koren (talk) 19:23, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Seems like a false dichotomy. Is everything that is not encouraged "unacceptable"? -- RobLa-WMF (talk) 22:06, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Under the wording being proposed, yes - it makes it pretty clear that any act of discrimination that's not legally required would be either unacceptable or encouraged. Yaron Koren (talk) 23:44, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * obviously, this wording would prohibit any discrimination against evangelical Christians. It would only allow closed programs for them if they were marginalized and underrepresented within the Mediawiki world. Someone who was interested in running such a program could demonstrate that by providing evidence that evangelical Christians face systematic barriers to entering similar groups, like open-source software projects, free-culture movements, or San Francisco-based tech companies. I doubt that such barriers exist, but I could be proven wrong.—Neil P. Quinn-WMF (talk) 07:27, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
 * There's nothing in the wording about providing evidence, or "systematic barriers" - as I noted before, this potential clause says nothing about what it means to be a marginalized or underrepresented group, or the criteria for establishing that. Also, the words are "marginalized and otherwise underrepresented", not "marginalized and underrepresented". Anyway, systematic barriers or no, I would have to imagine that evangelical Christians are indeed underrepresented in... whatever they're supposed to be underrepresented in (the MediaWiki community?). Yaron Koren (talk) 13:17, 18 March 2016 (UTC)


 * The wording implies that targeted outreach to non-marginalized groups is not allowed. --Tgr (WMF) (talk) 07:11, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
 * The tricky part there is where is the line between "outreach specifically to non-marginalized groups" and "discrimination against the marginalized groups by making them ineligible for your outreach program"? I don't know the answer to that. Or, for that matter, where there might be a line between "outreach" and "something more than outreach" that even a minority-targeted program could fall afoul of. Anomie (talk) 13:40, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Tricky questions should be left to the committee to decide on a case by case basis, instead of trying to answer them in the code of conduct. But the current wording sounds like a wholesale ban of outreach to non-marginalized groups. --Tgr (WMF) (talk) 17:47, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
 * As I read it, it bans organizing a hackathon for only boys, but allows for a hackathon for only girls. So your outreach is allowed to reach non-marginalized groups (NMG), it's just not allowed to target only the NMG. NMGs don't need something organised for just them (there is no reason to ristrict people from marginalized groups participating), while it can be empowering for a marginalized group to have some place where they are not marginalized. Valhallasw (talk) 21:30, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I've been slightly involved with a CS program doing outreach (I think it counts as outreach anyway) to schools before, and I believe that this would've been problematic for them because of the existence of single-sex education in the UK. But maybe schools would qualify as marginalised here because of under 18s? I don't oppose based on this, mainly because I doubt Wikimedia plans to do school-based outreach for technical things. -- Krenair (talk &bull; contribs) 21:51, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
 * My interpretation there would be that it's OK to work with those schools, as long as you work with both male-only and female-only schools. If you have to choose only one school to work with, choose a female-only school. Valhallasw (talk) 22:15, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Which would be fairly ridiculous. In the real world, you would pick schools based on their willingness to work with you, not ideological reasons. If the CoC gets in the way of that, that's a problem. --Tgr (WMF) (talk) 10:32, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I find it very unlikely you would be able to find a male-only school but no female-only school willing to work with you. The 'willing to work with you' argument is reminiscent of the 'but no women wanted to be on the panel' argument when there is another all-male panel at a conference. If you can't find any women for on your panel (and if you can't find a female-only school to work with) then you probably haven't tried hard enough to find them. Valhallasw (talk) 11:40, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Actually, I would think having a hackathon for boys only, whether through a same-sex school or otherwise, would be allowed - encouraged, even - because children as a whole are an underrepresented group in the MediaWiki community. Yaron Koren (talk) 23:23, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I would not be comfortable making armchair declarations like that, nor supporting a policy that makes armchair declarations like that. In any case, single-sex schools is not a particularly useful example; e.g. an invitation that is only understandable to Dutch speakers (because I only happen to speak Dutch) is targeted outreach to a non-marginalized group. There are a million valid reasons for a volunteer to limit outreach efforts to a specific non-underrepresented group; an organization like the WMF with significant legal, social and communications resources might be held to a higher standard but applying such a standard to volunteers is unreasonable. --Tgr (WMF) (talk) 01:38, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Support. I'm fine with either the proposed wording or Anomie's. Most of the oppose arguments above seem to be pretty thin strawmen, IMO. We all know what discrimination looks like, so there's no reason to try to invent absurd scenarios. Kaldari (talk) 21:29, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I assume you're grouping my question, "If someone were to organize a hackathon in the U.S. open to only evangelical Christians, would that be unacceptable or encouraged?", into the "absurd scenarios". It may be absurd, but it's still a simple question, and I have yet to hear anyone answer it in a way that doesn't directly contradict the proposed text. Since you think this issue is clear-cut, could you please answer the question? Yaron Koren (talk) 02:06, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I'd still like to hear whether targeted outreach to non-marginalized/underrepresented groups is considered discriminatory. If not, the sentence is phrased poorly and should be improved (e.g. by replacing "Targeted outreach to such groups is allowed and encouraged." with "Targeted outreach is not, in itself, considered discrimination."). If it is, I fail to see how pointing that out could be a strawman.
 * Suppose I want to organize a hackathon in Hungary, in Hungarian language. That is clearly an outreach activity targeted at Hungarian speakers - a group that is not marginalized, and I have no reason to believe it is particularly underrepresented. The current wording implies I am not allowed to do that. --Tgr (WMF) (talk) 09:37, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
 * per Kaldari. Greg (WMF) (talk) 21:59, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Awjrichards (WMF) (talk) 22:22, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
 * +1 to Kaldari AGomez (WMF) (talk) 22:54, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Enforcement issues
Should the following changes regarding enforcement be made?:
 * Remove "Project administrators and maintainers have the right and are expected to take action on any communication or contribution that violates this Code of Conduct."
 * Replace "Report the problem to the administrators, maintainers, or designated contacts of the space where the problem is happening." with "If you are at an event, report the problem to the event organizers, or a designated contact."
 * Add "Attempting to revert a decision of the Committee, e.g. unblocking someone during a period the Committee banned them" under "Unacceptable behavior" "Attempting to circumvent a decision of the Committee or appeals body, e.g. unblocking someone during a period the Committee banned them" (EDITED to adopt feedback from ongoing discussion; please express your opinion about this).

The goal is to make the process more effective and clear.

Several people have objected to the provision about administrators and maintainers. If the first and second points were adopted, people would still able to talk to maintainers informally. But the text wouldn't imply a formal obligation existed.

The third point is in order to prevent wheel wars. The draft already has reconsideration and appeals processes. Wheel wars should not substitute for that. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 01:43, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Consensus reached on the first two points. Some people raised concerns with the third, or suggested alternate wording, so there is a followup discussion on a new version at . Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 01:23, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * first two changes. Third one needs significant thought and work to ensure that only official committee-created blocks are enforced. Also remember that if a case is referred to someone acting on behalf of WMF (e.g. Developer Relations is mentioned), they cannot be allowed to control administrator decisions. -- Krenair (talk &bull; contribs) 02:03, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * The details of the appeals process (including appeals body) will be finalized later, but I think most people are supportive of an appeals process. It's true the current draft specifies Developer Relations as the appeal body.  If there is an appeals process, the appeals body (whoever it is) needs to have the ability to make decisions (otherwise, it's not really a meaningful appeal); the appeals body's authority will derive from the CoC. I've updated the proposed text accordingly. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 01:18, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
 * the first two changes, as per Krenair. As others have noted, project admins are in charge of code, not of people. I have no opinion on the third one. Yaron Koren (talk) 02:41, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * the first two changes, as per Krenair and Yaron Koren. -- Ricordi  samoa  04:53, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * OK with the first one, with the second one I would leave the option to report to space maintainers - i.e., if that happens in team's space, maybe team leader can handle it. On the third, "attempt" sounds like very broad and may include legitimate discussion and appeal to the Commission to reconsider, for example. I don't think it's unacceptable. Maybe it should be "Attempting to circumvent a decision of the Committee" so it's clear it is about things done outside of the process? --Smalyshev (WMF) (talk) 04:57, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Similarly, the first two, neutral on the third. Jmabel (talk) 04:59, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Second and third sounds reasonable (Smalyshev's wording is fine too). I would prefer keeping the first but rewording so that it doesn't suggest an obligation (e.g. replace "expected" with "encouraged"). --Tgr (WMF) (talk) 08:04, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * to the three points (although seeing the comments it might be worth to have an own section about the third). I have expressed my opinions about the added moral obligations of administrators and maintainers, but I'm fine removing that line. I think this point is more contentious in theory than in practice, and I see no point in keeping fighting about it.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 08:29, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * First and second points, regarding third one Smalyshev's wording seems better to me.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:34, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * . I think maintainers have a moral obligation to oppose harassment or bad behavior they witness. But people have raised some good points about some maintainers being untrained or reluctant to take on a formal role as enforcer, so I'm content to leave it an informal expectation for the moment.—Neil P. Quinn-WMF (talk) 02:08, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
 * With the new wording of #3. "Circumvent" captures what I think we should be saying much better. Re #1 and #2, ideally I'd like there to be something encouraging people to talk to administrators of virtual spaces, but I think that the current text is a bit too heavy-handed and that making the proposed changes would be better than not making them. --Roan Kattouw (WMF) (talk) 19:49, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
 * SSastry (WMF) (talk) 19:32, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Circumvention text new wording
Since some people already expressed their opinion before I put up the new text, this new talk page section is specifically about whether to add:

"Attempting to circumvent a decision of the Committee or appeals body, e.g. unblocking someone during a period the Committee banned them"

in Unacceptable behavior. This is based on Smalyshev (WMF)'s feedback, and also would clarify that the same applies to the appeals body. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 21:33, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
 *  Consensus reached. Strong consensus for these clarifications. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 19:14, 28 March 2016 (UTC)


 * as proposer. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 00:22, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Tfinc (talk) 17:30, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Smalyshev (WMF) (talk) 17:45, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * + moral duty. --Vituzzu (talk) 18:18, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I think that text is clear. MSchottlender-WMF (talk) 18:31, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * --Tgr (WMF) (talk) 06:53, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
 * per my comment above --Roan Kattouw (WMF) (talk) 21:05, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Kaldari (talk) 21:33, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Appeals/delegations
I've been thinking about this a bit more and am more unhappy with those references to a specific WMF team. What if WMF decides to disband the team? Will we necessarily be able to get an amendment to such a policy through to change it to a different group? I notice that it's already been reorganised a bit since this started, based on looking at Staff and contractors (and I'm not sure is so clearly defined now?). And what if someone on this team is involved in a matter before the committee? There's nothing in the CoI section about that. -- Krenair (talk &bull; contribs) 22:12, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, if the team were disbanded, the policy would have to be amended. Good point on the CoI section.  I've added text to the draft. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 23:16, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
 * The second parts of the confidentiality section will also need to address the appeals body, and probably other parts too. And since you're involving parts of the official WMF structure in this, we need to ensure it's explicitly excluding anyone they report to from being permitted to see anything private (except when required by procedures of the Code of Conduct itself or the law). -- Krenair (talk &bull; contribs) 01:46, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

I have also been thinking about this problem. One potential way to simplify the appeals / delegations part would be to detach the different parts, and solve each in a specific way:

Appeals can have these possibilities:
 * Appeals go to the same CoC, with new arguments.
 * Appeals go to a WMF body, say a group of identified Community Engagement members that could be renewed based on their personal circumstances (i.e. leaving the WMF)
 * Appeals go to another body, e.g. the admins of the space where the problem occurred, the Architecture Committee, the Board...

About delegations, what if we would differentiate between receiving support for a case and actually delegating it? The Support and Safety team handles cases to protect the safety and integrity of people. If a reported situation reaches those levels, then it is probably a good idea to delegate the case to them, the experts. If a reported situation is complex but doesn't reach those levels of severity, then the CoC committee should be still able to handle it, but they could ask for support.

Combining both factors, I think the best solution might be to have a group of a few (three?) Community Engagement members with roles / skills related to this area, that would help the committee in complex situations. They could also advise the committee when a case should be delegated to Support & Safety.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 22:03, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Nine months
This document has been under discussion for nine months. In that time involvement by non-WMF employees has dropped to virtually zero (most recent votes on changes have included 100% WMF employee participation). Can discussion please be closed and the document marked as not issued? There is no evidence or research to suggest that the draft process and committee would be effective in ensuring an improved on-line environment, that volunteers would feel safer from harassment, or whether volunteers would gain new risks from arbitrary claims of harassment by applying the process. Compared to actively promoting established safe space policies, the draft is heavy handed and heavily bureaucratic. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 17:10, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree. Not only that I see no evidence that the WMF can or would support it. Especially in light of recent events I totally agree that IRC needs to be included in the WMF's policies, but that can and should be done with existing policies and guidelines, not in new ones. Reguyla (talk) 16:42, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
 * It became clear to me some months ago that this was a WMF venture. Indeed, it transpires that it is a Phabricator task for various WMF teams T90908 and there is a related blocker T126605; and there is a hint as to the dynamic behind this effort at meta:Talk:Technical_Collaboration.  So the appropriate procedure from now will be for WMF staff to work on completing it, perhaps with some comments from volunteers, possibly even taken into account, and then promulgated to the community.  The only remaining question is, will that promulgation take the form of a request for comments, a request for endorsement, or simply as a fait accompli?  I note that the closely related issue of Event Ban policy was promulgated in the form of a WMF policy with no visible community involvement.  It is perhaps strange that since that policy and this code of conduct will inevitably interact, there has been no attempt that I can see to align the two initiatives.  However, I am sure that staff time and effort is available to complete this task to the satisfaction of the community.  Given the length of time that has already been spent on this, and the important tasks that it blocks on Phabricator, perhaps an explicit timeline could be published here as well as at T90908.  If on the other hand that effort is not going to be available from the WMF on a realistic timescale, then the discussion and the document should be closed down.  That would be a shame for all sorts of reasons, but we understand that there are limits to the resources of the WMF.  Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 09:23, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

There is an escape though: given some WMF employees want this so much, this could be morphed into a self-regulation code for WMF employees, approved either by referendum among themselves or simply by individual opt-in. (Of course people less versed in office politics may see a risk in joining; but whoever joins could still wear the "code of conduct badge" and feel proud.) The only question then would be whether to accept complaints from people who are not subject to the regulation. Nemo 14:29, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

If this document has been under discussion for months it's because there continues to be something interesting to be discussed. Wikimedia is full of dead proposals. The promoters of this CoC are taking the time that is needed to have the best CoC we can provide to this community. We are taking participation and criticism seriously, and this requires time. There has been progress every month. Most of the topics discussed (i.e. the definition of inappropriate behavior) are not WMF specific. We are responding to criticism and good ideas regardless of signatures and affiliations. --Qgil-WMF (talk) 21:36, 26 March 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm so glad to hear that you feel that there is something interesting to discuss. The object of this exercise, though, is not to have interesting discussions but to deliver something, namely a code of conduct that is fair, workable, acceptable to and accepted by the community, and improves the effectiveness of collaboration in technical spaces.  If we date the explicit requirement for this code as coming from T87773, which was later merged into T90908, then it dates back to January 2015.  March 2016 seems rather late to still be having these first stage discussions.  It is clear that some kind of schedule is necessary, otherwise these interesting discussions will continue indefinitely.  Is anyone prepared to take responsibility for drawing up the schedule and driving this forward to the next stage, whatever that may be?
 * It would also be good to hear what is meant by "provide to the community". Does this mean that when the current stage of discussion is over, by whatever criterion, that the code will be imposed on the community by WMF authority?  Or will it be remitted to the community for acceptance or not as it stands?  Or will it be the subject of a further indefinite period of interesting discussions by a much wider group of volunteers?  What are the plans for the implementation, and who is responsible for delivering it?
 * Finally let me point out, what is clear from Phabricator, that delivery of this code is seen as blocking T124288 "Communication channels between communities and teams involved in the product development process" which in turn is blocking T124022 "Goal: Clarify community engagement in WMF product development process". Considering that the WMF has been struggling with the last of these for some years, that the failure to do so has led on several occasions to dissenson within the community and the WMF, and to the signficiant waste of donor time and volunteer effort, it seems that we can no longer afford the luxury of indefinitely protracted discussions, however interesting, leading to indefinite delay in delivering this code.  Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 08:22, 27 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Believe me, the promoters of this CoC would like to have a text approved and a committee formed as soon as possible. Too long conversations may be an expensive problem indeed, but what is the alternative? At the Developer Relations team we tried to set a time frame by making "Code of Conduct for technical spaces approved, committee created" a quarterly goal for October - December 2015. We missed that goal, but we didn't regret it. The WMF pushing a community discussion with a deadline may become a much worse problem, as we have seen in other situations. Making this CoC a blocker of other goals is a more flexible way to express the relevance and urgency of this task. I'm looking forward to have a good enough version approved, to supersede the current ad hoc approaches to reports, and to be fine tuned with real experiences if needed.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 12:58, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree the code needs to be delivered. Work is actively ongoing to that end, as you can see here.  As Quim says, we're going to keep it moving, but we're not going to rush it.  This work did not start January 2015, but rather July 2015.  Further, the discussions right now are certainly not first stage.  We are done with everything from 1.1 to 1.5 (Code of Conduct page), except 1.2, which is almost done.  The remaining sections will be worked on more soon.  T90908 is assigned to me, and I am driving it forward.  However, I appreciate that a lot of people (volunteers and staff) are working on it collaboratively.  This project has taken a lot of hard work by many people. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 00:58, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
 * FWIW the Contributor Covenant (probably the most widely used community code of conduct document) took nine months from initiation to 1.0 (and then two more years to the current version), so our speed does not seem extraordinarily slow. --Tgr (WMF) (talk) 08:38, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm glad to hear that you feel the rate of progress is acceptable. I do not.  It would be reassuring to hear that there was a definite timeline, but apparently that is not regarded as necessary.  I have already asked what the next stage will be after this discussion has evolved an agreed text.  Will it be remitted to the community at large for a further indefinite discussion?  Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 21:03, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Explicit connections to Event Ban Policy
As Rogol has pointed out on Meta Wiki, there is also a draft Event Ban policy. Since both of these policy documents cover similar domains, it would be ideal if each contains some commentary about how it relates to the other. -Pete F (talk) 18:10, 27 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Both documents are complementary, and I'm not sure they need to reference each other in their policy content. The CoC has a See also section, the Event Ban Policy has none.


 * This CoC is a proposal for a community policy applicable to online and offline technical spaces. The Event Ban Policy is a Wikimedia Foundation policy that covers all the events organized or funded by the WMF. This CoC defines a process through which community members might be banned. That policy defines how a community ban (i.e. by the Code of Conduct committee) could be enforced in WMF events if needed. CoC committee resolutions including bans should define the scope of those bans, and whether they include Wikimedia technical events or not. The Event Ban Policy defines a process for the WMF and the event organizers to assure that global and local bans are observed in their events.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 08:43, 31 March 2016 (UTC)


 * This proposal and the Event Ban Policy (more specifcally its process) both give instructions to event organisers as to what to do if an incident of harassment occurs at a meeting ("Attending an event from which one is banned is a form of harassment"). It would be helpful to ensure that both sets of instructions are consistent, and, if they are not, explain how to reconcile any inconsistency.  Of course, it might be that you regard it as entirely acceptable to issue inconsistent or even contradictory sets of instructions to event organisers: if so, you might like to say so explicitly for future reference.  Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 21:01, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
 * It's true that both (draft or approved) policies mention events. What inconsistency do you see? Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 21:28, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Your use of the word "mention" is curiously vague. Both this Code and the Event Ban Policy are intended to be in force simultaneously at certain types of event -- is this in dispute?  The attendance of a banned user at an event covered by this Code is deemed to be an act of harassment.  Simply walk through a simple scenario for yourself and decide whether or not the procedures laid down by this that draft you are proposing for dealing with an act of harassment are consistent with those laid down by the Event Ban policy process.  If the consensus among those drafting this code is that there is no inconsistency, then no doubt they will be happy to take responsibility for any problems that arise in practice.  Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 22:00, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
 * As far as I can see, the Event Ban Policy specifies what should happen when a banned user shows up at an event (i.e. 'call the police'). Showing up at an event is also a violation of the CoC, so there can be (further) sanctions imposed. If you see an inconsistency in that, please clarify what it is. Valhallasw (talk) 08:29, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I rather think that the onus is on those drafting this Code to consider the interaction with the existing policies in the areas where they overlap and explicitly address the issue of consistency. So far there appears to be no evidence that the people drafting this Code have considered the issue in any detail.  Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 10:01, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Rogol Domedonfors, I can only repeat that both documents are complementary. I see no conflict and no inconsistency. Could you provide an example of how these documents could conflict with each other?--Qgil-WMF (talk) 11:40, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
 * If you have considered the matter and are satisfied that the two processes are consistent, and are prepared to stand by that, then that is all that we can reasonably expect. Thank you.  Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 12:52, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Suggested addition: Date of enactment
While legally it is clear that this contract does not apply retroactively, to protect former contributors who cease their participation when these terms come into effect IMHO it is useful to add the date of enactment to the second sentence in the form of:

"It applies both within physical spaces, such as Wikimedia technical events and Wikimedia technical presentations in other events, and virtual spaces (MediaWiki.org, wikitech.wikimedia.org, Phabricator, Gerrit, technical mailing lists, technical IRC channels, and Etherpad) since 2016-mm-dd."

This reminds potential harassers that there is no basis for communication with former contributors, and if that doesn't stop them it spares victims from proving to law enforcement that they did not consent to any special agreements between them and the harasser.


 * --Tim&#160;Landscheidt 23:11, 31 March 2016 (UTC)


 * In what way does this "code" become a contract, especially in consideration that there is no exchange of property, at least for unpaid volunteers? --Fæ (talk) 17:39, 1 April 2016 (UTC)


 * A contract is the congruence of multiple declarations of intent. The consideration of this contract is not monetary or some property, but that other parties refrain from exercising their freedom of speech and submit themselves to the Committee.  --Tim&#160;Landscheidt 19:12, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
 * No, I think this is off-beam. I doubt it would be called a "contract" under UK law or US law (which requires a meaningful exchange of property to be enforced in court, otherwise it's just puffery about waiving legal rights to a "Committee" of unelected and unqualified amateurs), or represent the sort of proof for law enforcement you seem to be expecting. Adding a "date of enactment" appears to be wrapping an on-wiki guide in legalistic language that would be more likely to mislead contributors being harassed into thinking these are legal documents providing protection, or that the proposed committee has some sort of legal basis for authority. They are not and they are not intended to be "legal".
 * If they were, then it would be sensible to advise anyone setting up an account to consult an attorney before agreeing to a complex and open-ended "contract" that is likely to be amended or extended without official notice, and all accounts would have to be non-anonymous for the "contract" to be enforceable against identifiable individuals. --Fæ (talk) 12:21, 2 April 2016 (UTC)


 * If someone has questions about what they are agreeing to, I'd certainly advise to consult an attorney because if someone proposes to you a complex agreement it usually reflects their interests, not yours. But my concern are not the remaining contributors, but the ones who have left and may still be hit because at a glance this draft makes it sound as if all contributors to Wikimedia projects always consented to it, and that is not the case.  --Tim&#160;Landscheidt 18:06, 2 April 2016 (UTC)


 * It is clear that this is a WMF project -- it has been worked on almost entirely by WMF staff, it has been drawn up using WMF consultants whose report has not been revealed to the community, and it is linked to WMF team goals at T90908. It will presumably be implemented by WMF authority, on the basis that access to WMF servers, services and funds will require compliance with WMF rules, policies, terms and conditions.  I have asked for clarification on whether the community will be invited to discuss the Code before it is formally promulgated, and whether they will be asked to approve it, but no-one seems willing to say that either of those will happen.  As with the overlapping Event Ban policy, I think we may expect that, once completed to the satisfaction of WMF staff, it will simply be brought into force without further ado.  Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 21:19, 2 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Matthew has described the approval process on : "When the last section is completed and approved on the talk page, the Code of Conduct will become policy and no longer be marked as a draft." --Tim&#160;Landscheidt 22:13, 2 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks for pointing that out -- I am a little surprised that the question I asked here about the next steps should have been answered elsewhere, on a list I don't subscribe to, without at least a cross-reference on this page. But I suppose that WMF staff are very busy, and at least the answer is now public.  I dispute the wording community approval through the discussions on each section in that email: for the reasons I outlined already in this thread, and from my own experiences, this Code has not been approved by the community in any real sense.  It has been developed almost entirely by WMF staff, with minor input from non-staff volunteers, with parts of the discussion hidden from community view, and approved by WMF staff.  It is a WMF policy, imposed on the community by WMF action.  Why trouble to disguise that fact?  Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 11:18, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry, you're right. I intended to post that here as well, but I forgot.  I've now posted it on Phabricator as well:

We’ve gotten good participation as we’ve worked on sections of the Code of Conduct over the past few months, and have made considerable improvements to the draft based on your feedback.

Given that, and the community approval through the discussions on each section, the best approach is to proceed by approving section-by-section until the last section is done.

So, please continue to improve the Code of Conduct by participating now and as future sections are discussed. When the last section is completed and approved on the talk page, the Code of Conduct will become policy and no longer be marked as a draft.
 * Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 21:25, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Regarding your other statement, your characterization of this as a WMF policy is not accurate. Anyone can see for themselves how this draft has changed extensively over a period of months due to both volunteer and staff involvement.  This started at a public meeting at the Wikimania Hackathon, and everyone has had continuous opportunities to participate since then.  Ultimately, people (especially volunteers) are going to work on the projects they want to and have time to work on.  Trying to dismiss the process due to a claimed lack of volunteers does not reflect that reality of how communities operate. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 21:28, 5 April 2016 (UTC)


 * I do not see what else you can call it. The volunteer involvement has been small; almost all the discussion and wording has come from WMF staff; two of the top three non-staff by contribution count are explicitly repudiating the claim of volunteer consensus in this very thread; almost all the declarations of consensus have been made by WMF staff members on the basis of discussions overwhelmingly involving other WMF staff members; some discussions were taken off this page to Phabricator without notification here; some of the input has been from WMF consultants commissioned by and reporting to WMF staff in a report not yet seen by volunteers; some of the input has been mandated by WMG Legal; the code will be overseen by a WMF team as final authority; promulgating the Code is a formal WMF team goal on Phabricator.  To say that is a WMF policy rather than a community consensus is not to "dismiss the process", it is to describe it.  You may wish it were otherwise, but to adopt your own wording, to call this a community consensus does not reflect reality.  Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 21:12, 6 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Rogol Domedonfors, the ownership of a policy is defined by who is invited to participate, not by the percentage of people that decide to participate. If we would have been after a WMF policy, we would have taken a very different approach and, say, after a review period of 30 days, we would have enacted it. Yet here we are, progressing at community speed, inviting the technical communities to participate in every new section, in every new decision, seeking community consensus as reasonably as we can. Besides, as I have said before, most of the topics being discussed are not WMF related. The definition of what constitutes unacceptable behavior (the most discussed topic by far) does not depend on whether you are volunteer or staff.
 * The fact is that the Wikimedia technical community is the only one where the percentage of WMF employees is a lot higher. While WMF employees can be community members of en.wiki etc only in their personal volunteer capacity (since we are explictly discouraged to edit articles from our WMF accounts), WMF employees working on technical projects are community members at Wikimedia tech in their full right, they may become (and frequently become) admins, maintainers, and organizers of other community activities. WMF employees working in tech projects also spend plenty of time in online & offline Wikimedia technical spaces, and therefore they are clear users of this CoC, either as potential offenders or potential victims. Therefore, would you agree that the participation in this discussion of WMF employees working in Wikimedia technical spaces is at least as relevant as the participation of volunteers who are rarely active in Phabricator, Gerrit, technical mailing lists as wikitech-l, technical events, or here at mediawiki.org?--Qgil-WMF (talk) 05:43, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
 * You've gone off on a tangent here, but I note that you made a list in your question which is different to the CoC scope, I presume you had your reasons for doing so. The CoC includes "technical IRC channels, and Etherpad" and any event where "Wikimedia technical presentations" might be given (I presume this means given by WMF employees). Though there is a link on the word IRC, I do not believe for one minute that the intention is to limit the CoC to MediaWiki IRC channels, and Etherpad is widely used for almost any meeting or discussion. If you include those applicable spaces, then no, you cannot claim that WMF employees are the majority of participants and therefore must dominate the decision to implement this CoC and be obliged to comply with a WMF appointed Committee's decisions of who to ban or put on a secret list (this from the latest event ban document). --Fæ (talk) 09:08, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not claiming that "WMF employees are the majority of participants and therefore must dominate the decision to implement this CoC". I'm just saying that WMF employees working on technical projects are regular users of Wikimedia technical spaces, regular members of the Wikimedia technical community, and therefore their opinions count just as much, regardless of affiliation.
 * Look, I'm the first one willing to have a higher participation of technical volunteers, WMDE tech members, and people with other affiliations. I actually spend a significant amount of time asking them directly. However, what else can we do to increase this participation, in addition to all what we are doing already? We cannot pull their tongues or fingers. We cannot blame the WMF employees stepping by their own initiative for participating either. Reading some of the comments it sounds as if we are discriminating or censoring the participation of non-WMF people in this process. It is not the case, quite the opposite.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 10:08, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
 * It seems rather late to ask that question. If you go back in the archive to 19 September 2015, you will find that I requested "could the owner of the stakeholder list and the communications plans for those stakeholders post links to them" .  A member of WMF staff responded "I think the current tactics drafting here and pinging wikitech-l is good enough until we have a version of the draft we are happy about. Then we can make the big call, knowing that more ideas will come, more criticism will come, and more edits are likely to come."   The requested communications plan was never published, but presumably the person who posted that response had one in mind.  It was around that time that the involvement by WMF staff accelerated and fairly soon non-staff contributers were explicitly stating that they were feeling overwhelmed.  There is no question of "blame" here, merely a recognition that, whatever the original aspirations, the Code as it stands is in practice a creation of WMF staff and will be imposed and supported by the authority of the WMF.  What's so bad about that?  Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 21:09, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Re "I presume this means given by WMF employees", that is not correct. Everything in the intro and "Unacceptable behavior" sections of the draft applies to both staff and volunteers, without exception.  So it does not matter who is giving the presentation.  Regarding, "I do not believe for one minute that the intention is to limit the CoC to MediaWiki IRC channels", as the text says, it applies to technical IRC channels.  So there are some channels connected to the Wikimedia movement that would not be covered, but technical channels like #wikimedia-dev, #mediawiki-parsoid, etc. etc. would clearly be covered. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 04:21, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Please provide a link to the definitive list of IRC channels this CoC applies to. At the moment "etc. etc." seems to be whatever a WMF employee would like it to be and may or may not include project channels, OTRS channels, admin channels, any channel with "Wikimedia" in it, etc. etc. --Fæ (talk) 18:02, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 * ✅ --Qgil-WMF (talk) 08:42, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry, not really done. In defining technical mailing lists, you have linked to a section with several subsections. This includes lists like wikimedia-medicine and wikidata-tech. As far as I am aware the users of those lists have no interest in applying this CoC and therefore being governed by a committee that they have not voted for.
 * I presume that for the many IRC channels listed in IRC/Channels#MediaWiki_and_technical, the channel notices will be changed so that anyone joining those channels is aware that this CoC applies to their behaviour in those IRC channels and any text that may be interuptive or offensive might result in a global ban if the Committee thinks it's appropriate?
 * Lastly, what about Etherpad? Surely this CoC can only apply to when Etherpad is being used to support relevant events or discussions. If someone wants to use Etherpad to rant about something to one of their mates, why would anyone care or for that matter know? Unless the WMF keeps logs of every etherpad discussion after it is deleted, a general policy cannot apply to every Etherpad instance. --Fæ (talk) 11:46, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
 * This specific discussion is going too far away from the subject of this section. If you want to continue it, please create a new section. If a Wikimedia list is technical, then it is a Wikimedia technical space. That is a simple principle. How to reach these mailing lists is being discussed in another section. Adding notices in Wikimedia technical IRC channels explaining that they are covered by the CoC is a good idea. https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/ being within the scope of this CoC means that if soemone is being harassed through this medium in the context of Wikimedia technical work, that action can be reported.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 08:51, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Problems in the Wikimedia tech communities
I have been asking people about their opinions on the CoC at the Wikimedia Hackathon 2016, especially among volunteers that haven't participated here. The replies could be mainly classified in two groups: "about time -- sorry that I couldn't follow all the discussion" and "right, but is there really a problem...?". Since there have been some questions about the types of problems we have in our technical spaces, let me share what can be shared without risking privacy issues or reviving past situations.

Relying on my memory (since we are not keeping records systematically), in the past three years the Developer Relations team (before Engineering Community Team) has dealt with issues related to these points mentioned in the CoC draft:
 * Personal attacks, violence, threats of violence, or deliberate intimidation.
 * Offensive, derogatory, or discriminatory comments.
 * Gratuitous or off-topic use of sexual language or imagery.
 * Inappropriate or unwanted attention, touching, or physical contact (sexual or otherwise).
 * Inappropriate or unwanted public or private communication, following, or any form of stalking.
 * Unwanted photography or recording.
 * Harming the discussion or community with methods such as sustained disruption, interruption, or blocking of community collaboration (i.e. trolling).

There might have been other types of unacceptable behavior that I don't recall right now, or that were not reported to our team. Since "talk with Andre and Quim" is not an official process, it may well be that newcomers and other non-core contributors won't find a way to share incidents affecting to them. We have also received reports about other types of conduct that we considered out of scope of what the CoC defines as unacceptable behavior.

Andre and I have been dealing with these incidents with the best of our knowledge and intentions, without a process or framework, sometimes with help of other people that we have reached out for advice. Sometimes the problems are quickly resolved when we talk with the parties involved, sometimes the problems are more complex, and we do miss an agreed definition and a reporting process like the CoC proposes.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 08:18, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I wonder if we can have some reporting for this. From what I understand, since most complaints are handled privately, "is there really a problem" is a common question. If we could have some kind of generic report - e.g., "last month we dealt with 2 complaints of type X and 2 of type Y. We implemented following resolutions: one stern looking at, one reprimand and one ban, and one complaint did not require further action." - or something in this vein, it would be easier for people to appreciate what we're talking about, what is going on, which remedies are usually necessary, etc. Of course, the privacy should be preserved and no details with PII or such should ever be published, but I think non-specific statistics would still be useful. Smalyshev (WMF) (talk) 20:03, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Process
It looks like I could have been a little clearer in my previous comment regarding the approval process. I meant that the draft text (the parts we've gone through so far) has been approved by community consensus, not that the Code of Conduct was already in force as policy. As stated before, it will become policy in conjunction with the discussion approving the last section of text. Before this, everyone will be able to work together as we finalize and approve the remaining parts of the draft. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 04:40, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 * That seems weird. So the right way of showing my opposition to the whole Code of Conduct is to oppose the last section? -- Ricordi  samoa  08:36, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 * So you've taken discussions about deciding what is okay to go into the draft, and have decided that they are community approval for the text to become policy when each other part of the page is similarly voted on? Sorry, but no, that's not approved by community consensus. -- Krenair (talk &bull; contribs) 16:39, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Logically this is nonsense. --Fæ (talk) 18:04, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 * As I indicated in a previous section, back in September the expectation was that the final draft of the Code would be submitted to the community for review and approval. It appears that at some stage WMF staff decided that this final step would be omitted: that is, that the Code would come into force as soon as it was complete.  Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 20:31, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Hey folks. I think having an additional discussion/vote on the entire CoC at once would be fairly redundant at this point.  It would also be an impractical way of dealing with additional feedback.  Furthermore, everyone has had a considerable amount of time to weigh in here, whether to provide holistic or section-specific feedback. I JethroBT (WMF) (talk) 18:59, 12 April 2016 (UTC)


 * I disagree. There doesn't need to be a further discussion, there only a final proposal with a yes/no vote whether it should take effect or not. I don't think it's redundant either -- asking someone to actively contribute over many months versus voting on a final proposal is very different in terms of effort spent. Finally, I think a vote is necessary to legitimize the code of conduct -- if it just 'becomes policy', the policy will keep an air of 'forced by the WMF'. A vote would show the community as a whole supports the policy. Valhallasw (talk) 21:24, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

"marginalized" and "underrepresented"
Can we get any clarity on how it would be determined whether a group is "marginalized" and/or "underrepresented"? And, for that matter, what counts as a "group"? Yaron Koren (talk) 16:46, 12 April 2016 (UTC)


 * since you shepherded this text into the Code of Conduct, surely you can shed some light on the meaning of these words? Yaron Koren (talk) 17:40, 18 April 2016 (UTC)


 * I don't think this is a place to discuss Social Theory. If a report of discrimination is presented and the reporter or anyone else declares that a reason for discrimination is being the relation of the alleged victim with (name a marginalized or otherwise underrepresented group here), then the Committee will study the accusation. I have added an entry to the FAQ.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 09:17, 2 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I don't think this is a theoretical discussion - the current code of conduct specifies that any group-specific outreach program is either encouraged (is the group is marginalized or underrepresented) or banned (if it's anything else). So how do we know which it will be? Yaron Koren (talk) 13:21, 2 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Can you provide a realistic example where the current wording gets in the way of solving a problem?--Qgil-WMF (talk) 13:28, 2 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Sure. There have already been three theoretical cases brought up of MediaWiki-related outreach efforts where it's not clear whether the WMF would encourage or penalize such efforts:
 * For Hungarian speakers in Hungary
 * For evangelical Christians in the United States
 * At an all-boys school in the United Kingdom. Yaron Koren (talk) 13:53, 2 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Outreach efforts to targeted groups are always allowed. In the case of marginalized and otherwise underrepresented groups, they are even encouraged. The three examples you have provided would clearly be compatible with the Code of Conduct.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 14:11, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * That is not what the CoC says (and it was not added to it, despite explicit requests). It says discrimination is forbidden but "targeted outreach to [marginalized and otherwise underrepresented] groups is allowed and encouraged". --Tgr (WMF) (talk) 15:45, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The CoC says that discrimination is unacceptable behavior. Organizing a workshop for Hungarian speakers in Hungary is not discrimination, and the CoC doesn't suggest so. Organizing a workshop where someone is not accepted for being Hungarian, that is discrimination.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 17:30, 2 May 2016 (UTC)


 * What about the other two examples? Yaron Koren (talk) 17:59, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * It is not discrimination to organize a workshop for evangelical Christians, it is not discrimination to organize a workshop at an all-boys school... The Wikimedia movement is organizing workshops targeted to specific audiences all the time. Discrimination is usually detected not through who is invited, but who is excluded and why.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 18:45, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Other people on this talk page have written the opposite - that yes, these are examples of discrimination. One of them is Neil P. Quinn (here) - who interestingly enough is the author of the current anti-discrimination text in the code of conduct. How do we know whom to believe? And maybe just as importantly, perhaps the fact that there's this kind of disagreement and misunderstanding of the meaning suggests that the current wording needs work? Yaron Koren (talk) 19:14, 2 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I think you are misreading Neil's statement. He wrote: "It would only allow closed programs for them if they were marginalized" (emphasis mine). As Qgil noted, it's not about who are invited, it's about who you are excludin -- hence the qualification closed. Valhallasw (talk) 20:13, 2 May 2016 (UTC)


 * ... and this is where I insist that discussions based on theoretical and statistically unlikely scenarios lead to nowhere, because this is not math but social relationships. In a real world scenario someone would organize such workshop for evangelical Christians and someone would report a case of discrimination. If the Evangelical Church of X is organizing a MediaWiki workshop in their church facilities to their congregation, that in itself is not discrimination. If someone was interested in participating but was not accepted for not belonging to that congregation, then we have a possible case of discrimination. If someone from that congregation was not accepted for being black / gay, etc, then this is a clear case of discrimination.
 * But... in my humble opinion this discussion is basically akin to bikeshedding. In all these years of MediaWiki, how many workshops targeted to a specific social group can you count?--Qgil-WMF (talk) 19:59, 2 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't call this "bikeshedding", since the text of the code of conduct is the subject of discussion here. Probably "nitpicking" would have been the better word. But to answer that - I don't like binding text where the best defense for it is "don't worry, it doesn't matter". If the concept of "marginalized" and "underrepresented" groups is so unlikely to become an issue that these words don't even need to be defined, why have them there in the first place? Why does a technical community need to get into (as you rightly called it) "social theory" at all? You can't have it both ways - either this wording matters or it doesn't. Yaron Koren (talk) 21:15, 2 May 2016 (UTC)


 * The wording of the draft matters, because discrimination against marginalized and otherwise underrepresented groups exists in our societies and it is sadly not difficult to find. But this is not what this section is about. The scenarios presented here are about outreach to non-marginalized and non-underrepresented groups, and whether they constitute discrimination, to which I have replied that no, by default these don't constitute discrimination. If your main interest is to prevent harassment and to defend victims of discrimination, this reply should be good enough to agree and move forward. Or at least I fail to see how following your line of argument helps defending better potential victims of discrimination.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 22:28, 2 May 2016 (UTC)


 * My main interest is in making sure that volunteers don't get penalized due to unclear or poorly-thought-out rules. (Looking at the comments made on this page by non-WMF employees, it appears that I'm not the only one with this interest.) A few points: evangelical Christians are a highly-underrepresented group, in my opinion, though others may disagree. That's part of why I brought up that example: there's ambiguity even about a seemingly straightforward concept like underrepresentation; and given that the policy now is apparently not to define these words at all, that may continue to be a problem. Second, as I noted before, your interpretation of the text disagrees with those of others; which I think brings up the real chance that the "moderation committee" or whatever they're called will also disagree with you. Less ambiguous wording would fix that problem. Yaron Koren (talk) 00:38, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I disagree. I think that less ambiguous wording would only contribute to wiki-lawyering. We all know what discrimination looks like; there's no reason to argue about absurd examples that are never going to happen (like evangelical Christians). I'm sure the Committee can find a reasonable interpretation when and if the time comes. Kaldari (talk) 00:44, 3 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if you mean that discrimination against evangelical Christians is an absurd concept, or an outreach program to them is; I'm guessing the latter. But fine, let's say it's an absurd example. And let's say the boys'-school hackathon is, too (I don't think it is). How about this one, then: the Google Summer of Code. It's an outreach program that only accepts college students, which is in a sense doubly discriminatory, because you not only have to be a certain age, you have to be paying for college, which in many cases is a significant financial outlay. I think one would be hard-pressed to describe college students as either marginalized or underrepresented. (Though again, these are undefined terms, so who knows.) I'd be interested to hear your response to that. Yaron Koren (talk) 13:36, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The current draft, under "inappropriate behavior", has one bullet point which says "Discrimination (unless required by law), particularly against marginalized and otherwise underrepresented groups. Targeted outreach to such groups is allowed and encouraged." It does not disallow outreach programs in general and it does not disallow outreach programs that are not targeting such groups. Hence I'm afraid I cannot follow the Summer of Code example being brought up. --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 14:36, 3 May 2016 (UTC)


 * The bullet point disallows discrimination, except for two cases (legal requirement and targeted outreach to, etc.). GSoC discriminates, and is not (as far as I know) covered by either of those cases. Ergo, the bullet point disallows GSoC. Am I wrong? Yaron Koren (talk) 15:03, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Ah, that's clearer, thanks! There can be general (unfocused) outreach and there can be focused outreach by defining a target group based on exclusive criteria (e.g. being a student). I don't consider the latter discrimination per se, as you could also participate in Wikimedia's technical spaces without having to take part in Google's SoC (with its eligibility criteria). If the eligibility criteria of a specific outreach program make someone feel discriminated, the person could bring it up to the organizers of that outreach program (Google in case of Summer of Code) or is free to run their own outreach program with different eligibility criteria. --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 16:13, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * This is simplistic. An LGBT event that was publicised as LGBT only, a Women's editathon restricted to women, or a BEM event where "non-minorities" could not take part, are all highly problematic and could easily lead to later claims of discrimination that would be hard to defend as "targeted outreach". Having events focused on minority group interests without stopping any collegiate individual from contributing is what normally goes on, and hardly anyone can disagree with that approach, but each of the three examples has been suggested in the past for targeted editathons or virtual discussion, and for all I know might have happened under the control of a local chapter. --Fæ (talk) 16:30, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Fæ - you make a good point; it's another way in which the sloppiness of the current wording can lead to problems later on. As I noted before, it's not only the words "underrepresented" and "marginalized" that are poorly defined here, but also "outreach".
 * AKlapper - if outreach is never discrimination, why are the words "to such groups" in there? Yaron Koren (talk) 17:14, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I personally do not know why the words "to such groups" are in there, sorry. --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 19:34, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

If you find a case of discrimination in Wikimedia's participation in Google Summer of Code, please report it. In all these years I don't recall any problem of this kind.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 19:36, 3 May 2016 (UTC)


 * It discriminates against non-college students. Should that be reported? Yaron Koren (talk) 19:52, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * "Google Summer of Code is a global program focused on bringing more student developers into open source software development." It's an outreach activity that helps bringing people related to underrepresented groups in our developer community. Wikimedia's participation in this program hasn't been questioned by anybody for reasons of discrimination in all these years. I don't see any real problem posed by your question.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 20:31, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm glad that no one has questioned it, but that's irrelevant: it seems like it would be banned by the current wording, unless I'm missing something. Yaron Koren (talk) 20:42, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are missing the basic point about the goal of this CoC being "fostering an open and welcoming community" and "making participation in Wikimedia technical projects a respectful and harassment-free experience for everyone". Under this perspective your examples about GSoC and other hypothetical outreach activities pose no real doubts. This section feels exhausted and there is so much work to do.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 21:57, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * If WMF's participation in GSoC has not been questioned in the past and this Code of Conduct draft prohibits it, that is a solid indicator that these rules do not not change the status quo. If the here repeatedly implied "solution" is that in those cases the Code of Conduct will not be enforced, this directly contravenes the stated goal that it applies to everyone equally.  It also raises the fear that this Code of Conduct will be used for harassment in that it will be enforced for some "offenders" and waived for others depending on which groups they belong to.  --Tim&#160;Landscheidt 22:29, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I do not see how Summer of Code would be banned by the current wording or how the current wording would prohibit Summer of Code. I disagree that an outreach program "discriminates" just by being targeted outreach. Also see my previous comments in this thread. --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 07:20, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Yaron, Tim, you are basing your argumentations in false dilemmas. The fact is that Wikimedia's participation in GSoC has made our community more open, welcoming, and diverse. It is also a fact that GSoC has explicit rules of conduct which fit with our goal of making participation in Wikimedia technical projects a respectful and harassment-free experience for everyone. If what you care about is conduct problems in Wikimedia technical spaces, then there is no conduct problem with GSoC and our other developer outreach activities. I have left a summary at Code_of_Conduct/Draft/FAQ.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 07:28, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Qgil - you'll get no argument from me that GSoC is a great program, but it's totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand, which is whether the anti-discrimination clause in the CoC would ban GSoC. Perhaps you're missing the main point, which is that this isn't intended as a criticism of GSoC, but rather of that section of the CoC, which, through sloppy wording, could possibly end up (among other things) accidentally ending our participation in a popular program.
 * AKlapper - as noted before, the presence of the phrase "to such groups" seems to directly contradict your interpretation of the wording. Yaron Koren (talk) 13:40, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm glad that we agree that GSoC is a great program. It is a very relevant aspect to this discussion, actually. Andre and I (both former GSoC co-organizers, and both handling conduct reports in our WMF Technical Collaboration roles) don't see how the CoC wording would motivate a CoC committee to "possibly end up (among other things) accidentally ending our participation in a popular program". That section of the CoC has been reviewed twice, and that exact line has been reviewed and discussed and approved. Let's move on. The CoC is a living document, if any sentence in it proves to be problematic with real cases, we will be able to contest it and amend it. Discussing hypothetical cases like a crazy committee banning Wikimedia's participation in GSoC on the grounds of discrimination to non-college students is not the best use of our time.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 09:22, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't take a "crazy" committee, just a committee that didn't apply en:WP:IAR to the text of the CoC and didn't accept "college students" as being a group that is somehow marginalized or underrepresented. It's a very similar situation to the recent news about Oklahoma's "forcible oral sodomy" law, where the court had to rule in a way no one liked because that's the way the law was written. Anomie (talk) 13:28, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, exactly. Qgil - the wording was lightly reviewed and hastily approved; now it's being reviewed with more scrutiny, and the consensus seems to be turning against it. Yaron Koren (talk) 13:43, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
 * No, I'm not, and writing your own FAQs to prove your arguments does not work. College students are not a marginalized or underrepresented group in the MediaWiki community (or even in many general populaces), not least because (IIRC) a college degree is mandatory for many (all?) WMF developer jobs.  This suggests on the other hand that   are underrepresented, and discriminating against them should be forbidden.
 * Also, your sentence: "The CoC is a living document, if any sentence in it proves to be problematic with real cases, we will be able to contest it and amend it." reflects exactly the "flexible" approach that in daily life forms the basis for discrimination and harassment. What makes GSoC a "great program" that is more important than non-discrimination other than that it introduces more people to the MediaWiki community who are like the ones already there?  What are the values that the Code of Conduct is trying to convey?
 * Finally, "let's move on" is IMHO not an acceptable attitude when discussing discrimination and harassment. It suggests to participants that they should be silent so that a sense of consensus can be pretended where it does not exist.  I am very thankful to Yaron and others that they continue to point out the flaws of this draft against a much more resourceful opposition.  --Tim&#160;Landscheidt 01:01, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the summary Tim. By the way, as this CoC is going to be bulldozed through regardless of whatever unpaid volunteers have to say about it, I'll be putting my name forward to sit on the Committee. I'll be happy to fully comply with the Committee's self-governance, but would be there to provide a viewpoint from someone not happy with the processes that created it or granted it significant authority over community members. --Fæ (talk) 11:28, 6 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I do not think there was ever a clear answer to the original question at the top of the thread how it would be determined whether a group is "marginalized" and/or "underrepresented"? This is not a matter of Social Theory, but a simple practical question.  If a complaint is laid against someone and the issue of whether one of the parties involved is or is not a member of a marginalised or underrepresented group, or whether a group they belong to is or is not marginalised or underrepresented, who is responsible for deciding that issue?  Is it the person claiming membership of the group in question?  Is it an individual member of the Committee acting ad hoc?  Is it the Committee acting ad hoc?  Is it the DevRel team?  Is it a community consenus after discussion in some forum, and if so, where?  Are such decisions, once made by whoever is authorised to make them, determined for all time, or just for the purposes of a specific case?  Is there a mechanism for making decisions before complaints are laid, or are these decisions to be purely reactive?  The Code as drafted appears to be silent on these matters, and yet the answers will be needed in order to resolve any cases brought under this heading.  Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 15:19, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I'd say this is covered by Code of Conduct/Draft. Are there specific aspects missing? --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 09:57, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes. The specific aspect missing is an answer to the question I posed, namely, who gets to say whether a given group is or is not marginalised and/or underrepresented.  Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 10:16, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
 * "Reports sent to techconduct@undefinedwikimedia.org are handled by the Code of Conduct Committee". Therefore, it is ultimately the Committee who decides whether discrimination against marginalized and otherwise underrepresented groups plays a role in a report.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 12:26, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
 * You're just restating the problem here - obviously, if anything is poorly defined in the code of conduct, the committee would have to decide what it means. But leaving it up to the committee to define various words seems like an awful idea: it makes more work for them, and it's undemocratic, in that it puts in the hands of a few people decisions that should rightfully be up to the whole community. Yaron Koren (talk) 14:18, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Quite so. The proposition that the decision on whether a group is M/U is made by the Committee because they are the people who handle the complaint is bad logic, and not improved by the patronisingly terse way it is expressed.  Having the Committee make the decision is a plausible option but by no means the only one: the proposal that the decision be in the hands of the community and that the Committee follow a decision already made by someone else is no less plausible.  My point is that the choice as to who makes the decision needs to be discussed explicitly, and so far that had not happened.   Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 17:27, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Rogol, you asked for an explicit answer to the question 'who gets to say whether a given group is or is not marginalised and/or underrepresented.' and you got an explicit answer. Calling that 'bad logic' is not conductive to a healthy debate. Valhallasw (talk) 20:06, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The response was in the form, not of an explicit statement, but of an apparently logical argument suggesting that the answer to the question could be deduced from the text of the Code. The apparent logic of the argument was flawed, so that the response was neither explicit, nor an answer.  Terse, patronising non-answers are, I suggest, less conducive to healthy debate than robust identification of logical fallacies.  Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 21:20, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The current draft counts more than my opinions, and this is why my replies are based on the draft whenever possible. According to the draft, reports sent to the Committee are confidential, and it is the task of the Committee to resolve them "eventually contacting any individuals involved and/or related administrators or project maintainers." If someone has a better answer, please share it.
 * For what is worth, I don't see how confidential reports of harassment combine well with public community discussions. I also don't take for granted that democratic processes and open community discussions are the perfect solution to deal with problems affecting specifically marginalized and underrepresented groups, and there is a thick historic record sustaining this reasoning.
 * But what is more important: again, what realistic problem are you trying to solve? Could you suggest a plausible example where the current draft would be troublesome? An example starting with a report submitted to the Committee, having a relation with a marginalized or underrepresented group that you could choose (say a transgender developer, or whatever you prefer). What problems would the current draft cause, and what alternative solutions do you propose?--Qgil-WMF (talk) 09:31, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * This question is frankly, a diversion. Either the Code assigns authority to some entity to determine the question of which groups are M/U or it does not.  If it does so explicitly, quote the line of the Code that assigns that authority.  If it does so implicitly, by necessary implication, make a valid logical argument.  If it does not at all, which I judge to be the case, then the issue remains in doubt.  I think that Qgil-WMF holds the position that it is implicit that the Committee has that authority, and I think his logic is faulty.  Discussing fictional scenarios will not resolve that.  As to why resolving this issue is important, the Code refers to this category of groups but without explaining which they are or who decides which they are.  The Committee will need that information to resolve complaints involving those cases.  One possible complaint might ask for additional sanctions in a case of discrimination because the complainant is a member of an M/U group; the subject of the complaint denies that the group is M/U.  Another might be that a person is excluded from an event which is targetted at a particular group.  The organisers claim that it is permitted as being outreach to a targetted M/U group; the complainant denies that the target group is M/U.   Where will they go for the information they need to resolve those complaints?  Who determines whether a group is M/U?  Is there an official list somewhere of such groups?  Of course not.  If the consensus is, that this must be a matter for the Committee's own judgement ad hoc without any guidance from the Community or anyone else, then they are left with responsibility but not authority, an untenable position.  It is very likely that anyone sanctioned under these provisions will wish to appeal, and may well do so on the grounds that the Committee's decision on the issue of whether a group is M/U was incorrect.  In such cases should the DevRel team be authorised to overrule the Committee or should they regard themselves as bound to follow the Committe's decision on this specific issue?  It seems to me important that the Committee should know what authority they have, and that the importance of that knowledge is sufficiently obvious from the broad classes of question I mention without diverting the discussion onto the fictional details of fictional scenarios as has already happened above.  Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 12:19, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with Rogol that these frequent protestations of "it doesn't matter what the wording is, it's never going to come up anyway" are a diversion - if some wording can't be defended on theoretical grounds, chances are that there's something wrong with the wording. But there are real-life use cases. At the risk of going down another rabbit hole: let's say someone lodges a complaint that they were discriminated against because they're Samoan. The committee finds that this was indeed the case, and then has to decide on the punishment - which, according to the CoC, has to be harsher if Samoans are a marginalized or underrepresented group. What should the committee do? Yaron Koren (talk) 15:31, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * "which, according to the CoC, has to be harsher" You lost me here Yaron. Why would the punishment be required to be harsher within a case of unacceptable behavior pertaining to discrimination than say a case pertaining to unwanted physical contact? I'm reading over the draft and I think I missed something. Honest question. :) Ckoerner (talk) 14:24, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I meant harsher than if the group were not marginalized or underrepresented. Yaron Koren (talk) 15:10, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Confidentiality
Some people will recall the prior requirement that WMF Legal raised earlier. I've updated the draft to handle this. Trust and Safety also required an additional change here, which only addresses the most serious of serious matters, where they are already involved today. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 20:28, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't think we should accept a code with this in it. -- Krenair (talk &bull; contribs) 20:46, 13 April 2016 (UTC)


 * We did not reach consensus on this issue, to say the least. The full discussion is here: Talk:Code_of_Conduct/Draft/Archive_1 and Talk:Code_of_Conduct/Draft/Archive_1. dumped the conclusion on us, but unfortunately did not elaborate on the WMFs position in the further discussion. Quoting myself:
 * "Why can't we just ask the victim whether they are OK with it? See Geek Feminism: Responding to reports and 'Why didn't you report it'. If the report is always sent to HR, it is very likely it will dissuade people from responding -- WMF HR is not generally seen as a neutral entity, and many people will assume HR and Legal will act to reduce liabilities for the Foundation rather than trying to solve the issue at hand, which triggers all the fears listed in the 'Why didn't you report it' post. Valhallasw (talk) 14:39, 1 September 2015 (UTC)"


 * Valhallasw (talk) 21:28, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
 * This does not appear thought out. What does "the Law" mean, just U.S. Law, or UK Law because the accused or accuser live in the UK and the UK has much stricter laws for on-line harassment? How can "the Law" apply to an international Committee of mixed WMF employees and unpaid volunteers as opposed to applying to the WMF (which seems far more likely) yet the Committee is under no particular obligation to behave as if it were under contract to the WMF? There are too many questions here for this to be understood by the people who are mandated to comply with it, just reading the words added. The longer this document becomes, the more holes seem to be fundamentally written into it. --Fæ (talk) 21:31, 13 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Just noting here that Ms. Baranetsky no longer works for the Wikimedia Foundation. It looks like she left in January 2016. --MZMcBride (talk) 03:42, 14 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Looking at the archive linked to above reminds me why I came to the conclusion last September that there was no point in my continuing to contribute to this discussion. I made these points in September and there was no response to them from WMF Legal.  It transpired that a member of WMF staff, in the course of reorganising the discussions, had taken it upon himself to tell WMF Legal that no response was required at that stage (nor, it would seem at any subsequent stage either).  However, whether or not the WMF Legal have considered these points, and whether or not they choose to share their reliberations with the community, the fact remains that this Code has been determined almost entirely by WMF staff and their confidential consultants, parts of it have been dictated directly by the WMF corporately, and it will be imposed on the volunteer community by WMF fiat.  If it transpires that the Code is legally defective, and exposes volunteers to legal risk due from issues of conflict of law that might have been, but were not, foreseen, then the WMF corporately will be responsible.  In a way that's reassuring.  How the WMF will react when (not if, but when) something goes amiss, and whether they will accept the consequences of their actions and inactions, remains to be seen.  Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 20:43, 14 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Hi all. We took another look at this section of the policy and wanted to clarify a previous statement made by WMF Legal. Given the participation by WMF employees and contractors in the technical community, it is likely for them to be a part of the Committee. Accordingly, we do think HR has an interest in knowing about the conduct of WMF staff, both if they are victims as well as if they are harassing others. The employees may in some instances be obligated to report allegations against or by staff to HR, so a policy prohibiting this would preempt WMF employee participation. We understand the concern that such a requirement holds the risk of deterring reporting with every exception to confidentiality. However, the HR team would be better positioned to act on the complaint and respond to any wrongdoing. Additionally, we hope that through actions like supporting this Code of Conduct policy, we will gain the trust of the community that we are dedicated to creating safe spaces for people on Wikimedia sites and are not interested in retaliating against good-faith complainants. Also, we want to apologize for the delay in responding to this discussion. As was mentioned above, Victoria Baranetsky left the Foundation shortly after posting her message and missed the discussion. Thank you for your patience here. MBrar (WMF) (talk) 23:50, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * What was the answer to my point of last September, repeated here, about potentially conflicting legal requirements in other jurisdictions? Have they been considered; is WMF Legal satisfied that these issues have been resolved; and what is that resolution?  Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 21:32, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi We understand this is a concern. Unfortunately, it’s one that’s difficult to respond to because the answer to what law applies to a given case can vary a lot. For example, some places apply the law of wherever an incident happened, while others apply the law of where the people involved lived, and others apply law if they think their state has a “significant interest” in the case. Because this is not a policy that applies strictly to the Wikimedia Foundation (since the committee will be run by volunteers) one can’t rely on using U.S. law because of the Foundation’s location either. Volunteers will need to ensure they follow the laws that are applicable to them, which most often means the place where you live. While we are not aware of any jurisdiction with any mandatory reporting requirements for a position like this, there might be some out there, so we understand why this provision is written as it is. We do want to emphasize that this isn’t a new issue. Arbcom, admins, and others who help keep the projects running all occasionally face this question, but the projects have been very successful over many years with systems of community management in place. Volunteers understand the laws in their jurisdiction, just as they do in relation to copyright and similar issues when they engage in editing the Wikimedia projects.
 * I realise it is complicated, which is why I suggested seven months ago that the issue be looked into by the Legal team. As I understand it, the volunteers are expected to abide by the requirements of the Code and to obey the laws of their own jurisdiction (of course).  So far I have seen no discussion of what WMF Legal, or staff, want to happen when these requirements are incomptible, and what support they will give to volunteers in that event.  It seems likely that the answer is none.  There was a discussion of this last September and it seems that no progress has been made and that the issue remains unresolved.  Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 05:33, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * If this was true, it would prohibit other companies' employees in the same jurisdiction as WMF from contributing as well as they are not named in the proposed amendment. But in reality, WMF employees happily contribute to other software projects and attend (or even organize) in-person conferences where no such reporting obligations exist or are forbidden by local law, so this does not seem to be preempting WMF employee participation.  --Tim&#160;Landscheidt 10:48, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm still quite unhappy with this. I understand the WMF has a legal obligation to prevent harassment by employees, and has an obligation to protect employees from harassment. At the same time, WMF HR and Legal have an obligation to protect the WMF itself. These goals and the goals of someone who has been harassed do not necessarily align. I believe in the good intentions of the WMF, but I'd rather not base policy on my current beliefs on other peoples' intentions.
 * To move this forward, I would like to suggest a possible solution: Make the non-WMF members of the committee the initial point of contact for complaints involving WMF employees (or even for all complaints -- other issues can then be forwarded to WMF members). These members have no legal obligation to report to HR and Legal, and can therefore advise the victim to escalate the issue to WMF HR/Legal, but cannot (and will not) force this. Valhallasw (talk) 10:31, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
 * An alternative is . Nemo 13:14, 10 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Hi all, I just want to clarify a few things from MBrar's comments. The complexity with these kind of international law issues isn't one that we can research and answer. One might be able to come up with several legal doctrines that could apply, but without more details about the facts of a specific case, it's simply an impossible to answer question. I really want to emphasize that this isn't a new issue though. Any activity on the Internet, or any activity at all that can reach multiple people in different places can create the risk of different laws applying. If someone lives in a place that has particularly strict laws, it's possible that it could create a conflict with this code of conduct and that person might have to withdraw from the committee to obey the law. But we're not aware of any such requirements or restrictions. If something does happen, either due to an unusual law or a misunderstanding, we have the Legal Fees Assistance Program that could help because we do want to support users who are providing their time to help manage the projects. -Jrogers (WMF) (talk) 20:40, 28 April 2016 (UTC)


 * In general, I think we can give a vote of confidence to this process as defined in the draft, and be open for improvements if specific problems arise. I also think we can give a vote of confidence to the first Committee to polish processes based on their actual experiences. Otherwise we can discuss the perfect theoretical scenario forever, presumably none of us having run into these types of legal/process situations before. I'm not talking about this section about confidentiality only, but in general for all our remaining discussions about this draft. We work on open wikis and free software, and we are used to the notion of release and improve based on practice. Ultimately what will prevail is the good criteria of a competent and trusted Committee.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 09:00, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I do not know exactly who we refers to in this vote of confidence. I do not regard this Code has having the confidence of anyone but a handful of members of the WMF staff.  If the intention of this assertion is to declare the Code finished, then it is a WMF staff policy imposed on the volunteer community by WMF authority.   Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 21:17, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
 * If I understand you correctly, this was brought up already and you received a reply in https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACode_of_Conduct%2FDraft&type=revision&diff=2093859&oldid=2093338 --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 06:42, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Indeed, and the way you frame your response supports my point. There are two classes of people, WMF staff and volunteers, to whom this Code will apply, and the proposed Code treats them differently, at the insistence of WMF Legal.  The majority of contributors to the Code are members of staff and the consensus among them appears to be that they approve the Code and a senior member of staff is taking it upon himself to declare the Code agreed.  The minority of contributors are volunteers and the weight of opinion among them is that they are not happy with the process by which the Code is being implemented.  Your response is that when a volunteer expresses an opinion they have been "answered" by a member of staff: the clear implication being that a point is settled once a member of staff has given their opinion on the subject, and that the member of staff's opinion is somehow binding.  This does not look like a discussion among equals seeking to develop a consensus -- it looks like a mere volunteer raising a point which is then dismissed by the authority of a staff member, a one-way conversation in which volunteers propose and staff members dispose.  This is why I call the Code a WMF Staff Policy -- it is a policy which for all practical purposes has been developed by WMF staff members as a formal WMF team goal and which will be imposed on volunteers by the authority of the WMF acting through a WMF approved committee backed by a WMF Staff team.  It seems important to staff members not to accept this view and I do not understand why.  Why the reluctance to admit that the Code is imposed by WMF authority and accept the consequences of doing so, for better or worse?  Why the effort to make it appear, against the evidence, that this is a consensus across both classes of the community?  Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 09:10, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I do not see how my personal response implied "that the member of staff's opinion is somehow binding" - my sole intention was pointing to a previous comment that looked like a potential answer to your question, without me necessarily endorsing anything. If you think that it "does not look like a discussion among equals", what is your proposal to get more equality and involvement? --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 09:43, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I made various suggestions for wider involvement several months ago. They were not taken up and it is too late to rectify the situation, which is regrettable.  I note that you do not dispute my assessment of the present status of this Code.  Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 16:28, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * If you have specific past comments you're referring to, feel free to explicitly point to them for the sake of a focused discussion. Regarding your last sentence, I note that I neither dispute nor endorse your assessment. --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 12:40, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The comments are in the archived pages and the links are in an earlier posting in this thread, if you wish to look at the history. There seems little point in revisiting them as the work here has taken a different track over the last eight months or so: I have already said that I see no point in trying to rewind those discussions and I can hardly suppose that anyone else does either.  The irony of a staff member apparently giving permission to a volunteer to do something in the context of a discussion about whether or not they should be regarded as equals is not lost on me.  Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 07:45, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Let's keep this section on-topic, please. I have created and you can continue this discussion there. Thank you.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 09:47, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

When will this code of conduct be implemented?
I have seen this draft go on for months so I was just wondering if there as a plan to actually implement it and when. Reguyla (talk) 18:55, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Your question is answered a few sections above, under Talk:Code_of_Conduct/Draft. Yes, the plan is to implement it. No, there is no definitive timeline. No, that is not a problem. Valhallasw (talk) 19:46, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks, hopefully sooner rather than later because urrently there are a lot of serious conduct issues with the ops on IRC that need to be addressed. Until the WMF acknowledges that at least some of the WMF's conduct standards apply at the IRC channels, the problems are going to continue. Not that I think anyone will do anything about the ops conduct there, but I am hopeful. Reguyla (talk) 23:48, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
 * For anyone curious, this complaint seems to be related to Wikimedia Forum. Anomie (talk) 13:34, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
 * It has more to do with the attitude that the ops on IRC can do whatever they want.


 * These ops are the first things some potential editors see when learning about our sites. For example, RD and a couple others recently ran off a Smithsonian employee who had come to IRC to learn about the sites. They were then accused of being me and blocked because they lived in the DC area and used Verizon like millions of other people. Because anyone who lives in the DC area and uses Verizon must be me presumably. The pettiness, retaliation and lying by admins and ops on IRC and even on wiki needs to be dealt with by the WMF. The WMF needs to start establishing that admins are accountable to policy just as editors are and this code of conduct will help that as long as the WMF is actually interested in improving the environment of the sites that is. Because the current community processes have completely failed. Otherwise, quite frankly, unless the WMF is going to deal with this problem, it's only going to get worse and the sites are going continue to decline in participation and reputation as they have been. Reguyla (talk) 14:37, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
 * While this CoC is being approved, and myself keep receiving and processing complaints about conduct in Wikimedia technical spaces. You can reach to us privately. PS: let me insist on the "Wikimedia technical spaces" part, which is the scope of this CoC.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 08:30, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I understand and it's good to know you are taking questions and inquiries about ongoing problems. No offense to you guys because your intentions seem pure here but I have seen nothing from the WMF to make me believe that they/you will do anything about these problems. Maybe your hands are tied, I don't really know, but the signs of the problems are all over the place. I have advocated reform myself for the last 4 years and that led to a retaliatory ban to shut me up on EnWP and IRC, so although you may say that you are available and open to notifications of problems, I'm not really seeing much action on the problems. Including getting this code of conduct implemented. Good luck! Reguyla (talk) 16:48, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Tracking current reports
I have mentioned that and I receive reports related to conduct on a regular basis, since we joined the WMF (2012), and we do our best handling them. Today I have created an internal document to start tracking new reports and our activity around them. As of now only Andre and I have access to this document. I don't expect this doc to cause any relevant changes in the way we are handling these reports, but at least we will be able to provide anonymized data. I'm thinking of our quarterly reviews as a good time and place to provide this information, under .--Qgil-WMF (talk) 09:12, 21 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Related, just for the record: Talk:Code_of_Conduct/Draft/Archive_2.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 10:36, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * If possible may I also recommend some kind of report that mentions the remedial action. I know that the WMF has been periodically global banning a few people a year in the last couple years but it might be good for people to see what other actions might be done and how often. Another possibility would be to create a WMF staff action wiki like the one the Arbcom uses to track case info. Of course it would have to be restricted to certain staff but it would give continuity of problems. Reguyla (talk) 01:56, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes adding a summary of actions taken is a good idea. I'm personally inclined not to create a formal structure around this provisional internal document. I'd rather wait to the CoC to be enacted, the Committee to be created, and then let them decide how to move forward.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 09:51, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Well I hope the new CoC doesn't turn out to be another Arbcom. Reguyla (talk) 19:20, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Wider participation, still
A continuation of Talk:Code_of_Conduct/Draft/Archive_2.

Let's check what is being done and what could be done to increase the promotion of this CoC discussion, with the aim of widening the participation especially from volunteers. Space by space (feel free to edit the list below adding relevant data):
 * Physical spaces
 * There was a session at the Wikimedia Developer Summit 2016. (FIXME link)
 * There was not a session at the Wikimedia Hackathon 2016. Moriel and I discussed briefly about organizing one, but we decided not to because sessions are not the core activity of the hackathon. On retrospective, perhaps we should have scheduled a session.
 * Wikimania Hackathon 2016, we still have time to organize a session.
 * Not 100% physical, but we could organize a Tech talk.
 * Online spaces
 * MediaWiki.org, wikitech.wikimedia.org: there were suggestions about a sitenotice, let's discuss. Sitenotice or watchlist notice, one of both could work.
 * Phabricator is not equipped with a tool to broadcast a message to everybody. We can add a note in the homepage.
 * Gerrit is not designed at all to broadcast messages, but it can be assumed that all Gerrit users can be found in in other technical channels.
 * Technical mailing lists, Matt has been sending requests for feedback and updates to several lists (latest list of lists is wikitech-l, engineering, design, wiki-research-l, analytics, hackathonorganizers). We could discuss a one-time message to all the lists, with a request to the admins of each list to pay attention to wikitech-l or wherever source we decide to forward other communications they find interesting for their audiences.
 * Technical IRC channels, this is a bit tricky, but we could post a one-time comment in each channel, pointing to the source page, with the same request to the admins of the channel.
 * Etherpad is not designed for broadcasting messages at all. Etherpad users can be found in other spaces.

Let's start discussing the sitenotice idea. From all the options is the one that would bring more attention for lesser effort.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 09:46, 5 May 2016 (UTC)


 * What message do you envisage being conveyed in these channels, and to whom? Will it be an invitation to enthusiasts to participate and potentially restart the drafting process from scratch; an invitation to all interested to make minor or cosmetic changes only; an open call to the tire community to approve or disapprove without further changes; or a one-way announcement to the world at large that the policy is now finished and will shortly be in effect?  The message and its intended audience will surely help to determine the channels you choose.  Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 10:31, 5 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I would wait to the next request for comments, and then I would post a short intro about the CoC draft and an invitation for everybody to participate.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 08:40, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

A one off comment in IRC channels is not sufficient. To be noticed all channels where the CoC is going to be enforced will need their channel notices changed to advise everyone who logs in. A good grace time is at least a month.

For Etherpad, advising regular Wikimedians is insufficient as the tool is used by all sorts of people, such as GLAM professionals who may hardly ever log in to a Wikimedia project. Etherpad will need to be changed so that there is an advisory notice before use. Presumably global bans for harassment on etherpad will be meaningless for anonymous accounts with no Wikimedia project associated accounts.

I suggest that any notice avoid inviting volunteers to comment. At this late stage it is virtually impossible for volunteers to get anything non-trivial changed. --Fæ (talk) 09:20, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Adding notices to IRC channels sounds like a good idea. Of course we have to invite participants to comment. That is the point of aiming for wider participation. While Page: Code of Conduct has gone through extensive review and it is unlikely that completely new ideas and major changes will arrive at this point, the other two pages "Cases" and "Committee" haven't gone through systematic review yet, and may still be changed or extended in fundamental ways.
 * Introducing an advisory notice in etherpads is a good idea, within the possibilities of Etherpad. It is possible to customize the default text of new etherpads. We can specify a sentence clarifying that the Code of Conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces is applicable to etherpads used for Wikimedia technical activities. Do you mean to do this once the CoC is enacted or also before, as part of this campaign for wider participation? Whether reports of harassment via Etherpad will be meaningless or meaningful, that will depend on the reports and their context. It is not something that we should address in this section.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 10:16, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you should try a break from "managing" this CoC and closing down discussion that does not follow the workflow that you have imposed without any consensus. As an example, two consultants were paid to provide professional advice, please provide a link to it rather than suppressing questions about it. If necessary you can create yet another section on this talk page to post the advice received. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 20:48, 9 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I think we must applaud the WMF staff for deciding to open up a wider discussion. It seems rather likely that there will be a rehash of the arguments here over social justice, and a concomitant delay in the finalisation of the text, but at least when the dust is settled the Code will have a plausible element of community consensus,  I wonder what the proposed timeline is now?  Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 21:26, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Changing the Code once enacted
In the course of another discussion, the assertion was made "The CoC is a living document, if any sentence in it proves to be problematic in real cases, we will be able to contest it and amend it." It is not clear to me that this is correct, since the Code as written has no provision for changes. It is also not clear who "we" refers to in this assertion: is it anyone discussing it at this page, the Committee, the DevRel team, the WMF Board, ... . So who has this ultimate authority over the Code and how will they exercise it? Rogol Domedonfors (talk) 05:23, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with you that the amendment process is something that needs to be spelled out. It's one of the things I've been thinking about. Mattflaschen-WMF (talk) 01:04, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Technical Collaboration instead of Developer Relations
The Code of Conduct draft includes some mentions to WMF's Developer Relations team. This is a proposal to change Developer Relations for the Technical Collaboration team. Last January we combined Developer Relations and Community Liaisons into the Technical Collaboration team. Even if Developer Relations continues to exist as a virtual team, I think it would be better to reference to Technical Collaboration, a WMF team in the full sense of the term. This would also mean getting the community liaisons involved, which would in fact reflect better the composition of Wikimedia technical spaces, formed not only by developers but also by other contributors with technical interests.

Note that the relation between the Developer Relations or any other WMF team with the CoC is still open to discussion. This proposal is only about the renaming to Technical Collaboration in the current draft.--Qgil-WMF (talk) 08:53, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
 * --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 11:09, 10 May 2016 (UTC)