Talk:Flow

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The Core Features team has enabled Flow on this talk page.

Previous feedback is on Talk:Flow Portal/Archive2 (using old Liquid Threads), and on our labs server.

 
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Community Liaison job openings at WMF

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Quiddity (WMF)talk contribs

There are currently 2 job openings, and I thought someone here might be interested. Specifically:

  • Community Liaison - this position will initially focus on working with the Flow team and also with the Editing (VisualEditor) team, mostly at non-English wikis; however, a lot of smaller or short-term tasks continually come up, so the WMF is particularly looking for someone who is adaptable, and with diverse interests.
  • Community Liaison (Part time contract) - this part-time position will primarily focus on working with the Mobile teams, as the link explains.

If you need further information, feel free to send an email to cep@lists.wikimedia.org (but do not use this address to apply). Please pass it along, if you know someone who might be interested or a good fit for the Community Engagement team. Thanks!

Sänger S.Gtalk contribs

Are they meant to get some input from outside the ivory tower to the WMF, to finally make them do something for the communities and give the communities at least some input, or are they just meant as salesmen for the useless stuff WMF want to push down the throats of the resistive communities?

Gryllidatalk contribs

Both.

Reply to "Community Liaison job openings at WMF"

Two observations

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Be..anyonetalk contribs

(1) The fastest way to figure out what is or was discussed on a Flow talk page is apparently the "history", why no traditional ToC? I seriously dislike (apparently) endless scroll down interfaces, it's time wasting and expensive (= can cost real money with some mobile broadband plans.)

(2) A link to mw:Topic:S4wsju7dgqc521zu from elsewhere, e.g., Meta, is not exactly obvious, why no traditional subjects with an (n) counter for collisions? That's something Windows users would know.

SPage (WMF)talk contribs

(1) Table of Contents is coming, see Flow/Table of Contents spec.

(2) It's a fundamental architectural decision. You are creating a unique item in a cross-wiki database. A look-up table or aliasing would affect performance. IMO we could provide the wiki markup as well, similar but better than LiquidThread's "More > Link to" choice of URL and wikitext.

Reply to "Two observations"

Timestamps

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Hhhippotalk contribs

After editing my previous post, the "Edited" timestamp showed [object Object] on mouseover. The main timestamp was ok. Reloading the page fixed it.

Quiddity (WMF)talk contribs

This should be fixed once they've finished updating all the timestamp code, which they're currently working on as part of the improvements to the "who edited this post" display. This bug is/was bugzilla:72170. Thanks. :)

Reply to "Timestamps"

Watchlist

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Hhhippotalk contribs

On my watchlist (with both tog-usenewrc and tog-extendwatchlist enabled), I see today's edits to Talk:Sandbox‎ by Nirmos and EBernhardson both listed as belonging to topic [[User:Nirmos]], while in fact EBernhardson edited a different topic.

It's fine with tog-usenewrc disabled, and both edits are shown with tog-extendwatchlist disabled, so they are to some extent recognized as belonging to different "pages".

Update: It's the topic creations, not the comments that behave like this. I'd suggest they should be shown as edits of the board, not of one of the topics.

Quiddity (WMF)talk contribs

Filed as bugzilla:73329. Much thanks. (So many variables to test >.< )

Reply to "Watchlist"

Pages with many discussions

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Daniele Pugliesitalk contribs

In pages like this, where there are a lot of discussions, the previous system is at the moment better of Flow for these reason:

1 - To see all the discussions, you need to go to the bottom and wait that the older discussions are loaded.

2 - While the older discussions are loading, there is nothing that inform the reader about this loading (e.g. balls or an hourglass rotating), so one can think that there no discussions any more.

3 - I don't see any index at the top of the page to check how many discussions are in the page.

Quiddity (WMF)talk contribs

Re: Index - They're currently working on a Table of Contents. Details at Flow/Table of Contents spec and throughout https://trello.com/b/lOh4XCy7/flow-sprint-k There will also be a built-in per-Board search, but that's significantly more complicated and will take a while longer.

Re: Spinner - There used to be a spinner-icon. I don't recall why it was removed, but I've collated all the previous work-cards at https://trello.com/c/tMfu5gzS/ and I'll ask the team to re-examine this one.

Thanks!

Daniele Pugliesitalk contribs

You are welcome. Thank you for your answer. I hope they will solve this issues soon

Daniele Pugliesitalk contribs

I put my "Reply" in the wrong place so the indentation was wrong. Now I realized that I can edit my reply but I can not delete it. I suppose they will solve this issue, too: it can happens that someone do a misclick.

Quiddity (WMF)talk contribs

Being able to Refactor - Move posts, as well as Merge and Split topics - are items on the to-do list.

In the meantime, we're all still learning how this system currently works best, and what changes could and/or should be considered. So, feedback like this is appreciated. :)

Sapertalk contribs

I used flow for a first time today. First, it takes huge amount of screen estate, please see a whole-screen screenshot at c:File:MediaWiki_extension_Flow_screenshot.png (too large to inline it here).

It is impossible to quickly skim through the discussion - to find out huge threads or small threads. It brings the worst of PhpBB world back here to us.

It is impossible to quickly find (CTRL-F, if nothing else helps) if the subject I want to write about has not been raised already.

The twitter-style loading of "more threads" is annoying, I think I see the page footer already but no, after I click down something loads, it seems endless... how do I know I took a quick glimpse of everything?

Maybe this style is ok for some huge community discussion pages (noticeboards), but is probably not good for talk pages. ~~~~

Quiddity (WMF)talk contribs

Thanks for the detailed feedback. The team is currently working on creating a specialized Table of Contents, and also working on a built-in search box. They have some interesting ideas regarding infinite scroll (the twitter-style "loading more"), that require those 2 additional components to function as they see envision it. Once that is all more complete, they'll ask for wide-input on the whole set of components.

Regarding the visual density, there has been discussion about a "width toggle" (between fixed width and full width) because one is easier to read with (particularly on large or wide monitors), and the other is easier to skim with (as you say). There's a new designer working with the team as of last week, and possibly that will bring some further changes to the overall aesthetic, or re-arrangement of the standard elements.

Hope that helps.

Reply to "Pages with many discussions"

Other Extensions in Flow Header

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91.97.47.152talk contribs

The <hovergallery> tag of that Extension is not working in the Flow Header. Will the Flow Header support other extensions?

Quiddity (WMF)talk contribs

Hi, could you tell us a bit more about the error you're seeing, and the setup it's on (mediawiki version, flow version, etc) ? Thanks.

Reply to "Other Extensions in Flow Header"

How to opt-in?

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Fgnievinskitalk contribs

Where to go to request Flow to be deployed on a particular Talk page, please? I'm looking for a more pragmatic answer than "In late 2014, we will increase the number of places where Flow is deployed; these deployments will occur with consensus from community members who use those discussion spaces." Thanks.

Quiddity (WMF)talk contribs

They're currently collecting specific requests for Wikis/Namespaces/Pages, and then considering further rollouts as time/resources allows. E.g. There are a few Wiki that have requested rollout to either a test-page or an entire namespace.

They're not expanding beyond the current test pages, for a few more months, but please let me know where you'd suggest/request that Flow be enabled, so that I can add it to the list? Thanks. :)

Gryllidatalk contribs

Many people will want to use it for their own talk page.

Reply to "How to opt-in?"

Notifications for moderated topics

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Jay8gtalk contribs

Flow really shouldn't send notifications for moderated topics. This is frustrating for me, as many pages on my watchlist keep getting spam topics, and is confusing, especially for new users, as there is no indication of the hidden topic on the board page, where the notification takes you. (Alternately, it could send you to the topic page, but I don't think that would be really useful.)

Klipetalk contribs

There may occasionally be good reasons to unhide a topic... Let's imagine the following: user A creates a topic, then user B sees the notification and hides the topic, then the notification gets removed from all other users watching the board... The probability is high that only user A (obviously watching the topic) will realise that the topic was hidden and possibly react. Is this what we want? Doesn't it make it vandals life too easy?

In general, I would prefer the notification for any new topic to send me on the topic page instead of on the parent board. If then I see that the topic is moderated, that's not a big deal.

Having notifications send me to the topic page would also make more sense in the long term, when we'll be able to link a topic to multiple boards: if I watch the board A and a topic created on another board later gets linked to that board A, then I want to be notified of the fact that there is an additional topic on board A although it may be older than many other topics already present on board A. Finding it back on the board may not be easy.

Hhhippotalk contribs

It's not really possible to 'take back' a notification when the topic gets hidden, in particular if the notification was sent by e-mail.

I agree that linking to the topic makes sense, but only if the topic itself is on the watchlist or otherwise triggering the notification (ping etc.). If the trigger is "new topic on a watched board", then there's only one notification for possibly several new topics, so the link has to go to the board.

To avoid confusion if the topic was hidden in the meantime, the link function should be "show me all activity on that board between (timestamp in the notification) and (now)", for example like this. Linking an existing topic to a watched board would count as a 'change', so the topic would be marked.

Reply to "Notifications for moderated topics"

Will Flow ever be the real LQT 4.0

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DaSchtalk contribs

Can we ever expect to have a migration from LQT 2 to Flow, so that we can assume, that Flow is LQT 4.0 and not just some kind of incompatible never ready software that's only use-case is to upset users?

Klipetalk contribs
We'll be working on a conversion script that turns LQT discussions into Flow topics, in late 2014.
Quiddity (WMF)talk contribs

They're working on that migration script right now. A large quantity of the work is done, and it's currently going through testing and edge-case discovery. Once it's had some more bug-fixes and polish, they'll be doing some public demonstrations of page-conversions, for wider feedback and analysis.

If you'd like to follow the details, see https://trello.com/c/6OqlxIYI/ for the product management notes, and https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/119243/ for the WIP code.

Gryllidatalk contribs

Are we still planning on moving existing classic talk pages?

To my understanding we just need to be able to migrate them as one post, with appropriate split functionality (I split a discussion in two, its history entry of one of them will say where I split it from, all history will remain in the oldest post and be linked).

I.e. I create topics "foo" and "bar" on a classic talk page which has archives. Then:

  1. We move it to a single Flow board post titled "Migrated".
  2. We move archives to single Flow board post titled "Archive 1", "Archive 2", etc.
  3. Users split the discussions by hand.
  4. For each thing they split out of the big post, the history says:
    Gryllida split Topic:43546554DSF from Topic:FDGFD34534
    Gryllida split Topic:FGH345 from Topic:FDGFD34534
  5. Anyone who wants to see history will consult a post history which will, in its first edit, link to the original Topic:FDGFD34534 post (the oldest one on the corresponding page) which holds the whole talk page history from the classic talk page.
  6. The end result is that all discussions are searchable, they are more or less correct headlines and proper TOC. Where people want to reply, they need to do some more splitting of a single thread into invididual messages.
  7. All this functionality is not redundant, because a lot of this will be useful for refactoring Flow-enabled discussions in big RFCs.

I had raised all this at this topic but got completely ignored...

Quiddity (WMF)talk contribs

Sorry :(

I'm really looking forward to being able to refactor Flow topics, so that we can do things like move this tangent, into that other/original topic. Can we move the discussion there, so as not to bother DaSch and Klipe, and so that we keep it all in one place?

Gryllidatalk contribs

This should be on the roadmap really early as it makes migrating things from classic pages to Flow pages easier (and doable!).

I'm OK with it being discussed in the thread I linked. I copied my comment there.

Reply to "Will Flow ever be the real LQT 4.0"

Typo in topic

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Be..anyonetalk contribs

On Template_talk:Extension you might be able to see how I miserably failed to fix a typo in topic Imcompatible with Template:EL with the help of {{delete|typo}}. ~~~~

Quiddity (WMF)talk contribs

Hmm, that should have been possible to fix by clicking "Change subject" at the top-right of the thread (e.g. in the new copy you made at Thread:Template talk:Extension/Incompatible with Template:EL). But possibly there's a Liquidthreads bug that I'm not familiar with.

Regarding Flow, is/was it easy enough to find the "Edit title" link in the topic's actionmenu?

Be..anyonetalk contribs

If that exists I certainly missed it, that's why I pulled a {{delete}} and reported the issue here. But there is a good chance that it's only me, because I wanted to fix my typo immediately. And of course I know and like the "talk page culture" as is, that's orthogonal to the Flow design goals: When I have to fix my colons in talk page indents I have an idea why you are trying something new ;-)

Reply to "Typo in topic"